DragonBoxes on Blu-ray: Coming Soon?

[MajinVejitaXV]

So, Warner went Blu-ray exclusive, Paramount apparently has a bail clause on their HD-DVD contract that they might be exercising and Pony Canyon is stating that while they've been working with HD-DVD, the decision of the U.S. studioes would mean that they'll ultimately choose Blu-ray in the end.

Could this mean DragonBoxes on Blu-ray somewhere down the line? Just figured I would share.

-Corey

[ect5150]

So, Warner went Blu-ray exclusive, Paramount apparently has a bail clause on their HD-DVD contract that they might be exercising and Pony Canyon is stating that while they've been working with HD-DVD, the decision of the U.S. studioes would mean that they'll ultimately choose Blu-ray in the end.

Could this mean DragonBoxes on Blu-ray somewhere down the line? Just figured I would share.

I'd say yes, only no time soon? (Who knows, they may surprise us)

[Xenomorph]

I'd have to agree, but if that happens, i can see a pattern emerging :



Dragon Ball Z - Season 1 - Remastered - High Definition - Blu-Ray

The COMPLETE Vegeta Saga spanning 6 discs, fully remastered in High Definition. (Only this time, it's actually going to be in HD). And yes, you guessed it, the original masters shows the series for the FIRST (in HD) time the way it was meant to be seen. IN WIDESCREEN.

That's right, now, after stopping the season sets with season 4, Funimation have decided to port all seven series to Blu-ray, that's right folks, thats ANOTHER set of Dragon Ball we won't finish. God, i bet you love how we waste your money time after time.

BUT WAIT!!

Don't feel bad, after all, you are getting a "Remastered in High Definition, Original Japenese Masters, WIDESCREEN presentation".

"But, isn't that what i was supposed to get before ?"

Ehm, Yes, but now it costs more and is on Blu-Ray !!

And it's only $119.99 a box set, WHAT VALUE !!

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Overall, I guess that IS the next logical step for Funimation aswell.

God, picute the adverts now.

[Snail]

So, Warner went Blu-ray exclusive,

-Corey

Does that mean that all of their releases will only be on Blu-ray, and not DVD from now on?

[fps_anth]

I'm kinda a n00b when it comes to discs. When FUNi releases DBZ on Blu-ray (which they will), would the entire season fit on a disc or two? Or would it still take up as many discs as the DVD due to file sizes?

[VegettoEX]

I'm kinda a n00b when it comes to discs. When FUNi releases DBZ on Blu-ray (which they will), would the entire season fit on a disc or two? Or would it still take up as many discs as the DVD due to file sizes?

It's all relative. While it's true that a Blu-Ray disc can store much more data than a standard DVD (50 GB to 8.5 GB for dual-layered of each, respectively), keep in mind that what's actually being stored on there is pretty different. High-definition video (let's say 1080p) takes up a gigantic amount of space compared to standard-definition video (let's say 480p), so even though you've given yourself more space to work with, you've also bumped up the amount you need to store on it.

I don't have any specifics on an average, appropriate size for a ~22 minute episode in 1080p, but I would imagine that you can still store a good amount more (high-def episodes) on a single Blu-Ray disc than you could (standard-def episodes) on a DVD. It's not like you'll fit 100 episodes on a disc or anything, though.

Let's also not forget that both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray have a couple different codecs they can store video within, some having more efficient compression than others. What's been decided upon for the moment? I'm pretty sure they've stopped just using higher-bitrate MPEG-2...

When it comes to the "Dragon Box episodes", weren't they all remastered in standard definition (480p), thus making the process of even getting them up to high-def somewhat irrelevant / extremely difficult? This may be different for the movies since there are film masters that could be scanned in at a gazillion horizontal lines to make a pretty high-def image.

It's pretty inevitable that FUNimation will put out the series in a high-definition format (be it Blu-Ray [probably] or digital-distribution) from their own "remastered" season boxset source material, but I dunno about Toei. See my above points/questions.

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If this turns into a Dragon Box vs. "Remastered" FUNimation sets thread, I'll lock it and ban any and all appropriate parties. No questions asked, no warnings made, no follow-up allowed.

[TripleRach]

So, Warner went Blu-ray exclusive,

-Corey

Does that mean that all of their releases will only be on Blu-ray, and not DVD from now on?

No, it means that as far as high definition media is concerned, Warner has dropped their support for HD-DVD and now their only high def releases will be on Blu-Ray.

No company would dare stop producing DVDs so early. Especially since so many Americans seem to loathe the thought of new technology; all the average Joes would have a shitfit if a new movie came out only on a disc that won't play in their $25 Apex.

[MajinVejitaXV]

What's been decided upon for the moment? I'm pretty sure they've stopped just using higher-bitrate MPEG-2...

There's still the occasional high bitrate MPEG-2, but it's mostly VC-1 and AVC now.

When it comes to the "Dragon Box episodes", weren't they all remastered in standard definition (480p), thus making the process of even getting them up to high-def somewhat irrelevant / extremely difficult?

This is what I'm curious about. To my knowledge, nothing in the DragonBoxes or the promotional articles/sites say anything about what resolution the masters were scanned at. I know in the United States it's practically unheard of not to master anything in HD (4k is all the rage from releases I've seen recently), but I'm not so sure about Japan. Personally, I'd be disappointed in Toei and Pony Canyon if they telecined the footage at anything less than 1080p, especially given all the work they did on the remaster.

This may be different for the movies since there are film masters that could be scanned in at a gazillion horizontal lines to make a pretty high-def image.

Eh, the 16mm masters could be telecined in HD as well, it's just that the limits of the medium would be more apparent. You also wouldn't see *that* drastic of a difference in the quality (aside from it being native HD, so no need for upscaling) since the DragonBox encodes were pretty bulletproof. I don't think I've seen any macroblocking or artifacting of any kind.

It's pretty inevitable that FUNimation will put out the series in a high-definition format (be it Blu-Ray [probably] or digital-distribution) from their own "remastered" season boxset source material, but I dunno about Toei. See my above points/questions.

Personally, given the popularity of DragonBall and the fact that HD was in formulative stages by prominent Japanese companies, I'd be shocked if the masters aren't in HD already. If not though, I wouldn't be surprised to see an HD remaster *someday*. Given the resurgence of interest in the property, assuming Blu-ray does eventually succeed DVD, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Blu-ray DragonBox.

As for FUNimation, while I disagree with their decisions in terms of cropping footage, etc. they at least seem to be farming out their Blu-ray encodes to decent houses. The Broli Blu-ray wasn't horrible looking. If they just polished the production, their movie releases wouldn't be too bad.

The series on the otherhand...is a story that's been run into the ground and will not be discussed here by me.

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If this turns into a Dragon Box vs. "Remastered" FUNimation sets thread, I'll lock it and ban any and all appropriate parties. No questions asked, no warnings made, no follow-up allowed.

Amen. I enjoy having intelligent exchanges, but given the mysterious sensitivity of the subject that's impossible. Personally, I'd be happy if there was never another "FUNi vs. Toei DVD Production" debate, unless FUNi somehow acquires Toei's masters.

-Corey

[fps_anth]

I don't have any specifics on an average, appropriate size for a ~22 minute episode in 1080p, but I would imagine that you can still store a good amount more (high-def episodes) on a single Blu-Ray disc than you could (standard-def episodes) on a DVD. It's not like you'll fit 100 episodes on a disc or anything, though.

Thanks a lot for the information. Good to hear that the Blu-Ray discs will be able to hold more than the DVDs. I'm praying that they don't take the same path that they took with the orange bricks when it comes to packaging. I mean, it didn't take up very much space, but those discs were a bitch to take out.

Blu-Ray cases are small and thin, so I'm hoping that they just release the seasons in these standard cases.

[Acid_Reign]

Personally, given the popularity of DragonBall and the fact that HD was in formulative stages by prominent Japanese companies, I'd be shocked if the masters aren't in HD already. If not though, I wouldn't be surprised to see an HD remaster *someday*. Given the resurgence of interest in the property, assuming Blu-ray does eventually succeed DVD, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Blu-ray DragonBox.

I think it really depends on how "future proof" they intended these things to be. I mean, they break out 14 year old film (this is just going by the original air date of 1989 and the D.Box release date of 2003; the animation could likely have been finished before '89 just the same as the remastering process could have been finished before '03) for the Z sets from the vaults, scan it in, reposition the frames, digitally repair them... one would think that there'd be an intermediate format before encoding it all down to MPEG-2, which to me seems to be more of a space-saver/DVD-necessary codec than something to save a master as (in regards to film at least). However, in the same light, if Toei/Pony Canyon thought that for a show this old, at the same resolution it was aired in, progressive, and at DVD-quality, it may not necessarily require another release.

Does that mean they'd master in MPEG-2? I doubt it, since it can be hard to edit, and it is common practice to master in HD when dealing with film-to-video releases, but the sets themselves are definitive enough. And with the singles readily-available that leaves audiences satisfied with a contemporary format for quite a while. The only incentive that I see to releasing them in HD would be to simply cash in on the franchise some more. Which is a very big incentive, but it might also piss off the people who spent so much money on them in the past five years.

Then again, that isn't stopping any of the major American studios from releasing Blu-Ray versions of the same titles consumers have owned for decades, but the jump to 1080p with 7.1 surround sound and/or uncompressed audio, etc. is all very tempting to even those who don't fully understand the terms. From a marketing standpoint, I don't see the same for Dragon Ball. Like you said, we wouldn't see a vast difference between the current and HD versions, save I would suspect some more vibrant colors given the wider gamut of HD, and of course the higher line count. What would the advertising hook be? The main selling points on the original Dragon Boxes were 1.) first ever domestic DVD release, and 2.) extensive restoration process. So, the only thing to justify a new boxset would be the "see it like you've never seen it before" route. I don't know the Japanese audience well enough to accurately predict what the average response would be, but if it's "I love Dragon Ball and have a disposable income; let me at these 'better' sets!" then there's a chance it'll make it out. If it's "I already have this... forget about it," obviously, it's less likely.

Although I'm sure there's more than a fair amount of people who missed the first wave of sets, so there's always that well to tap into.

[MajinVejitaXV]

I don't know the Japanese audience well enough to accurately predict what the average response would be, but if it's "I love Dragon Ball and have a disposable income; let me at these 'better' sets!" then there's a chance it'll make it out. If it's "I already have this... forget about it," obviously, it's less likely.

Hm, I'd honestly say it'd still be a hit. The Japanese are fairly well known for being...well, obsessive about their interests. Video games get re-released over and over for people to buy, and how many times has Evangelion been released in Japan to commercial success?

I don't know. Personally, I could see it working. And thankfully, I have faith that Toei would actually maintain OAR instead of chopping Goku's head off ;p

-Corey

[SonGokuGT]

Man, I can't believe that Paramount got out of the contract! This outstanding news! Go Blu! Time to start a savings account for the possible future Japanese release of Dragonball on Blu-ray!

[Acid_Reign]

Man, I can't believe that Paramount got out of the contract! This outstanding news! Go Blu! Time to start a savings account for the possible future Japanese release of Dragonball on Blu-ray!

I would be reveling in this news, even if it is a little flakey of Paramount—finally, Transformers on Blu-Ray... as it should be!—but my PS3 isn't working over HDMI right now, and I'm at my wit's end troubleshooting. Good to know that I've at least got a player for these future releases though.

[SonGokuGT]

Transformers on Blu-Ray... as it should be!

<off-topic>Party at Michael Bay's! Whoooo!!!</off-topic>

[Acid_Reign]

<off-topic>Party at Michael Bay's! Whoooo!!!</off-topic>

Sequels for everybody!!! :P

[BrollysKin]

<off-topic>Party at Michael Bay's! Whoooo!!!</off-topic>

Sequels for everybody!!!

I don't get it, whats wrong with hd-dvd?

[TripleRach]

It's not like you'll fit 100 episodes on a disc or anything, though.

Actually, if you've seen any of our discussions about it on IRC, we worked out that you can fit 100 episodes on a single layer Blu-Ray. But at 480p, of course, using AVC, two audio tracks (one mono, one stereo), and subtitles.

Or even just being lazy and reusing the Dragon Box MPEG-2s, I think you could fit about 30 episodes on a Blu-Ray.

[MarcFBR]

If you used just the Mpeg2 encodes from the Dragonbox's on dual layer they disk breakdown would be as such.

(This is WITHOUT reencoding to modern codecs, literally just taking the Dragonbox encodes and slapping them on dual layer Blu-ray disks)

Dragonball- 5 disks
Dragonball Z- 10 disks
Dragonball GT-2 disks
Movies- 2 disks

And going off what Rach said, if you reencoded the Dragonbox releases with AVC at 480p) and then put those on dual layer Blu-rays, the numbers would more then likely be closer to this.

Dragonball- 1 to 2 disks
Dragonball Z- 2 to 3 disks
Dragonball GT- 1 disk
Movies- 1 disk


Few notes- me and Rach spent quite a bit of time checking numbers, these are accurate, but not necessarily based on optimization that may or may not be done, but my personal opinion is you could use those sizes and have them look about the same as the mpg2 encodes on the DVD (just reencoding will have SOME slight differences), if anyone comes up with a different number and believes we've screwed up, by all means let me know so I can recheck.

The numbers for the 'mpeg2' encoded blurays are completely accurate and are based simply on the size of DVDs and blurays, and the fact that most disks aren't 100% full anyways.

Even though these are theoretically possible to do, they will never be done like this, it just isn't a cost effective way of doing it, makes it to easy to copy, along with any other number of problems.

But it is possible.

[SSJToreto]

As good as this sounds, blu-ray seems like overkill... I'm talking about dbox episodes. Dbox is perfect quality wise. You can't expect to get any better quality than dbox with an old show like Dragon Ball. Sure, they could slap like 30 dbox episodes on a blu-ray disc, but I don't expect to see improvement in video quality.

[MarcFBR]

Throwing the Dragonbox encodes themselves on, no, of course not.

If the masters were rescanned at 1080p, at the very least lines would be slightly clearer, although my belief is DBZ was animated to long ago and to cheaply to get much of a difference.

It would look a bit clearer potentially, and that is it.

As for not looking better at all, I disagree.


Just taking it from uncompresses source files to AVC will make it look a small percentage better.