Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

That kick he did to Vegeta was off guard and did no damage.

And yet it sent him downwards. But if Vegeta were so much stronger than Zamasu, then that kick shouldn't have moved him at all. Just look at Goku vs. Jiren in ep. 109; Goku was so much weaker than Jiren, that his blows barely even moved Jiren. And yet Zamasu's kick was able to send Vegeta downwards, instead of just doing nothing. To me, that is meaningful.

Zamasu can't be Blue level because Fused Zamasu would be already GoD tier without his Corrupted form.

I might actually believe you if episode 57 hadn't shown me Zamasu trading blows and overpowering for a moment SSB Goku, and holding down both SSB Goku and SSJ2 Trunks.

Perhaps there was miscommunication between the writers. Maybe some wanted Zamasu to be SSB level, and others didn't. But I cannot completely disregard episode 57. You understand.

[Jesus-is Lord]

You got beyond roasted in debate, so instead of admitting he's right or even trying to debunk his claim...you just make a mute point and "cancel" (it's really running from) the debate. Oh gosh, getting youtube déjà-vu.

And pointing the atrcious power scailing does not mean that mr. Brainiac is arguing that if someone is stronger then someone, the weaker person shouldn't be able to do anything - it's more about the MAGNITUDE of differnce of strength. Majin vegeta was weaker then fat buu and he held his own for a little, super vegeta was a joke compared to cell but was able to damage him with final flash, 16 was able to grab and hold perfect cell - but having a fodder ssj2 swap hands with rose in a competitive battle is unacceptable, it's worse then having ssj goten being able to fight hold his own against Kidd buu. Does that make sense? No, ssj rose should have been to subdue instantly like he did in the manga.

You Loss This Debate My Friend

Are you 12?

If Zamasu were so much weaker than a Super Saiyan Blue, he certainly wouldn't be able to inflict pain upon Vegeta, even if he were just in Base form. In the next episode, too, Zamasu was seen smiling while pursuing Vegeta, whereas if he were so much weaker than a Super Saiyan Blue, Zamasu should have been destroyed into pieces after having had to fight a Super Saiyan Blue opponent all on his own.

You, however, have yet to show me an instance when Zamasu was utterly stomped by a Super Saiyan Blue opponent.

But he can hurt base Vegeta since Zamasu is SS2 tier.

Zamasu was stomped in episodes 61 and 63 by Goku.

That's kinda a rude back-hand comment, for someone just pointing out how your claims of power scailing are false.

[ZombieVito]

That kick he did to Vegeta was off guard and did no damage.

And yet it sent him downwards. But if Vegeta were so much stronger than Zamasu, then that kick shouldn't have moved him at all. Just look at Goku vs. Jiren in ep. 109; Goku was so much weaker than Jiren, that his blows barely even moved Jiren. And yet Zamasu's kick was able to send Vegeta downwards, instead of just doing nothing. To me, that is meaningful.

Zamasu can't be Blue level because Fused Zamasu would be already GoD tier without his Corrupted form.

I might actually believe you if episode 57 hadn't shown me Zamasu trading blows and overpowering for a moment SSB Goku, and holding down both SSB Goku and SSJ2 Trunks.

You do understand that Vegeta didn't see Zamasu coming right? Same reason Piccolo's kick sent Freeza away on Namek or Trunks kick sent Boo away when he went to rescue his father.

Jiren didn't move because he saw Goku attacking and was ready for it.

The manga also had Zamasu fighting on par with Blue Goku for a moment and he's way weaker.

[Jesus-is Lord]

That kick he did to Vegeta was off guard and did no damage.

And yet it sent him downwards. But if Vegeta were so much stronger than Zamasu, then that kick shouldn't have moved him at all. Just look at Goku vs. Jiren in ep. 109; Goku was so much weaker than Jiren, that his blows barely even moved Jiren. And yet Zamasu's kick was able to send Vegeta downwards, instead of just doing nothing. To me, that is meaningful.

Zamasu can't be Blue level because Fused Zamasu would be already GoD tier without his Corrupted form.

I might actually believe you if episode 57 hadn't shown me Zamasu trading blows and overpowering for a moment SSB Goku, and holding down both SSB Goku and SSJ2 Trunks.

You do understand that Vegeta didn't see Zamasu coming right? Same reason Piccolo's kick sent Freeza away on Namek or Trunks kick sent Boo away when he went to rescue his father.

Jiren didn't move because he saw Goku attacking and was ready for it.

The manga also had Zamasu fighting on par with Blue Goku for a moment and he's way weaker.

That's a lie, zamsu never EVER fought on par with goku blue. Goku went into blue to fight zamsu, but quickly realized how much of a JOKE he is, and powered down to ssj, then got caught in zamsu magic which drained a lot of his energy (call back to bojack gang Energy zap I think..?). Goku came back, used blue to do mafuba and failed. Then went ssj god and STOMPED zamsu, so no: the manga did power scailing better here.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Another facet of fighting I often try to factor in when powerscaling is the way characters tend to fight.

For example, Freeza often likes to simply take hits from weaker opponents, so he's more likely to flaunt his power and allow his opponents to hit him in order to show they're not a threat to him; conversely, a fighter like Goku doesn't often simply tank attacks, so he's more likely to be thrown around by blows from weaker opponents. In a bit of a reverse situation, though, when Freeza faces someone stronger than him, his fighting style means he doesn't take well to getting thrashed on, whereas Goku can bounce back from strong hits more easily.

[HeroR]

I doubt that since the fact of the matter most people didn’t follow the manga even when it was ahead. Only hardcore fans did.

And the Super manga isn’t that constant either.

It's not constant now, but it may change in the future. In the past, people did actually read the DB/DBZ manga when it was ahead.

Manga. In the anime, Goku never said Trunks could beat Zamasu. That and Black was certain that Zamasu by himself could kill Trunks while he held off Goku and Vegeta with his clones.

And why would Future Zamasu be the exact same strength as Present Zamasu when he’s 13 years older?

Zamasu isn't a Saiyan that gets stronger after every fight. Trunks in SSJ2 was fighting him in Episode 63 in the anime. He was beating him too until Black interfered and stabbed Trunks. Future Zamasu being SSB tier is laughable.

The Dragon Ball manga is the original, written by the original author in a major magazine. Toyo is writing in a small magazine and the volumes sell okay and he isn’t the original author.

Trunks had Super Saiyan Rage in 63, not Super Saiyan 2. That and Zamasu let himself get grabbed and mockingly asked him, what are you going to do? That along with Goku and Trunks saying Zamasu has a lousy guard so he gets tag all the time.

[Bullza]

I think I might finally start the series over from the beginning tomorrow. See if I can try and make any more sense of it now that I know information from later on and also the information from the manga.

So if I start asking any questions about the old sagas then you'll know why.

I think the Battle of Gods saga was pretty straight forward. There was a few questionable things though like whether Gohan was using his Ultimate state against Beerus or not.

Trunks had Super Saiyan Rage in 63, not Super Saiyan 2.

Are you referring to when Trunks fought Zamasu right after blasting Black into the mountain? If so he wasn't Super Saiyan Rage at that point, infact he might not have even been Super Saiyan 2 either. Just regular Super Saiyan.

[HeroR]

That kick he did to Vegeta was off guard and did no damage.

And yet it sent him downwards. But if Vegeta were so much stronger than Zamasu, then that kick shouldn't have moved him at all. Just look at Goku vs. Jiren in ep. 109; Goku was so much weaker than Jiren, that his blows barely even moved Jiren. And yet Zamasu's kick was able to send Vegeta downwards, instead of just doing nothing. To me, that is meaningful.

Zamasu can't be Blue level because Fused Zamasu would be already GoD tier without his Corrupted form.

I might actually believe you if episode 57 hadn't shown me Zamasu trading blows and overpowering for a moment SSB Goku, and holding down both SSB Goku and SSJ2 Trunks.

You do understand that Vegeta didn't see Zamasu coming right? Same reason Piccolo's kick sent Freeza away on Namek or Trunks kick sent Boo away when he went to rescue his father.

Jiren didn't move because he saw Goku attacking and was ready for it.

The manga also had Zamasu fighting on par with Blue Goku for a moment and he's way weaker.

Immortality only makes it so you don’t die. It doesn’t explain why Zamasu’s reflexes and speed were so sharp that he could keep up with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in all his encounters and later Rage.

That and Black was sure Zamasu could kill Trunks by himself despite Trunks having Rage and Goku and Vegeta wanted to help him. If Black’s hope was that Zamasu would wear Trunks down and then kill him, that wouldn’t match why Goku and Vegeta were in such a hurry to go to Trunks’ side.

I think I might finally start the series over from the beginning tomorrow. See if I can try and make any more sense of it now that I know information from later on and also the information from the manga.

So if I start asking any questions about the old sagas then you'll know why.

I think the Battle of Gods saga was pretty straight forward. There was a few questionable things though like whether Gohan was using his Ultimate state against Beerus or not.

Trunks had Super Saiyan Rage in 63, not Super Saiyan 2.

Are you referring to when Trunks fought Zamasu right after blasting Black into the mountain? If so he wasn't Super Saiyan Rage at that point, infact he might not have even been Super Saiyan 2 either. Just regular Super Saiyan.

That was Rage. And he didn’t even fight Zamasu. He grabbed him and Zamasu didn’t even try to free himself. He instead mocked about what he was going to do.

[shadowfox87]

The Dragon Ball manga is the original, written by the original author in a major magazine. Toyo is writing in a small magazine and the volumes sell okay and he isn’t the original author.

Trunks had Super Saiyan Rage in 63, not Super Saiyan 2. That and Zamasu let himself get grabbed and mockingly asked him, what are you going to do? That along with Goku and Trunks saying Zamasu has a lousy guard so he gets tag all the time.

And you think Toei is the original author? Both the anime and manga are being supervised by Toriyama. The story officially on the cover of the manga is credited to Toriyama, not Toyotaro.

Trunks used SS Rage against Black in 63. Then he got beat up and used regular SSJ2 against Future Zamasu. As I said previously, Zamasu is immortal so he can take any damage he wants, but he is overall not very strong.

[HeroR]

The Dragon Ball manga is the original, written by the original author in a major magazine. Toyo is writing in a small magazine and the volumes sell okay and he isn’t the original author.

Trunks had Super Saiyan Rage in 63, not Super Saiyan 2. That and Zamasu let himself get grabbed and mockingly asked him, what are you going to do? That along with Goku and Trunks saying Zamasu has a lousy guard so he gets tag all the time.

And you think Toei is the original author? Both the anime and manga are being supervised by Toriyama. The story officially on the cover of the manga is credited to Toriyama, not Toyotaro.

Trunks used SS Rage against Black in 63. Then he got beat up and used regular SSJ2 against Future Zamasu. As I said previously, Zamasu is immortal so he can take any damage he wants, but he is overall not very strong.

No, but the anime is the main product in this case, not just an adaptation of the original like Dragon Ball and Z. So there is less reason to follow a manga adaptation that is in a small magazine.

That was Rage, not Super Saiyan 2. And immortal only allows Zamasu not to die. It wouldn’t give him the speed and reflexes to keep up with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in all of his encounters.

[Bergamo]

The Dragon Ball manga is the original, written by the original author in a major magazine. Toyo is writing in a small magazine and the volumes sell okay and he isn’t the original author.

Trunks had Super Saiyan Rage in 63, not Super Saiyan 2. That and Zamasu let himself get grabbed and mockingly asked him, what are you going to do? That along with Goku and Trunks saying Zamasu has a lousy guard so he gets tag all the time.

And you think Toei is the original author? Both the anime and manga are being supervised by Toriyama. The story officially on the cover of the manga is credited to Toriyama, not Toyotaro.

Trunks used SS Rage against Black in 63. Then he got beat up and used regular SSJ2 against Future Zamasu. As I said previously, Zamasu is immortal so he can take any damage he wants, but he is overall not very strong.

No, but the anime is the main product in this case, not just an adaptation of the original like Dragon Ball and Z. So there is less reason to follow a manga adaptation that is in a small magazine.

That was Rage, not Super Saiyan 2. And immortal only allows Zamasu not to die. It wouldn’t give him the speed and reflexes to keep up with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in all of his encounters.

I swear if someone tries to use the "main product" argument one more time I will lose my head. Do you know what is a good reason to follow an adaptation? Quality. Do you know what is completely unrelated to profits? Quality.

[shadowfox87]

No, but the anime is the main product in this case, not just an adaptation of the original like Dragon Ball and Z. So there is less reason to follow a manga adaptation that is in a small magazine.

Lol, DB originally started in Shonen Jump which was also considered a "small" magazine at a time. DBS is in V-Jump. The size of the magazine is irrelevant. What is considered "main product" is irrelevant. What's relevant is which one is closer to Toriyama's draft and which one he finds less annoying. He's already literally stated that when he supervises the anime's storyboard, he always finds something that "bugs" him while with Toyotaro he can take it easy, and give it the ok right off the bat. Tatsuya Nagamine, the director of the upcoming DBS movie, even stated when asked if it was difficult to adapt Toriyama's scripts, he replied Toriyama is known best for manga, so it is difficult he said to adapt something for the movie. This why it resulted in 180 mins and that he had to cut it by half.

That was Rage, not Super Saiyan 2. And immortal only allows Zamasu not to die. It wouldn’t give him the speed and reflexes to keep up with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in all of his encounters.

There was no blue aura or white eyes when Trunks was fighting Future Zamasu. He used Rage on Black and SSJ2 on Zamasu. Then he grabbed and him and planned to self-destruct, hoping that it would be enough to destroy him even if he was immortal because at that time, immortality was considered just regeneration.

[Bergamo]

No, but the anime is the main product in this case, not just an adaptation of the original like Dragon Ball and Z. So there is less reason to follow a manga adaptation that is in a small magazine.

Lol, DB originally started in Shonen Jump which was also considered a "small" magazine at a time. DBS is in V-Jump. The size of the magazine is irrelevant. What is considered "main product" is irrelevant. What's relevant is which one is closer to Toriyama's draft and which one he finds less annoying. He's already literally stated that when he supervises the anime's storyboard, he always finds something that "bugs" him while with Toyotaro he can take it easy, and give it the ok right off the bat. Tatsuya Nagamine, the director of the upcoming DBS movie, even stated when asked if it was difficult to adapt Toriyama's scripts, he replied Toriyama is known best for manga, so it is difficult he said to adapt something for the movie. This why it resulted in 180 mins and that he had to cut it by half.

That was Rage, not Super Saiyan 2. And immortal only allows Zamasu not to die. It wouldn’t give him the speed and reflexes to keep up with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in all of his encounters.

There was no blue aura or white eyes when Trunks was fighting Future Zamasu. He used Rage on Black and SSJ2 on Zamasu. Then he grabbed and him and planned to self-destruct, hoping that it would be enough to destroy him even if he was immortal because at that time, immortality was considered just regeneration.

In 2019 when the DBS Manga is ahead of the anime, let's see how many anime fans don't read it because it's not the main product. Dragon Ball is Dragon Ball. The manga probably would have been as popular as the anime if it wasn't so far behind.

[Marlowe89]

That's a lie, zamsu never EVER fought on par with goku blue. Goku went into blue to fight zamsu, but quickly realized how much of a JOKE he is, and powered down to ssj, then got caught in zamsu magic which drained a lot of his energy (call back to bojack gang Energy zap I think..?). Goku came back, used blue to do mafuba and failed. Then went ssj god and STOMPED zamsu, so no: the manga did power scailing better here.

There's a crucial point to be made about your example that really puts a spotlight on that elephant in the room a few people refuse to acknowledge, and that's the manga's frequent use of clarification. It doesn't matter if it's about power scaling, fighting techniques or other distinct mechanics. There's always something specified and painstakingly elaborated on in almost every chapter; hell, some of the manga's detractors have criticized it for providing too much exposition.

Meanwhile, people in this very thread, right now - including those who prefer Toei's version of Super - can't even agree with each other on how strong Future Zamasu is supposed to be in the anime. That's pretty fucking telling if you ask me.

[Jesus-is Lord]

No, but the anime is the main product in this case, not just an adaptation of the original like Dragon Ball and Z. So there is less reason to follow a manga adaptation that is in a small magazine.

Lol, DB originally started in Shonen Jump which was also considered a "small" magazine at a time. DBS is in V-Jump. The size of the magazine is irrelevant. What is considered "main product" is irrelevant. What's relevant is which one is closer to Toriyama's draft and which one he finds less annoying. He's already literally stated that when he supervises the anime's storyboard, he always finds something that "bugs" him while with Toyotaro he can take it easy, and give it the ok right off the bat. Tatsuya Nagamine, the director of the upcoming DBS movie, even stated when asked if it was difficult to adapt Toriyama's scripts, he replied Toriyama is known best for manga, so it is difficult he said to adapt something for the movie. This why it resulted in 180 mins and that he had to cut it by half.

That was Rage, not Super Saiyan 2. And immortal only allows Zamasu not to die. It wouldn’t give him the speed and reflexes to keep up with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in all of his encounters.

There was no blue aura or white eyes when Trunks was fighting Future Zamasu. He used Rage on Black and SSJ2 on Zamasu. Then he grabbed and him and planned to self-destruct, hoping that it would be enough to destroy him even if he was immortal because at that time, immortality was considered just regeneration.

In 2019 when the DBS Manga is ahead of the anime, let's see how many anime fans don't read it because it's not the main product. Dragon Ball is Dragon Ball. The manga probably would have been as popular as the anime if it wasn't so far behind.

I know, I had to rub my eyes really hard and give myself a good facepalm before I could read another word he said, why must people have to go and start screaming "main product" - first of all - they think main product = More canon which is false.
2nd, Um.... I got to dissagree with you there bud. I don't think the manga will ever be more popular then the anime, but the manga would be looked way more favorably. That's for sure.

[RandomGuy96]

Perhaps there was miscommunication between the writers. Maybe some wanted Zamasu to be SSB level, and others didn't. But I cannot completely disregard episode 57. You understand.

This is a good example of Toei inconsistency in action, similar to infamous cases like Pure Boo being somehow stronger than Gohan-Boo yet a decent match against Mr. Boo, and equal to SS3 Goku who can't even slightly scratch an off-guard Gotenks-Boo. The manga which generally sticks closer to Toriyama's outline (with seemingly closer supervision) consistently depicts Zamasu as weaker than even SS1-tier and not able to damage god-level characters at all. He'd probably get his butt kicked by Cell.

That's a lie, zamsu never EVER fought on par with goku blue. Goku went into blue to fight zamsu, but quickly realized how much of a JOKE he is, and powered down to ssj, then got caught in zamsu magic which drained a lot of his energy (call back to bojack gang Energy zap I think..?). Goku came back, used blue to do mafuba and failed. Then went ssj god and STOMPED zamsu, so no: the manga did power scailing better here.

There's a crucial point to be made about your example that really puts a spotlight on that elephant in the room a few people refuse to acknowledge, and that's the manga's frequent use of clarification. It doesn't matter if it's about power scaling, fighting techniques or other distinct mechanics. There's always something specified and painstakingly elaborated on in almost every chapter; hell, some of the manga's detractors have criticized it for providing too much exposition.

Meanwhile, people in this very thread, right now - including those who prefer Toei's version of Super - can't even agree with each other on how strong Future Zamasu is supposed to be in the anime. That's pretty fucking telling if you ask me.

The anime is pretty notable in how it manages to waste so much time while not actually saying anything at all.

But again, I must ask why we are treating this particular series different than any other Toei production. If we applied the same logic to Z we'd end up with Fat Boo > SS2 Goku > base Goku > Ultimate Gohan, or Imperfect Cell >= Krillin > SS Vegeta > base Vegeta > Krillin. And there'd probably be tons of people trying to say there's nothing contradictory about any of that because "he was off guard", "he wasn't trying," "he trained for 1 day," etc.

That's a lie, zamsu never EVER fought on par with goku blue. Goku went into blue to fight zamsu, but quickly realized how much of a JOKE he is, and powered down to ssj, then got caught in zamsu magic which drained a lot of his energy (call back to bojack gang Energy zap I think..?). Goku came back, used blue to do mafuba and failed. Then went ssj god and STOMPED zamsu, so no: the manga did power scailing better here.

Actually, in the first example, he just used a paralysis power similar to what Shin has (he has pretty much the same abilities as Shin: materialization, healing, telekinesis, paralysis, etc.). It worked because Goku was in SS1 and thus close enough to Zamasu's level to be affected; after which he started beating on Goku and not giving him the chance to transform.

He really did not. I believe that you are mistaken. Sure, he challenged them. Did he show any signs of being similar in power to them?

Actually, yes, he did. He hit them and actually caused them pain. He grappled with them and pushed them back. In every way he showed himself to be on their level.

How is an explanation for Trunks becoming stronger irrelevant? That makes no sense. It was obvious to the viewers he was training with Vegeta and the narrator asks if his new power is enough etc etc. Your attempt to quantify it as being thousands of times is irrelevant. The point is, he performed better and an explanation was given and you pretended as though there was nothing in between Trunks losing to Base Black and competing with SSR Black.

Because there effectively wasn't. A few days of training would give basically no returns whatsoever even going by the logic of the anime given that we know he trained for several years straight and was still weaker than Dabra. If it did multiply his power thousands of times over (which is, in fact, not irrelevant to point out) then this is just another example of the anime's terrible inconsistency.

[SSJgogeto]

There was no blue aura or white eyes when Trunks was fighting Future Zamasu.

To be fair, the white eyes appeared only for a while. That said, judging for the aura Trunks was using (Chou?) Super Saiyan when he fought against Zamasu.

[Jesus-is Lord]

That's a lie, zamsu never EVER fought on par with goku blue. Goku went into blue to fight zamsu, but quickly realized how much of a JOKE he is, and powered down to ssj, then got caught in zamsu magic which drained a lot of his energy (call back to bojack gang Energy zap I think..?). Goku came back, used blue to do mafuba and failed. Then went ssj god and STOMPED zamsu, so no: the manga did power scailing better here.

There's a crucial point to be made about your example that really puts a spotlight on that elephant in the room a few people refuse to acknowledge, and that's the manga's frequent use of clarification. It doesn't matter if it's about power scaling, fighting techniques or other distinct mechanics. There's always something specified and painstakingly elaborated on in almost every chapter; hell, some of the manga's detractors have criticized it for providing too much exposition.

Meanwhile, people in this very thread, right now - including those who prefer Toei's version of Super - can't even agree with each other on how strong Future Zamasu is supposed to be in the anime. That's pretty fucking telling if you ask me.

I know how much you've professed that people ought to be indepedent "free-thinkers" who can discuss objectivly and honestly about things in dragon ball super manga vs anime discussions, instead of being "tribal" and partisan about their love for a continuity that they've become blinded by their own bias so much that they turn into politcal representives for their affilation in debates instead of dragon ball fans who just want to have a honest discussion... But That Hope Is But A Dream which your remark has shown.

I agree - a lot of the complaints against toyotaro in his writing usually can be explained if people just read more carefully and understand all of what's going on - but for some, do you really expect them to have that type of attention spam, and urge to do such due-dilligence? People usually make their impression about something upon first view (except if it's something THEY want to suceed and care about then they will be much more paitent and understanding)...
Alright I've written enough fluff. Point is, some people don't care about the manga enough to make real legitimate critques.{/b]

"It's more of, I've read it once - I didn't like it and that's it!!!" I used to do that too for the anime, but I realized if I want to make valid critques of it and if I truly honestly think the anime is bad - I must be as educated as I can about the plot so if I don't like it after studying it,
I'll have good reasons why
which is what I implore anyone across all isles to do, be educated of why you don't like something - if you go by weak impressions and emotions you won't last long in serious discussion.

Though I dissagree about your third point, power scailing debate is apart of dragon ball culture. Even Z, db, GT (though not great on power scailing themselves) and super manga all produce power scailing arguments.
I get your point though, super's anime is so bad at power scailing its protagonist that it's fans argue over how strong it is because the show isn't clear - lol. Your point is well recieved, I just dissagree with the evidence. hahaha

[Jesus-is Lord]

Perhaps there was miscommunication between the writers. Maybe some wanted Zamasu to be SSB level, and others didn't. But I cannot completely disregard episode 57. You understand.

This is a good example of Toei inconsistency in action, similar to infamous cases like Pure Boo being somehow stronger than Gohan-Boo yet a decent match against Mr. Boo, and equal to SS3 Goku who can't even slightly scratch an off-guard Gotenks-Boo. The manga which generally sticks closer to Toriyama's outline (with seemingly closer supervision) consistently depicts Zamasu as weaker than even SS1-tier and not able to damage god-level characters at all. He'd probably get his butt kicked by Cell.

That's a lie, zamsu never EVER fought on par with goku blue. Goku went into blue to fight zamsu, but quickly realized how much of a JOKE he is, and powered down to ssj, then got caught in zamsu magic which drained a lot of his energy (call back to bojack gang Energy zap I think..?). Goku came back, used blue to do mafuba and failed. Then went ssj god and STOMPED zamsu, so no: the manga did power scailing better here.

There's a crucial point to be made about your example that really puts a spotlight on that elephant in the room a few people refuse to acknowledge, and that's the manga's frequent use of clarification. It doesn't matter if it's about power scaling, fighting techniques or other distinct mechanics. There's always something specified and painstakingly elaborated on in almost every chapter; hell, some of the manga's detractors have criticized it for providing too much exposition.

Meanwhile, people in this very thread, right now - including those who prefer Toei's version of Super - can't even agree with each other on how strong Future Zamasu is supposed to be in the anime. That's pretty fucking telling if you ask me.

The anime is pretty notable in how it manages to waste so much time while not actually saying anything at all.

But again, I must ask why we are treating this particular series different than any other Toei production. If we applied the same logic to Z we'd end up with Fat Boo > SS2 Goku > base Goku > Ultimate Gohan, or Imperfect Cell >= Krillin > SS Vegeta > base Vegeta > Krillin. And there'd probably be tons of people trying to say there's nothing contradictory about any of that because "he was off guard", "he wasn't trying," "he trained for 1 day," etc.

That's a lie, zamsu never EVER fought on par with goku blue. Goku went into blue to fight zamsu, but quickly realized how much of a JOKE he is, and powered down to ssj, then got caught in zamsu magic which drained a lot of his energy (call back to bojack gang Energy zap I think..?). Goku came back, used blue to do mafuba and failed. Then went ssj god and STOMPED zamsu, so no: the manga did power scailing better here.

Actually, in the first example, he just used a paralysis power similar to what Shin has (he has pretty much the same abilities as Shin: materialization, healing, telekinesis, paralysis, etc.). It worked because Goku was in SS1 and thus close enough to Zamasu's level to be affected; after which he started beating on Goku and not giving him the chance to transform.

He really did not. I believe that you are mistaken. Sure, he challenged them. Did he show any signs of being similar in power to them?

Actually, yes, he did. He hit them and actually caused them pain. He grappled with them and pushed them back. In every way he showed himself to be on their level.

How is an explanation for Trunks becoming stronger irrelevant? That makes no sense. It was obvious to the viewers he was training with Vegeta and the narrator asks if his new power is enough etc etc. Your attempt to quantify it as being thousands of times is irrelevant. The point is, he performed better and an explanation was given and you pretended as though there was nothing in between Trunks losing to Base Black and competing with SSR Black.

Because there effectively wasn't. A few days of training would give basically no returns whatsoever even going by the logic of the anime given that we know he trained for several years straight and was still weaker than Dabra. If it did multiply his power thousands of times over (which is, in fact, not irrelevant to point out) then this is just another example of the anime's terrible inconsistency.

Uh... yeah. I'm a Z - kid, so you can't pull anything on Z like you seem to do with super.
Z power scailing was fine. Kuririn = imperfect cell? what? That small filler fight? you really taking that as Kuririn is as strong as imperfect cell? dude stop, that fight Kuririn got comically trashed in.
ultimate gohan weaker then base goku? don't tell me you are looking at the filler of when gohst gohan fought goku as ssj. Dude, they are ghost - they aren't even real. lol.

[RandomGuy96]

Z power scailing was fine. Kuririn = imperfect cell? what? That small filler fight? you really taking that as Kuririn is as strong as imperfect cell?

The manga is fine. The anime-original scenes?

Uh...

dude stop, that fight Kuririn got comically trashed in.

Krillin dodged several hits from him and landed a good punch to the gut that gave Cell pain and knocked the wind out of him. Anyway, I'm not saying he's actually that strong. I'm saying that the exact same logic used to argue Super power levels would produce such results if we applied them to Toei's Z.

ultimate gohan weaker then base goku? don't tell me you are looking at the filler of when gohst gohan fought goku as ssj. Dude, they are ghost - they aren't even real. lol.

Goku explicitly states that ghost!Gohan is as strong as the original.