Fighting maneuvers in Dragonball make no sense

[Polyphase Avatron]

This is a topic I've been meaning to address for a while. When you consider many of the typical fighting tropes/maneuvers in the franchise, they look cool as hell, but if you actually think about them logically, they make no sense at all. Let me go over a few examples:

Blocking everything with one hand/finger



Think about this for a minute. It doesn't matter how much faster the defender is than the attacker, because their finger still can't be in more than one place at once. Say the alien throws a punch at Beerus, then Beerus blocks it with his finger. The alien then throws another punch with another hand, aiming for a different part of Beerus' body. He can't move his finger to block the second punch without letting the first punch continue. And this alien even had 4 arms! Another thing is that if your punch gets blocked by a hand or finger, why not grab the hand/finger to hold it in place and then throw a punch with your other arm? I'm not suggesting this would work against a massively stronger and faster opponent, but we never see characters even try this.

Fighters mutually fooling each other with afterimages

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eehv-7lVK_g (all throughout this video but especially visible from 1:02 - 1:20)

Ignoring for a moment the scientific implausibility of leaving a hologram-like image of yourself just by moving fast, think about the mechanics here. To leave an afterimage that your opponent hits, and then get completely behind them without them even noticing, you would have to be significantly faster than they are (or at least faster than they can track). But if you have two fighters that are presented as roughly equal doing this to each other repeatedly, how is that possible? Is Cell somehow way faster than Goku one second, but Goku is way faster than Cell the next? Fighters that are close enough in speed to keep up with each other should never be able to fool each other with this kind of move.

Also, as TVTropes points out, if you were fast enough to completely evade an opponent's vision and get behind them without them noticing, it would logically take less time and effort to just turn around and attack them before they could hit you.

These are just two examples, there are many more.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I'm surprised this has gotten no replies so far...

[theherodjl]

What gripes me the most is how some fighters use a very predictable set of strikes & blocks over & over until someone is able to get a successful hit in or they both back off as if they all silently agree to the bushido code. Even if its in a moment of desperation or something is at stake, their idea of hand-to-hand combat is just so damn linear, and its why the fights usually end with some massive blast or unforeseen circumstance. They might as well ditch the "martial arts" classification, and demote it to "glorified sparring sessions".

[Kurakaio]

I mean theoretically if he could move fast enough why couldn't be possible? Beerus is literally like a million times stronger and faster than that guy. Would it not actually be possible for him to block all those punches, if he just moved his finger fast enough?

But you mentioned speed isn't a factor? I mean unless all of the punches connect at the same time, I don't see why he couldn't block them. I'm not trying to argue, just curious.

[Vertical]

Think about this for a minute. It doesn't matter how much faster the defender is than the attacker, because their finger still can't be in more than one place at once. Say the alien throws a punch at Beerus, then Beerus blocks it with his finger. The alien then throws another punch with another hand, aiming for a different part of Beerus' body. He can't move his finger to block the second punch without letting the first punch continue. And this alien even had 4 arms! Another thing is that if your punch gets blocked by a hand or finger, why not grab the hand/finger to hold it in place and then throw a punch with your other arm? I'm not suggesting this would work against a massively stronger and faster opponent, but we never see characters even try this.

There is no "letting the first punch continue". Once the punch is stopped, all the force behind it is lost. "Continuing" through with that punch would require starting from that stopped point, making it completely ineffective.

Even attacking with all 4 arms at once would be ineffective against an opponent so much more powerful/fast. The opponent would simply take an instant to stop 1 of the arms and move onto the next before any of the arms could reach him.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I mean theoretically if he could move fast enough why couldn't be possible? Beerus is literally like a million times stronger and faster than that guy. Would it not actually be possible for him to block all those punches, if he just moved his finger fast enough?

But you mentioned speed isn't a factor? I mean unless all of the punches connect at the same time, I don't see why he couldn't block them. I'm not trying to argue, just curious.

Well my point was that his finger can't be in more than one place at the same time. So the only way he could block them all is if the alien only ever threw one punch at once.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Think about this for a minute. It doesn't matter how much faster the defender is than the attacker, because their finger still can't be in more than one place at once. Say the alien throws a punch at Beerus, then Beerus blocks it with his finger. The alien then throws another punch with another hand, aiming for a different part of Beerus' body. He can't move his finger to block the second punch without letting the first punch continue. And this alien even had 4 arms! Another thing is that if your punch gets blocked by a hand or finger, why not grab the hand/finger to hold it in place and then throw a punch with your other arm? I'm not suggesting this would work against a massively stronger and faster opponent, but we never see characters even try this.

There is no "letting the first punch continue". Once the punch is stopped, all the force behind it is lost. "Continuing" through with that punch would require starting from that stopped point, making it completely ineffective.

Even attacking with all 4 arms at once would be ineffective against an opponent so much more powerful/fast. The opponent would simply take an instant to stop 1 of the arms and move onto the next before any of the arms could reach him.

That doesn't really make sense unless you assume that each block is also applying a repelling force, i.e. pushing the punch back, but in the animation we can see he is just holding his finger in front of them.

[Vertical]

Think about this for a minute. It doesn't matter how much faster the defender is than the attacker, because their finger still can't be in more than one place at once. Say the alien throws a punch at Beerus, then Beerus blocks it with his finger. The alien then throws another punch with another hand, aiming for a different part of Beerus' body. He can't move his finger to block the second punch without letting the first punch continue. And this alien even had 4 arms! Another thing is that if your punch gets blocked by a hand or finger, why not grab the hand/finger to hold it in place and then throw a punch with your other arm? I'm not suggesting this would work against a massively stronger and faster opponent, but we never see characters even try this.

There is no "letting the first punch continue". Once the punch is stopped, all the force behind it is lost. "Continuing" through with that punch would require starting from that stopped point, making it completely ineffective.

Even attacking with all 4 arms at once would be ineffective against an opponent so much more powerful/fast. The opponent would simply take an instant to stop 1 of the arms and move onto the next before any of the arms could reach him.

That doesn't really make sense unless you assume that each block is also applying a repelling force, i.e. pushing the punch back, but in the animation we can see he is just holding his finger in front of them.

Maybe it would help you to imagine Beerus' finger as an unbreakable wall. He doesn't have to repel the punch, only stop it.

[Polyphase Avatron]

There is no "letting the first punch continue". Once the punch is stopped, all the force behind it is lost. "Continuing" through with that punch would require starting from that stopped point, making it completely ineffective.

Even attacking with all 4 arms at once would be ineffective against an opponent so much more powerful/fast. The opponent would simply take an instant to stop 1 of the arms and move onto the next before any of the arms could reach him.

That doesn't really make sense unless you assume that each block is also applying a repelling force, i.e. pushing the punch back, but in the animation we can see he is just holding his finger in front of them.

Maybe it would help you to imagine Beerus' finger as an unbreakable wall. He doesn't have to repel the punch, only stop it.

But that wall can only block one punch at once - once it moves to block another, the first one can keep going. It's not the the alien has to pull his fist back if his punch doesn't connect.

[Vertical]

That doesn't really make sense unless you assume that each block is also applying a repelling force, i.e. pushing the punch back, but in the animation we can see he is just holding his finger in front of them.

Maybe it would help you to imagine Beerus' finger as an unbreakable wall. He doesn't have to repel the punch, only stop it.

But that wall can only block one punch at once - once it moves to block another, the first one can keep going. It's not the the alien has to pull his fist back if his punch doesn't connect.

Yes, the attacker can re-push his fist from the point it was stopped but it would be so weak there's no point... so they pull back to attack again.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Maybe it would help you to imagine Beerus' finger as an unbreakable wall. He doesn't have to repel the punch, only stop it.

But that wall can only block one punch at once - once it moves to block another, the first one can keep going. It's not the the alien has to pull his fist back if his punch doesn't connect.

Yes, the attacker can re-push his fist from the point it was stopped but it would be so weak there's no point... so they pull back to attack again.

Why would it be weak? They can use ki to enhance the strength of it.

[Vertical]

But that wall can only block one punch at once - once it moves to block another, the first one can keep going. It's not the the alien has to pull his fist back if his punch doesn't connect.

Yes, the attacker can re-push his fist from the point it was stopped but it would be so weak there's no point... so they pull back to attack again.

Why would it be weak? They can use ki to enhance the strength of it.

Try punch with your arm already 90% extended.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Yes, the attacker can re-push his fist from the point it was stopped but it would be so weak there's no point... so they pull back to attack again.

Why would it be weak? They can use ki to enhance the strength of it.

Try punch with your arm already 90% extended.

I can't charge my punch with ki though.

[Vertical]

Why would it be weak? They can use ki to enhance the strength of it.

Try punch with your arm already 90% extended.

I can't charge my punch with ki though.

That doesn't seem to matter... or they wouldn't pull back to punch.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Try punch with your arm already 90% extended.

I can't charge my punch with ki though.

That doesn't seem to matter... or they wouldn't pull back to punch.

It does matter though, as pulling back just lets you strengthen it further.

[DragonBallFoodie]

DB is pretty

Blocking everything with one hand/finger



Think about this for a minute. It doesn't matter how much faster the defender is than the attacker, because their finger still can't be in more than one place at once. Say the alien throws a punch at Beerus, then Beerus blocks it with his finger. The alien then throws another punch with another hand, aiming for a different part of Beerus' body. He can't move his finger to block the second punch without letting the first punch continue. And this alien even had 4 arms! Another thing is that if your punch gets blocked by a hand or finger, why not grab the hand/finger to hold it in place and then throw a punch with your other arm? I'm not suggesting this would work against a massively stronger and faster opponent, but we never see characters even try this.

It's a matter of speed, and as the god of Destruction Beerus is on a a level beyond mortals. As you said, against someone stronger and faster that move may not succeed.

Fighters mutually fooling each other with afterimages

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eehv-7lVK_g (all throughout this video but especially visible from 1:02 - 1:20)

Ignoring for a moment the scientific implausibility of leaving a hologram-like image of yourself just by moving fast, think about the mechanics here. To leave an afterimage that your opponent hits, and then get completely behind them without them even noticing, you would have to be significantly faster than they are (or at least faster than they can track). But if you have two fighters that are presented as roughly equal doing this to each other repeatedly, how is that possible? Is Cell somehow way faster than Goku one second, but Goku is way faster than Cell the next? Fighters that are close enough in speed to keep up with each other should never be able to fool each other with this kind of move.

I think after-images are a BS ability myself.

[Vertical]

I can't charge my punch with ki though.

That doesn't seem to matter... or they wouldn't pull back to punch.

It does matter though, as pulling back just lets you strengthen it further.

No, I'm saying if they didn't gain significant power output from pulling back, they wouldn't.

So, whether you can charge the punch with ki or not, you still want to pull it back and throw it again, as opposed to just pushing through after already being 90% extended.

[Desassina]

The only problem that I have with the teleport counter is that there seems to be no acceleration or momentum. Dragon Ball Super momentarily solved this issue by letting Hit skip time upon moving, which allowed Goku to predict where he would be in a fraction of a second afterwards, since the world was frozen in the perspective of someone who appeared to be teleporting to others. I know that they tried to make the teleport counter different than the instant transmission, by at least having Goku stand in place and focus before disappearing, but the way that the former was animated wasn't as accomplished as the latter. For them to accelerate so fast in the eyes of an opponent, to the point when they would have a hard time breaking, he should be hit equally hard through their momentum.

[Polyphase Avatron]

That doesn't seem to matter... or they wouldn't pull back to punch.

It does matter though, as pulling back just lets you strengthen it further.

No, I'm saying if they didn't gain significant power output from pulling back, they wouldn't.

So, whether you can charge the punch with ki or not, you still want to pull it back and throw it again, as opposed to just pushing through after already being 90% extended.

And what if he throws two or more punches simultaneously? You can't block both with the same finger.

[shadowfox87]

In standard fighting, punches are thrown sequentially and hence if your opponent is fast enough, you can use a single hand to block all of them. One of the first martial arts to introduce this was Jeet Kune Do. The idea was that the more limbs you have available to attack/defend, the more moves you have. Thus, as more advanced martial arts developed, moves would simultaneously attack and defend at the same time because each attack would also have a vulnerability for a counter. If you throw two punches simultaneously, it wouldn't generate enough force to do any damage because the way that a punch is thrown properly is with the entire shoulder, which requires a user to shift their weight unilaterally. This is why you will not see two punches thrown simultaneously in boxing or MMA almost ever. So Beerus or Jiren blocking with a single finger is completely ok.