Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

So, I don't really keep up with Super strength discussions anymore due to a large amount of vagueness and inconsistencies, plus some large schisms in the fandom over how to interpret certain things.

However, I'm kind of wondering how people powerscale Vegetto in Super, because it seems like Blue Vegetto would be a huge issue in power-scaling.

Like, looking at him back in the Boo arc, Super Vegetto effortlessly thrashed Boohan. This guy is Evil Boo + Ultimate Gohan, where Evil Boo was way too strong for SS3 Goku to fight and Ultimate Gohan was significantly stronger than that. So, Boohan's more than double a guy SS3 Goku can't beat, and Super Vegetto trashes him. That guy can potentially have Super Saiyan 2 and 3 on top of that.

Flash forward to BOG, where Goku said that fusion wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus. There have been a lot of arguments on how accurate this was, and whether it took into account Super Saiyan 2 & 3. Assuming it wasn't a total lie, it makes SSG a tremendous boost for Goku at that point, with SSB being a further increase for him.

So, with that in mind, how do you power scale Boo arc Vegetto and Blue Vegetto? Are you able to keep the same boost for both separate instances of fusion and fit it with the other relevant quotes? Where does Blue Vegetto stack up compared to Beerus, Jiren etc?

In my mind, Blue Vegetto doesn't seem as impressive as his original version. For starters, he's now using the same form as his fusees instead of fighting two forms below, and his performance against Merged Zamasu isn't as impressive (Goku also puts up a better fight against Merged Zamasu than he would against Boohan).

Base Vegetto also decapitated Fused Zamasy easily (in the manga), which would have killed him if he wasn't immortal. Which may make things better or worse depending on your view. If taken at face value that would pretty much instantly debunk the idea that Super Saiyan God is stronger than Z Super Vegetto (interestingly that "merging wouldn't be enough" line wasn't in the Super manga either), since it would mean that the difference between base Goku and base Vegetto is larger than the difference between base Goku and SSG Goku (as Fused Zamasu was far above SSG and imperfect SSB).

[Bullza]

Anyway I said I was rewatchimg the series so he's the first thing I wanna see if people can clear up.

Was Gohan in his Base for or his Ultimate form when he fought Beerus?

So I see some people say he was in his Ultimate form I think largely because he was in the movie and from the looks of it in the manga as well. On the other hand he didn't have the correct hairstyle and the later part of the series would imply he did not have that power since he fought Buu.

I would say that it was his Base form myself. I don't think it would make much sense for him to have stopped training and four years after the Buu saga he could still turn Ultimate but a year after this he'd somehow weakened to the point he could barely turn Super Saiyan.

The only thing I question is why Piccolo can watch Beerus batter Buu but then he'd be surprised that he beat Base Gohan someasily afterward.

Which leads me to the second thing.

Would Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta be weaker than Ultimate Gohan?

We know he's stronger than Buu and they said he was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. However if it was just Base Gohan then Vegeta wouldn't necessarily be stronger than the likes of Super Buu and Ultimate Gohan and even Super Vegito which was mentioned before on here.

[RandomGuy96]

Anyway I said I was rewatchimg the series so he's the first thing I wanna see if people can clear up.

Was Gohan in his Base for or his Ultimate form when he fought Beerus?

So I see some people say he was in his Ultimate form I think largely because he was in the movie and from the looks of it in the manga as well. On the other hand he didn't have the correct hairstyle and the later part of the series would imply he did not have that power since he fought Buu.

I would say that it was his Base form myself. I don't think it would make much sense for him to have stopped training and four years after the Buu saga he could still turn Ultimate but a year after this he'd somehow weakened to the point he could barely turn Super Saiyan.

The only thing I question is why Piccolo can watch Beerus batter Buu but then he'd be surprised that he beat Base Gohan someasily afterward.

Which leads me to the second thing.

Would Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta be weaker than Ultimate Gohan?

We know he's stronger than Buu and they said he was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. However if it was just Base Gohan then Vegeta wouldn't necessarily be stronger than the likes of Super Buu and Ultimate Gohan and even Super Vegito which was mentioned before on here.

Much as I think it's futile to try to power-scale the anime, I will say he was in his Ultimate form simply because the way the whole episode is formatted (it ends on him powering up with exciting music as if he's going to do something, leaving a week-long cliffhanger) doesn't make sense if this power wasn't meant to be above what was displayed before. The series definitely does not even try to keep any consistency when it comes to "decay" though. Krillin can be hurt by a bullet in the Super anime, implying he got (in real terms) literally octillions of times weaker in 10 or so years. Yet, we know for a fact that Piccolo Daimao doing no training for centuries and turning into a geezer didn't even decrease his battle power by half.

Going by the manga, "Enraged" SS2 Vegeta was moderately stronger than SS Black, whose base form surpassed SS3 Goku. The power boosts Black gets from his SS forms don't appear to correlate to the boosts regular Goku gets, but that still implies that Vegeta's new SS2 state is many times stronger than SS3 Goku, which probably puts him above Gohan.

[ZombieVito]

Anyway I said I was rewatchimg the series so he's the first thing I wanna see if people can clear up.

Was Gohan in his Base for or his Ultimate form when he fought Beerus?

So I see some people say he was in his Ultimate form I think largely because he was in the movie and from the looks of it in the manga as well. On the other hand he didn't have the correct hairstyle and the later part of the series would imply he did not have that power since he fought Buu.

I would say that it was his Base form myself. I don't think it would make much sense for him to have stopped training and four years after the Buu saga he could still turn Ultimate but a year after this he'd somehow weakened to the point he could barely turn Super Saiyan.

The only thing I question is why Piccolo can watch Beerus batter Buu but then he'd be surprised that he beat Base Gohan someasily afterward.

Which leads me to the second thing.

Would Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta be weaker than Ultimate Gohan?

We know he's stronger than Buu and they said he was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. However if it was just Base Gohan then Vegeta wouldn't necessarily be stronger than the likes of Super Buu and Ultimate Gohan and even Super Vegito which was mentioned before on here.

I think he was Ultimate but a weaker form of it. That way it makes more sense for him to lose it the year after this. He already lost power by BoG.

Vegeta should be stronger than Gohan at least. I don't think Vegeta surpassed Buuhan or Vegetto. Could go either way though.

[Bergamo]

Anyway I said I was rewatchimg the series so he's the first thing I wanna see if people can clear up.

Was Gohan in his Base for or his Ultimate form when he fought Beerus?

So I see some people say he was in his Ultimate form I think largely because he was in the movie and from the looks of it in the manga as well. On the other hand he didn't have the correct hairstyle and the later part of the series would imply he did not have that power since he fought Buu.

I would say that it was his Base form myself. I don't think it would make much sense for him to have stopped training and four years after the Buu saga he could still turn Ultimate but a year after this he'd somehow weakened to the point he could barely turn Super Saiyan.

The only thing I question is why Piccolo can watch Beerus batter Buu but then he'd be surprised that he beat Base Gohan someasily afterward.

Which leads me to the second thing.

Would Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta be weaker than Ultimate Gohan?

We know he's stronger than Buu and they said he was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. However if it was just Base Gohan then Vegeta wouldn't necessarily be stronger than the likes of Super Buu and Ultimate Gohan and even Super Vegito which was mentioned before on here.

Much as I think it's futile to try to power-scale the anime, I will say he was in his Ultimate form simply because the way the whole episode is formatted (it ends on him powering up with exciting music as if he's going to do something, leaving a week-long cliffhanger) doesn't make sense if this power wasn't meant to be above what was displayed before. The series definitely does not even try to keep any consistency when it comes to "decay" though. Krillin can be hurt by a bullet in the Super anime, implying he got (in real terms) literally octillions of times weaker in 10 or so years. Yet, we know for a fact that Piccolo Daimao doing no training for centuries and turning into a geezer didn't even decrease his battle power by half.

Going by the manga, "Enraged" SS2 Vegeta was moderately stronger than SS Black, whose base form surpassed SS3 Goku. The power boosts Black gets from his SS forms don't appear to correlate to the boosts regular Goku gets, but that still implies that Vegeta's new SS2 state is many times stronger than SS3 Goku, which probably puts him above Gohan.

Did you just say octillion? Krillin's Power Level at his peak was realistically around 50,000, and regular humans with a power level of 5 are killed by bullets. This means that Krillin got less than 10,000 times weaker(overshooting by a bunch). Theres no way that anyone even had a PL of an octillion unless Goku got 10^12 times stronger(lowballing) offscreen.

It peeves me when people throw around random numbers like 400 times stronger, but octillion is a whole other level.

[RandomGuy96]

Did you just say octillion?

Yes, because I'm talking about actual power (hence "in real terms"), not battle power units. How much energy do you think it takes to blow up a planet like Saiyan arc Vegeta?

[Miracles]

Anyway I said I was rewatchimg the series so he's the first thing I wanna see if people can clear up.

Was Gohan in his Base for or his Ultimate form when he fought Beerus?

So I see some people say he was in his Ultimate form I think largely because he was in the movie and from the looks of it in the manga as well. On the other hand he didn't have the correct hairstyle and the later part of the series would imply he did not have that power since he fought Buu.

I would say that it was his Base form myself. I don't think it would make much sense for him to have stopped training and four years after the Buu saga he could still turn Ultimate but a year after this he'd somehow weakened to the point he could barely turn Super Saiyan.

The only thing I question is why Piccolo can watch Beerus batter Buu but then he'd be surprised that he beat Base Gohan someasily afterward.

Which leads me to the second thing.

Would Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta be weaker than Ultimate Gohan?

We know he's stronger than Buu and they said he was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. However if it was just Base Gohan then Vegeta wouldn't necessarily be stronger than the likes of Super Buu and Ultimate Gohan and even Super Vegito which was mentioned before on here.

But wouldn't Gohan fighting in black hair mode against a powerful opponent automatically signify the writers intention that he was using his Ultimate form?

[Bullza]

I will say he was in his Ultimate form simply because the way the whole episode is formatted (it ends on him powering up with exciting music as if he's going to do something, leaving a week-long cliffhanger) doesn't make sense if this power wasn't meant to be above what was displayed before.

Huh? I think you might have got something mixed up here. You think Gohan was in his Ultimate Form during his fight with Beerus because it ended on a cliffhanger?

That didn't happen on a cliffhanger he just powered up and got stomped within 30 seconds. Vegeta was the one whose power up ended on a cliffhanger but then that wouldn't be his Ultimate form.

So I don't know what you mean.

That still implies that Vegeta's new SS2 state is many times stronger than SS3 Goku, which probably puts him above Gohan.

In the manga Gohan appeared to have the bang so probably was Ultimate there so Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta should definitely be above Ultimate Gohan.

Whether the same is true or not for the anime is what I'm unsure about.

But wouldn't Gohan fighting in black hair mode against a powerful opponent automatically signify the writers intention that he was using his Ultimate form?

Well I'm not sure because in the following saga he fought Tagoma who was also a powerful opponent when he was in "black hair mode" and only ended up using Super Saiyan as something of a last resort because he could hardly maintain it by this point.

So I wonder if Gohan just used his Base form against Beerus because anything else was a struggle for him and Ultimate had gone completely.

[MoscoSama]

[spoiler]https://twitter.com/GovetaXV/status/103 ... 00/photo/1[/spoiler]

Gohan and Kafla messed each other up

[ZombieVito]

So all the manga fans, where's your consistency now?

[spoiler]Gohan is equal to Kefla. That makes his power up in the anime look like nothing.



[/spoiler]

[MoscoSama]

[spoiler]https://twitter.com/GovetaXV?ref_src=tw ... 5744748544[/spoiler]

[kudo6000]

[spoiler]Gohan isn't even in his Ultimate form. I'm at a loss for words.
[/spoiler]

[BlueBasilisk]

[spoiler]Gohan isn't even in his Ultimate form. I'm at a loss for words.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Do we know that he's not? Has Toyotaro drawn Ultimate Gohan before?[/spoiler]

[SSJgogeto]

Yes.

[kudo6000]

[spoiler]Do we know that he's not? Has Toyotaro drawn Ultimate Gohan before?[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Yes...
[/spoiler]

[BlueBasilisk]

[spoiler]Do we know that he's not? Has Toyotaro drawn Ultimate Gohan before?[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Yes...
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Oh.... yeah, I got nothin' then. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯[/spoiler]

[Skar]

So all the manga fans, where's your consistency now?

[spoiler]Gohan is equal to Kefla. That makes his power up in the anime look like nothing.



[/spoiler]

To be honest, I think this makes more sense than in the anime with Goku needing Ultra Instinct to defeat her. Shouldn't SSJ1 Kefla be weaker than Buu saga SSJ1 Vegetto? Goku had access to SSJ3 and Vegeta had SSJ2 while Caulifa is only a strong SSJ and Kale had lost a lot of power by the time they fused.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So all the manga fans, where's your consistency now?

[spoiler]Gohan is equal to Kefla. That makes his power up in the anime look like nothing.



[/spoiler]

To be honest, I think this makes more sense than in the anime with Goku needing Ultra Instinct to defeat her. Shouldn't SSJ1 Kefla be weaker than Buu saga SSJ1 Vegetto? Goku had access to SSJ3 and Vegeta had SSJ2 while Caulifa is only a strong SSJ and Kale had lost a lot of power by the time they fused.

Well, that's the issue, isn't?

People keep thinking that base and Super Saiyan forms for non-fused and fused Saiyans seen thus far are as low as they were back during the Buu Arc, and so are surprised when they perform above that level, such as base Kefla against SSG Goku and Ultimate Gohan here against SS Kefla.

I feel that this helps support the notion that the base and Super Saiyans are highly powerful, far beyond what the original predecessor story had left them at bar End of Z, at least in terms of "regular power level". After all, if Goku's gonna be tangling with the reincarnation of Pure Buu in base form while only starting to get serious in a mere 3 years time chronologically speaking, he and by extension others should be pretty strong now as well.

[kudo6000]

[spoiler]Gohan has not used Ultimate in this tournament, at all. Not a single time. Not even SS.[/spoiler]

[Lord Beerus]

[spoiler]Gohan has not used Ultimate in this tournament, at all. Not a single time. Not even SS.[/spoiler]

Kefla got nerfed HARDCORE.