Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

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kudo6000
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Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by kudo6000 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:22 am

Broly is shown in the trailer wiping the floor with Goku. That’s fine and all, but it really doesn’t remove the elephant in the room - which is that Goku has a form that surpasses the gods. Yes, he isn’t in control of it, but it seems to be triggered once Goku is at the brink of danger. Who’s to say that won’t happen again?

That is unless they use the running theme of every form Goku achieves is eventually surpassed by the next enemy; and that includes the highly acclaimed UI.

Would it best to just forget about Ultra Instinct?
Last edited by kudo6000 on Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:29 am

With each subsequent story arc and transformation, this same question (or series of questions) is asked each time. How can we go further? How can we possibly go beyond? What tension can even exist?!

A talented, gifted writer can always come up with something new and engaging. If that talented and gifted writer was me, I wouldn't be some slouch sitting here documenting the series; I'd be writing it! I don't personally have the imagination to come up with what might be next, but I'm always a little excited for someone (namely Toriyama) to try and do so.

I'm not entirely sure if the new Broli movie is going to be the place for that, or if it's just a stepping-stone to whatever may come next, but I'm always at least a little interested.

I'm also, simultaneously, perfectly content with the original 519 chapters as-is. I liked the journey there, and don't necessarily need anything else beyond that.
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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Nickolaidas » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:43 am

I agree with everything VegettoEX said, except the last sentence. I'm always open to more Dragon Ball, as long as my fave characters still get to do something.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by sintzu » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:03 pm

Nickolaidas wrote:I agree with everything VegettoEX said, except the last sentence. I'm always open to more Dragon Ball, as long as my fave characters still get to do something.
I'm also always open to more DB but at the same time I think it was smart for Toriyama to stop while he was ahead instead of dragging the franchise into the ground. If DB is to continue it needs to really start shaking things up as nostalgia will only get it so far before people realize they're just getting more of what they already have with just a different paint job.

In terms of the UI question, it depends on how things will play out moving forward. If Goku can use it to wipe the floor with whoever is giving him a hard time then there will be no tension but if that only happens occasionally then it'll keep things interesting and unpredictable as we'll never know when he'll be able to use it.
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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by CTAkuma » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:42 pm

All tension was gone with the introduction of Beerus and Whis as allies, there are no stakes when these characters are still part of Gokuu's friends as Whis can revive people or turn back time and Beerus is one of the strongest fighters

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:06 pm

CTAkuma wrote:All tension was gone with the introduction of Beerus and Whis as allies, there are no stakes when these characters are still part of Gokuu's friends as Whis can revive people or turn back time and Beerus is one of the strongest fighters
This is demonstrably untrue based on not only what we've been told, but have seen firsthand: Beerus is petrified of the Omni-King, and Whis cannot necessarily be counted on to drag them out of the mud.
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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by precita » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:09 pm

The best decision they made is Goku not being able to use Ultra Instinct whenever he wants. I'm glad they're sticking with the Blue forms, even though they're already overpowered.

Ultra Instinct may show up at the climax of the Broly movie but I hope it doesn't, feels like an easy win card.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:21 pm

Goku struggled his ass off in Completed UI to beat jiren, and initially goku was being overwhelmed in completed UI. Its not that much of an almighty technique and tension can be had even if beerus and whis are present, since jiren was in the domain of power beerus is in, and newer opponents will mostlikely be above that level.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:31 pm

The writers are creative. They will certainly be able to come up with antagonists who will be way too much even for Ultra Instinct.

For example, consider Infinite Zamasu for a moment. He was an astral being, who had merged with the very fabric of reality and transcended time and space. No matter how powerful Ultra Instinct is, it wouldn't have been able to deal with such a foe.

Point is, If the next big villain is some kind of twisted cosmic entity like Infinite Zamasu, then Ultra Instinct won't be enough to win.
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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Mister_Popo » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:56 pm

It doesn't have to remove any tension whatsoever, all depends how the future is written.

I don't believe in playing the game of 'unexpected UI' (will it show up or not?) anymore when opponents grow stronger than Jiren or Broly.
You can do that once or twice, but you can't keep up with that in a believable way for 5 arcs with that concept.

If Broly is indeed stronger than Jiren, then MUI Goku will stuggle at least as much against Broly as he did agaist Jiren.
If not more.
The same with Gogeta Blue.

If we we get Gogeta Blue in stead of MUI in the movie, what'll be up next level if the opponents become stronger and stronger?
A deux ex machine, Zeno perhaps, saving the say? Not we haven't done that one before.

There once was the Muten Roshi as the strongest fighter of the universe, like a God, then there was Korin who supposed to represent the ultimate divine being, but then Gokus pole landed on Kami's palace, who really was called a God. The true Gods however, appeared to be in another power realm altogether, 30 years later. Toriyama has always managed to expand his universe in the past with his creativity and unexpected solutions. I am convinced he can stretch the borders of imagination even further, so we haven't to be stuck with 'unexpected' UI against opponents that are far stronger than Jiren, always resulting in the same predictable tale: after being defeated in Blue, fusion, MUI or a deux ex machina shows up to save the day.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:58 pm

Not really it's something known about since 2015 and we know Goku can't access it by will so it's not like he's purposely holding back.

I don't think the conditions of the fight with Broly is gonna be the same as the ToP and so I think that's why Goku doesn't go UI, he had the entire weight of his universe on his shoulders there.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Waluigiman » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:03 pm

I am hoping that Goku can't activate it at his will, that will also make Ultra Instinct more different than his transformations.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:26 pm

No.

They'll make up another character that is beyond the realm of power and ability of Ultra Instinct. Just like they have done in the past with every other gimmick transformation and ability.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by shadd21 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:08 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:No.

They'll make up another character that is beyond the realm of power and ability of Ultra Instinct. Just like they have done in the past with every other gimmick transformation and ability.
Would they really do that though? They've seem keen on keeping Beerus above all the mortals, even going as far as to make it ambiguous on how strong Jiren, MUI Goku, and the new Broly are compared to him.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by KingKaash » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:46 pm

I think fights between UI users would be interesting. Like if Hit got UI I think he'd be stronger than Jiren or Goku. How do you beat a guy who can hit you whenever and wherever with Time Skip but you can't hit him back because of UI
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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:57 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:No.

They'll make up another character that is beyond the realm of power and ability of Ultra Instinct. Just like they have done in the past with every other gimmick transformation and ability.
Honestly people have this conversation everytime a new form is introduced. They will always find a way to make a new form seem like the norm to then introduce another form that far supersceeds the last. Its db, people should learn.

Tho goku hasnt even mastered UI yet, so UI will be special for quite a while before its made the norm for goku.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Xeztin » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:14 pm

I don’t believe we’ll see Ultra Instinct again in the near future. If we do I think it’ll be UI and not MUI. Goku more than likely won’t like the thought of having to be beaten to death to use UI. It is a cop out card but there was a lot that lead up to UI in ToP. Jiren in a way helped him reach it as he wanted to beat him at his best, let him throw the Genkai Dema beat him to a pulp instead of killing him per the rules. Etc. It’s almost like Goku is unconcious in that state which is hard for a character like him unless he is beaten down. It also takes him a while to stay in the state for even a few seconds, I think it is something that will never be mastered or used at free will. There will probably be no enemy in the future with the intent to kill that will beat him down and keep letting him get back up, especially if Goku swings into UI for a few seconds and then it fizzles out. Jiren kept beating him down without killing him and letting him up and I think what Goku will take from UI is basically what Roshi did without the form or power up. Doing what Roshi did in the manga will help out Goku’s martial arts without going into UI or Mui which comes with that Kaio-ken like body strain.

SSJ Blue Completed/KK+Fake UI (what Roshi did) would be a huge increase in his favor instead of relying on power alone.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:57 pm

Who cares about tension? Ultra Instinct is cool and strong, and quite frankly, that’s the only thing that matters to me. Dragon Ball has never been about tension, it has always been about the evolution of Goku and Vegeta as Saiyans. And this is exactly where Ultra Instinct comes in. This series is all about Goku and Vegeta bettering themselves. It’s not concerned with creating unneccesary tension or drama.
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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Jackalope89 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:50 am

Broly, without going blonde (any version), was shown in the trailer to be clashing with Blue Goku (and probably Blue Vegeta as well). Him going Full Power...

I watched the trailer I don't know how many times, but each time, that scene with Broly transforming to Legendary sent shivers down my spine.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Kataphrut » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:14 am

Even Ultra Instinct was shown to not be invincible when it debuted. It's actually one of the more well-rounded forms in terms of strengths and weaknesses. There are always going to be ways to up the stakes, that's how this works.

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