FUNimation really butchered the pronunciation of Tapion's name

[JohnnyCashKami]

I was watching Movie 13 on Blu-ray (looks really good actually, imo) but since the Japanese audio has terrible audio quality, I decided to switch to the English dub. Now, for the most part FUNimation's dub is fine but it really annoyed me how badly they'd say Tapion's name.

Instead of saying "Tap-eon" they would say "Tape-eon", or something similar.

Here's hoping FUNimation redubs it for the TOEI remasters on Blu-ray.

[VegettoEX]

While I certainly empathize with you, there's nothing particularly noteworthy or significant about this. Falls in line with various pronunciation changes over the years, from "Saiyan" to "Gero" and everything in between.

For the record, with the name being a play on tapioca (and in fact his name was originally going to be literally just that word as-is), yes I do think it should very obviously be pronounced "in English" with the same short "a" sound and that is in fact our style guide here at Kanzenshuu.

[Kamiccolo9]

While I certainly empathize with you, there's nothing particularly noteworthy or significant about this. Falls in line with various pronunciation changes over the years, from "Saiyan" to "Gero" and everything in between.

"Goku."

[Super Sonic]

I was watching Movie 13 on Blu-ray (looks really good actually, imo) but since the Japanese audio has terrible audio quality, I decided to switch to the English dub. Now, for the most part FUNimation's dub is fine but it really annoyed me how badly they'd say Tapion's name.

Instead of saying "Tap-eon" they would say "Tape-eon", or something similar.

Here's hoping FUNimation redubs it for the TOEI remasters on Blu-ray.

If they do, they'd have to recast that bad guy, because I believe he was voiced by Troy Baker, who has since that movie, hit it big and does mainly video games.

[Robo4900]

Now, for the most part FUNimation's dub is fine

If you are familiar with the Japanese script, you'll know this is far from true, unfortunately...

Here's hoping FUNimation redubs it for the TOEI remasters on Blu-ray.

That'd be pretty neat.
Though, I imagine the furthest they'd go as far as redubbing anything would just be minor stuff like we saw in the later "Season" DVDs of Z.

[GTx10]

What exactly is wrong with the Movie 13 Uncut Dub script? Isn't the basic premise the same in either dub? Other than Vegeta's "freak you smashed my house" line what else is truly different?

Also I fully admit that what I'm about to say is not "thread worthy discussion" but really? Not-picking Funi's pronunciation of Tapion? I like to point out that the JAP dub mangled the words "Piccolo," "Trunks," and "Cell." But that gets a pass because why? They say it Japanese-y?
If we can point out "Tapion" then let's point out "Trunks."

[MyVisionity]

Isn't the basic premise the same in either dub?

I think there are some who prefer the FUNimation version to do more than just follow the basic premise of the story, and instead align to the Japanese script as closely as possible.

[JohnnyCashKami]

Now, for the most part FUNimation's dub is fine

If you are familiar with the Japanese script, you'll know this is far from true, unfortunately...

It's fine, but not great. Simply put, it does a serviceable job.

FUNimation really went in deep with Trunks' limited edition toy thingy, eesh! It felt like that shit wasn't ending quick enough.

If we can point out "Tapion" then let's point out "Trunks."

In the old Spanish dub (of Spain), Trunks was called "Trunk" so it was kinda fitting with the Japanese name Torankusu but they've fixed that and changed to Trunks from now on.

[Robo4900]

What exactly is wrong with the Movie 13 Uncut Dub script? Isn't the basic premise the same in either dub? Other than Vegeta's "freak you smashed my house" line what else is truly different?

Also I fully admit that what I'm about to say is not "thread worthy discussion" but really? Not-picking Funi's pronunciation of Tapion? I like to point out that the JAP dub mangled the words "Piccolo," "Trunks," and "Cell." But that gets a pass because why? They say it Japanese-y?
If we can point out "Tapion" then let's point out "Trunks."

If you are familiar with the Japanese script, you'll know this is far from true, unfortunately...

It's fine, but not great. Simply put, it does a serviceable job.
FUNimation really went in deep with Trunks' limited edition toy thingy, eesh! It felt like that shit wasn't ending quick enough.

It really isn't fine, it's just as bad as their other dubs from that time, it's just that everyone forgives it for not being as bad as "Season 3" of Z.

[spoiler]Steve Simmons subtitles:
<Tapion> There was a sect of warlocks that drifted in from somewhere... They took the spirit body of the totem that had absorbed all of the evil will on Planet Conuts, infused it with wicked energy, and transformed it into the phantasm Hildegarn.
<Bulma> Those warlocks must have had incredible demonic powers, huh?
<Tapion> Yes. Hoi was one of their order.
<Bulma> Then we were all completely taken in by that old man. But why is the phantasm within your body?
<Tapion> It's because there was a legendary sword and flute that could control the totem.
<Bulma> By any chance, do you mean those?
<Tapion> Yes. These items were given to us by God. While we suppressed the phantasm's power with the flute, a priest who was in the service of God split the phantasm's body... ...into an upper half and a lower half. ..... And then, Hildegarn's upper half was locked inside my body, and the lower half was locked inside my brother's body. Peace returned to Planet Conuts. As a result, my brother and I were hailed as heroes.
<Bulma> But you were inside that music box, right?
<Tapion> The warlocks tried to retake the phantasm, and began coming after us. And so... ...to locki away the phantasm forever, we had ourselves sealed up inside those music boxes. However, with the two of us near each other, the upper half and the lower half resonated with each other, trying to reunite. In order to keep the phantasm from ever being revived, the two of us were each sent away in pods to different galaxies. However, Hoi wants to make the whole universe his own, so he located both of our music boxes.
<Bulma> Where is your brother?
<Tapion> He has probably been killed already.
<Bulma> We can't let Hoi get away with this.

-

Funimation dub:
<Tapion> But to explain my story, I must start with his. Hoy was a member of the Kash-Phar: Power-hungry aliens who believed themselves to be the superior species of the universe. For eons they've traveled the stars, using their dark magic to hunt down and exterminate all life forms different from their own. On Conose, they revived an evil long thought destroyed by my ancestors: Hirudegarn, a malevolent assassin that consumes its victims and imprisons their life force.
<Bulma> I should've known Hoy was a villain. Those whiskers are a dead giveaway.
<Tapion> Yeah. He murdered half our population.
<Bulma> Just when you think intolerance can't get any worse than it is. So, how did your world handle such an incredbile threat?
<Tapion> It wasn't until we stumbled upon an enchanted sword that we realized we even had a chance.
<Bulma> Oh my gosh. Is that it?
<Tapion> A wizard found it in the wraith's temple. Along with the blade, two ocarinas were discovered. My brother and I used them in hopes of distracting the beast. They must have been enchanted as well, for neither one of us knew how to play. The melody seemed to consume Hirudegarn with rage, but try as it might, the beast could do us no harm. At that moment, the wizard took up the sword and charged. The monster barely had time to react before the blade cleaved him in two. What should have ended there, turned out to be only the beginning. Hirudegarn survived. To prevent it from becoming whole again, the wizard confined it's upper half inside me, and the lower, inside my brother. A small price for victory. My people survived the onslaught, and Minotia and I became heroes.
<Bulma> Hmm. That doesn't explain how you ended up in a music box.
<Tapion> We had no choice. It was the only way to ensure that the Kash-Phar wouldn't be able to get their hands on us, we thought. The wizard agreed to conduct the procedure, but vowed to release us once the Kash-Phar had been brought to justice. We both knew better, but were proud to serve. As a final precaution ordered by our war Council, the boxes were sealed and sent to opposite ends of the farthest galaxies. That was the last time I saw my brother, or my home. Now, here I am, a thousand years later and nothing's changed. Still a prisoner. Outside, looking in.
<Bulma> What about your brother?
<Tapion> I have no idea. Probably dead.
<Bulma> Hoy won't get away with this![/spoiler]

The original meaning is mostly in there, but they've added so many additional elements, changed so many things around, "Spiced up" so many bits, changed the emphasis of so many parts... It's just a really crap job, and the original meaning of the scene is mostly gone.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Re-dubbing the old Z movies is pretty redundant, I'd rather they focus attention to the undubbed specials/OVA's and the two Z specials to re-dub. The two Z specials are more significant compared to the the fluff Z movies and in so much more need of a re-dub & of course stuff that is undubbed would be nice to finally get that dubbed even if they are fluff.

[linkdude20002001]

I like to point out that the JAP dub mangled the words "Piccolo," "Trunks," and "Cell." But that gets a pass because why? They say it Japanese-y?
If we can point out "Tapion" then let's point out "Trunks."

The Japanese pronunciation of foreign words is as accurate to the original pronunciation (as they received it) as it can be. The Japanese pronounce the German word 'arbeit' as アルバイト arbait[o], which is more or less accurate depending on their ability to drop the extra vowels (Assuming they even know that those sounds are extra. It's not like you can tell.). In English, on the other hand, 'karaoke' is pronounced kerry oky. One's as close as it can be to the correct pronunciation while being trapt in the limitations of Japanese, while the other is not close to any logical pronunciation given the rules of ANY language, let alone English. Also, Japanese doesn't have the L-sound... But then, English uses the R-sound for the letters T and D when unstresst, and have a very different sound attacht to the letter R than what most of the world uses. But there's (probably) nothing wrong with swapping out an R for and English R (like how you mite pronounce 'Kuririn') even tho it'd be closer to how it sounds in Japanese if you swapt out the R's for L's (Kulilin). If someone is restricted by their languages limitations, then you can't blame them for it. Only when they COULD pronounce it correctly, but don't.

[GTx10]

I understand that the Japanese language has its "things," all languages do but as a English speaker they are saying "Trunks" wrong. No way around it, so if Funi mispronounced Tapion then that too is wrong but much like you said also applies for the English dub. My point being the way Funi says "Tapion" and the JPN Dub says "Trunks" should fall under scrutiny but also be accepted as totally valid
In regards to the Dub vs Sub thing for Movie 13, yes the Uncut Dub "spices" things up but the same notion gets a across. Evil wizard, Godzilla like monster, Zelda cosplay it is all there.
A little off topic but why do some insist that dubs adhere strictly to the original language's script? When did that become a rule? Lip flaps alone prevent that from happening and their are many shows, games, and etc that translate the JPN script faithfully and they are usually panned for sounding "dull and lifeless." Yes I am being general here but let's call it out here people.

[VegettoEX]

There is too much roundabout talk going on with the Japanese language and how syllables work.

"In English" we absolutely have the syllables and capacity to make the same sounds in base names like "Saiya" and "Tapion" from their original Japanese pronunciation.

Contrasting this, the Japanese phoenetic system really can't make the name/word "Trunks" as-is. Different people with different vocal capacities may be able to do it (the same way someone in America may be able to roll their Rs with the best of them; I am not one of these people!), but that's not the same thing as what the underlying Japanese system allows.

Them (apparently? I've never watched it) saying "tape-eon" is just a total whiff on the name pun. Call a spade a spade.

A little off topic but why do some insist that dubs adhere strictly to the original language's script? When did that become a rule? Lip flaps alone prevent that from happening and their are many shows, games, and etc that translate the JPN script faithfully and they are usually panned for sounding "dull and lifeless." Yes I am being general here but let's call it out here people.

I find this is always a backwards justification for extra flourishes and punch-up scripting. I'm not interested in that. At all. Ever. This has nothing to do with lip flaps and adjusting things for colloquial language and natural delivery; that's literally their base job beyond raw translation. If someone wants to script a different show on top of Dragon Ball to any degree whatsoever, there's a great opening in the fan parody world for them.

If Dragon Ball's faithful script comes across as dull and lifeless, either the performer isn't up to the task, they were directly poorly, or maybe the actual original underlying Dragon Ball material itself is inherently dull and lifeless. (Let's not pretend every line, every scene, every episode, every movie is a total winner in this franchise.)

[Gaffer Tape]

I also feel compelled to add that the art of translating goes hand in hand with the skill of being a good writer. And that's not saying that a translator should be re-writing or taking major liberties or "punching up dialogue," just that translating is more than simply transcribing a collection of words from one language into another. If that person can't express him/herself well in the target language, it doesn't matter how perfect a translation it is. I can practically guarantee that, 9 times out of 10, when someone makes the claim that an accurate translation is "dull and lifeless," that's not because it's translated accurately. It's because the translator either lacks writing ability or can't exercise the translating and writing muscles simultaneously.

[VegettoEX]

I also feel compelled to add that the art of translating goes hand in hand with the skill of being a good writer. And that's not saying that a translator should be re-writing or taking major liberties or "punching up dialogue," just that translating is more than simply transcribing a collection of words from one language into another. If that person can't express him/herself well in the target language, it doesn't matter how perfect a translation it is. I can practically guarantee that, 9 times out of 10, when someone makes the claim that an accurate translation is "dull and lifeless," that's not because it's translated accurately. It's because the translator either lacks writing ability or can't exercise the translating and writing muscles simultaneously.

A million times this.

The reason the Toriyama interviews we have on this site as so interesting to read is a testament to not just the translation skills of Julian and Jake (and now Stacey!), but the breadth and command of the English language at their fingertips to shape that into something readable in that new format/language.

There was a fantastic article I read maybe two years ago going in-depth about the art of translation and how when you read a translation you're reading a non-insignificant part of the translator in addition to the original author. I wish I could dig that up. If anyone knows what I'm talking about, please share it back with me!

That gets a little beyond the intended scope of the thread, but in some ways, it's kinda the same: the person coming up with the pronunciation style for Tapion clearly never heard of tapioca (?!).

[KBABZ]

My girlfriend who speaks Japanese and often uses her skills for crossing the language/culture barrier has said that there's an important difference between translation and localization!

[Robo4900]

My girlfriend who speaks Japanese and often uses her skills for crossing the language/culture barrier has said that there's an important difference between translation and localization!

Yes. Translation is making something in one language understandable in another. Localisation is when a company decides to punch up a script and ruin it for all the hardcore fans.

Joking aside, anyone who actually believes the "funi just have to rephrase it to fit american tendices and the mouth flaps" nonsense is why their Dragon Ball scripts are terrible is living in denial. If you like the Funi dub that's utterly fine, but don't pretend it's a perfect work which is only flawed by utter necessity.
Changing one cultural reference to another in dialogue is one thing, I believe that falls under the umbrella of a Woolseyism, which is an accepted and valid thing in translation. You're making the dialogue understandable to an English audience, so of course you have to change some things to fit their English equivalents instead of just getting what's literally said and putting it into English. Taking liberties to make the dialogue flow in an equivalent way to how it flowed in the original language is also acceptable, and in fact necessary to make the dialogue not be awful. Adding random jokes to a script, drastically altering characterisations, putting in extra dialogue and explanations, changing the worldbuilding, etc. is a bad localisation job, and should be discouraged at every turn, not praised like it is by many Dragon Ball fans.

[MyVisionity]

Adding random jokes to a script, drastically altering characterisations, putting in extra dialogue and explanations, changing the worldbuilding, etc. is a bad localisation job, and should be discouraged at every turn, not praised like it is by many Dragon Ball fans.

Why can't the end result be praised? If those random jokes, altered characterizations, and extra dialogue are all executed adequately enough, then why not give the result its due credit? Discourage the practice perhaps, but not the final product. Or is it all or nothing?

Does scripting a different show on top of Dragon Ball necessarily have to remain in the "fan parody world"? Is there not room for a reworked version of Dragon Ball like FUNi's, that re-imagines things as they see fit? Maybe if they altered the title a bit, so as to not entirely mislead the audience ("FUNimation's Dragon Ball")?

I'm not sure of the answers to these questions, but certainly the argument could be made that FUNimation's dubs are more than simply "crap jobs", whether the original meaning/intent remains or not.

[GTx10]

But what if the Dub writers were told to "punch it up?" Take the Digimon Movie as an example I am sure some boss said "make it so it is 90's extreme!" I recall Sabet saying a lot of their "punching up" was executive meddling. So their job was to add jokes and make it "Americanized."
Whether it is JPN or Uncut Funi Dub Son Goku is still Son Goku. A generally nice, sometimes naive alien who gets his rocks off by fighting. One side may have played up his nice persona more so than the other side but we all know who Son Goku is. As for Tapion maybe the translator and writers didn't understand the puns but I doubt they are bad writers. (For example, how or what is a "Nappa" and how is it a Veggie?)
If you're a writer you either got the job because A) you can clearly write or B) you blew the right boss. Either way the Uncut Funi Dub of Movie 13 is entertaining so the writers can't be blamed, they did their job. Also many have different takes on funny, I for example get a giggle out of "we need... balls!" But someone else may not and thus prefer the JPN Dub. Hell we have seen time and time again that many on here don't appreaciate Dragon Ball's (original) toilet humor.
But I think in the end "Tapion" works because it has the "tap" sound of "tapioca" and still sounds alien which Tapion is.

[ABED]

Hell we have seen time and time again that many on here don't appreaciate Dragon Ball's (original) toilet humor.

So? The job of a dub isn't to decide what they think is funny. It's to translate the dialog and make changes that keep the intent of the writer. Obviously the exact joke might not work, so the job is then to come up with a joke that's in keeping with the spirit of the original. In the case of Kaio, his humor is pun based. Toilet humor isn't for everyone, but it is what Toriyama wrote. The little changes add up, to the point where not everyone knows Goku isn't a Japanese Superman.

If the translators don't understand a rather obvious pun like Tapion, it's their job to find out. Given Toriyama's proclivities for naming characters after food, one would think the name and the pronunciation should be obvious.

putting in extra dialogue and explanations

Not sure what you mean by extra explanations.