"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[prince212]

Once again, Goku knows he needs more power. .

I’m not gonna answer you , roshi will.

O...k... It says exactly what I'm saying.smh Roshi berates him for pursuing "plain old fighting strength". THAT makes no sense if Jiren is able to beat HIM with PLAIN OLD FIGHTING STRENGTH. Roshi doesn't even know U.I., so how could he think his technique will help Goku if supposedly, he knows Jiren is holding back on him as well as Goku? Are you insinuating that Roshi knows UI will give him the power he needs? How the fuck does he know that if he doesn't know how strong Jiren is?

I quoted you saying goku knows he needs more power .... in the picture that I attached is clear that he guess ...and it’s clear that is not about focusing in power
I think it’s very clear man , and your aggressive tone of talking just make you stubborn in your position.
Peace and calm down

[reecehoward]

Once again, Goku knows he needs more power. He never hinted that it was UI(which we all assumed), not even once. He outright displays that his idea was something similar to kaioken. Once that failed, he was at a loss. Nowhere did he so much as harken back to Beerus using it or his teaching with Whis.

Jiren asks Goku if this is the wall he had overcome after tapping into UI. Goku states "PROBABLY," which means he is almost certain!-Pg. 41 ch.39
Jiren then adds "nothing else left on the table right?" Goku confirms with "right, time to settle this." -Pg. 41; Ch. 39

You're factually wrong.

You are correct in a sense, as those techniques gave him a greater understanding of how to bring out his spiritual power. It wasn't through the technique though, it was through the journey of acquiring those skills, his training, that raised his power. There is no journey here. So that doesn't apply. And still, he doesn't even know that it will do that or else he'd be focused on his movements because Goku's rather logical in figuring out techniques. Correlating Goku's comments to gaining more power through UI to what he's been doing to get there is making Goku out to be a complete moron. The Goku I know isn't dumb enough to try to power up into UI when he has outright seen it(Omen) in action.

Yes, the journey was already traveled. That's why Roshi made Goku rethink those techniques that he learned on his journey and apply them. I think you need to read the chapter more carefully.

Dude, that doesn't prove that Goku knew this is what his next powerup would be. All Goku knew was that he had a wall to overcome. He didn't know what was on the other side. You are taking the most vague of dialog and spinning it into something that's not there.

So rethinking techniques can give one a powerboost and a transformation now? What the actual fuck? By your logic, Goku remembering Frieza killing Krillin should be enough for him to gain Super Saiyan Rage Kaioken x300.lol Come on bro, you know this is bullshit. He'd have to go through that journey again for that to make any sense narratively. Back in Dragonball, he got strong through the journey, NOT the technique. This is him getting strong through a technique, not the journey building up to it...Maybe you're the one who should read, and make sure you re read the entire Dragonball series at that.

[reecehoward]

I’m not gonna answer you , roshi will.

O...k... It says exactly what I'm saying.smh Roshi berates him for pursuing "plain old fighting strength". THAT makes no sense if Jiren is able to beat HIM with PLAIN OLD FIGHTING STRENGTH. Roshi doesn't even know U.I., so how could he think his technique will help Goku if supposedly, he knows Jiren is holding back on him as well as Goku? Are you insinuating that Roshi knows UI will give him the power he needs? How the fuck does he know that if he doesn't know how strong Jiren is?

I quoted you saying goku knows he needs more power .... in the picture that I attached is clear that he guess ...and it’s clear that is not about focusing in power
I think it’s very clear man , and your aggressive tone of talking just make you stubborn in your position.
Peace and calm down

I still don't get the point you are trying to make though. The picture literally says what I'm saying. Are you agreeing with me or what?

[prince212]

I still don't get the point you are trying to make though. The picture literally says what I'm saying. Are you agreeing with me or what?

i started my conversation with you quoting your phrase “ goku knows he need more power “
I attached goku saying that he “guess” he needs more power .
And roshi answered him telling him that power is not what he needs .
That’s it , I’m not agreeing with you on that sentence , knowing and guessing is not the same

[Miracles]

Dude, that doesn't prove that Goku knew this is what his next powerup would be. All Goku knew was that he had a wall to overcome. He didn't know what was on the other side. You are taking the most vague of dialog and spinning it into something that's not there.

"Right, there is nothing left on the table, now lets settle things" isn't vague dialogue. It's a confirmation that Goku has reached the state that he was aiming for. Hence why he gave Roshi props as the best teacher and even Whis saying Roshi left something great behind for Goku to use to ascend. The whole scenario was leading up to UI. It's your job to prove Goku had no specific power up in mind when the entire context shows that he did. He just needed to know HOW to get there. Heck he already gained more power via Kaioken gimmick and still was unsatisfied because it wasn't enough. Proving that some random power up with just more power was't gonna guarantee him a chance to compete.

So rethinking techniques can give one a powerboost and a transformation now? What the actual fuck? By your logic, Goku remembering Frieza killing Krillin should be enough for him to gain Super Saiyan Rage Kaioken x300.lol Come on bro, you know this is bullshit. He'd have to go through that journey again for that to make any sense narratively. Back in Dragonball, he got strong through the journey, NOT the technique. This is him getting strong through a technique, not the journey building up to it...Maybe you're the one who should read, and make sure you re read the entire Dragonball series at that.

You are not accurate. Goku already trained for those techniques, he already knew them. So remembering them and FINALLY applying them again at his level of power made him reach UI! A skill that concerns itself with the very same principles Roshi reminded Goku of, the mind/spirit. You got to actually stay with the story, instead of trying to build another road leading to other discussions that has nothing to do with it.

[reecehoward]

I still don't get the point you are trying to make though. The picture literally says what I'm saying. Are you agreeing with me or what?

i started my conversation with you quoting your phrase “ goku knows he need more power “
I attached goku saying that he “guess” he needs more power .
And roshi answered him telling him that power is not what he needs .
That’s it , I’m not agreeing with you on that sentence , knowing and guessing is not the same

Roshi says this and proceeds to show how is method is ineffective because Jiren is stronger and faster. His point is invalidated by Jiren.

[reecehoward]

Dude, that doesn't prove that Goku knew this is what his next powerup would be. All Goku knew was that he had a wall to overcome. He didn't know what was on the other side. You are taking the most vague of dialog and spinning it into something that's not there.

"Right, there is nothing left on the table, now lets settle things" isn't vague dialogue. It's a confirmation that Goku has reached the state that he was aiming for. Hence why he gave Roshi props as the best teacher and even Whis saying Roshi left something great behind for Goku to use to ascend. The whole scenario was leading up to UI. It's your job to prove Goku had no specific power up in mind when the entire context shows that he did. He just needed to know HOW to get there. Heck he already gained more power via Kaioken gimmick and still was unsatisfied because it wasn't enough. Proving that some random power up with just more power was't gonna guarantee him a chance to compete.

So rethinking techniques can give one a powerboost and a transformation now? What the actual fuck? By your logic, Goku remembering Frieza killing Krillin should be enough for him to gain Super Saiyan Rage Kaioken x300.lol Come on bro, you know this is bullshit. He'd have to go through that journey again for that to make any sense narratively. Back in Dragonball, he got strong through the journey, NOT the technique. This is him getting strong through a technique, not the journey building up to it...Maybe you're the one who should read, and make sure you re read the entire Dragonball series at that.

You are not accurate. Goku already trained for those techniques, he already knew them. So remembering them and FINALLY applying them again at his level of power made him reach UI! A skill that concerns itself with the very same principles Roshi reminded Goku of, the mind/spirit. You got to actually stay with the story, instead of trying to build another road leading to other discussions that has nothing to do with it.

No, it's confirmation that Goku has exhausted all options and this is the only thing available on the wall he just overcame. Simple and plain.

Except Goku's BEEN applying his teachings, which is why this chapter is complete bullshit.

You'd be a blatant liar if you say this is him ignoring those teachings.
https://youtu.be/gWLMb8ZYOZo

[Miracles]

No, it's confirmation that Goku has exhausted all options and this is the only thing available on the wall he just overcame. Simple and plain.

But not canon. You have yet to prove Goku was being random and not aiming for UI. Especially when Whis even confirms Goku's intentions about reaching the wall but was going about it the wrong way.

Except Goku's BEEN applying his teachings, which is why this chapter is complete bullshit.

You'd be a blatant liar if you say this is him ignoring those teachings.
https://youtu.be/gWLMb8ZYOZo

Not a good example. This is a different situation. Goku raising his battle power when attacking and lowering it when he's still is not the same as the mental aspects Roshi touched upon. Which Goku wasn't keeping. This situation fits in line with Vegeta switching from red to blue against Black to conserve energy not Goku's current situation.

[reecehoward]

I just found another huge discrepancy. How in the hell is Roshi even able to register Goku and Jiren's fight to even know Goku's what Goku's lacking? Roshi has had to have had a MAJOR buff in order to follow and analyze a fight between Ssb tiers and beyond to the point where he could find weaknesses. This is something he couldn't even do as recent as BoG and RoF.

[prince212]

I still don't get the point you are trying to make though. The picture literally says what I'm saying. Are you agreeing with me or what?

i started my conversation with you quoting your phrase “ goku knows he need more power “
I attached goku saying that he “guess” he needs more power .
And roshi answered him telling him that power is not what he needs .
That’s it , I’m not agreeing with you on that sentence , knowing and guessing is not the same

Roshi says this and proceeds to show how is method is ineffective because Jiren is stronger and faster. His point is invalidated by Jiren.

? That has nothing to do with what I wrote before , I repeat to you : “And roshi answered him telling him that power is not what he needs “
I’m done in this conversation, my last words to you , again with some roshi quotes , adding at the end some of mine
Do you eat well?
Do you rest well ?
Do you learn well?
Do you read well ?

[reecehoward]

No, it's confirmation that Goku has exhausted all options and this is the only thing available on the wall he just overcame. Simple and plain.

But not canon. You have yet to prove Goku was being random and not aiming for UI. Especially when Whis even confirms Goku's intentions about reaching the wall but was going about it the wrong way.

Except Goku's BEEN applying his teachings, which is why this chapter is complete bullshit.

You'd be a blatant liar if you say this is him ignoring those teachings.
https://youtu.be/gWLMb8ZYOZo

Not a good example. This is a different situation. Goku raising his battle power when attacking and lowering when he isn't is not the same as the mental aspects Roshi touched upon. Which Goku wasn't keeping. This situation fits in line with Vegeta switching from red to blue against Black to conserve energy not Goku's current situation.

Did Goku say he was aiming for UI? Nope. He said he was aiming for more power. UI is never described in series as something that will give him more power. That's literally all the info you need. Even more solidifying this is his attempt at a pseudo Kaioken. If UI was his goal, the Goku we all know and love would've attempted the same stances and movements of Beerus from watching the GoD match.

Definitely a good example. He minimized his movements AND was tranquil and quick as a bolt from the blue. Not only that, he was able to move that fast, literally undetected, while his battle power was SUPPRESSED!

[reecehoward]

i started my conversation with you quoting your phrase “ goku knows he need more power “
I attached goku saying that he “guess” he needs more power .
And roshi answered him telling him that power is not what he needs .
That’s it , I’m not agreeing with you on that sentence , knowing and guessing is not the same

Roshi says this and proceeds to show how is method is ineffective because Jiren is stronger and faster. His point is invalidated by Jiren.

? That has nothing to do with what I wrote before , I repeat to you : “And roshi answered him telling him that power is not what he needs “
I’m done in this conversation, my last words to you , again with some roshi quotes , adding at the end some of mine
Do you eat well?
Do you rest well ?
Do you learn well?
Do you read well ?

Apparently you don't read well yourself because I've said time and again why this was stupid. Goku's lack of power was his issue, not his movement.
Goku can't hurt Jiren. So why on earth would Roshi tell Goku to move well as if it would do any good. Roshi's answer was proven wrong the moment Jiren beat him.

[prince212]

Roshi says this and proceeds to show how is method is ineffective because Jiren is stronger and faster. His point is invalidated by Jiren.

? That has nothing to do with what I wrote before , I repeat to you : “And roshi answered him telling him that power is not what he needs “
I’m done in this conversation, my last words to you , again with some roshi quotes , adding at the end some of mine
Do you eat well?
Do you rest well ?
Do you learn well?
Do you read well ?

Apparently you don't read well yourself because I've said time and again why this was stupid. Goku's lack of power was his issue, not his movement.
Goku can't hurt Jiren. So why on earth would Roshi tell Goku to move well as if it would do any good. Roshi's answer was proven wrong the moment Jiren beat him.

you are funny , I never talked about those things or give my opinions , get it . I’m not into your conversation with other users , I just attached a couple of panels and re-write for you to understand that goku did guess he needs power , not knows that he needs , like you said . Thanks for the good time bro

[reecehoward]

? That has nothing to do with what I wrote before , I repeat to you : “And roshi answered him telling him that power is not what he needs “
I’m done in this conversation, my last words to you , again with some roshi quotes , adding at the end some of mine
Do you eat well?
Do you rest well ?
Do you learn well?
Do you read well ?

Apparently you don't read well yourself because I've said time and again why this was stupid. Goku's lack of power was his issue, not his movement.
Goku can't hurt Jiren. So why on earth would Roshi tell Goku to move well as if it would do any good. Roshi's answer was proven wrong the moment Jiren beat him.

you are funny , I never talked about those things or give my opinions , get it . I’m not into your conversation with other users , I just attached a couple of panels and re-write for you to understand that goku did guess he needs power , not knows that he needs , like you said . Thanks for the good time bro

I mean, Goku can't hurt Jiren. Doesn't matter if he knows or guesses or how its worded. The answer is quite obvious to anybody with a brain. If one can't hurt their opponent when their opponent is practically standing still and letting them get hits, would you think it logical for someone to point out that they are losing because their footwork was off? Essentially that's whats happening here. If you have nothing to contribute besides passive aggressive jabs, then why even bother posting that scan in response?

[Miracles]

Did Goku say he was aiming for UI? Nope. He said he was aiming for more power. UI is never described in series as something that will give him more power. That's literally all the info you need. Even more solidifying this is his attempt at a pseudo Kaioken. If UI was his goal, the Goku we all know and love would've attempted the same stances and movements of Beerus from watching the GoD match.

Definitely a good example. He minimized his movements AND was tranquil and quick as a bolt from the blue. Not only that, he was able to move that fast, literally undetected, while his battle power was SUPPRESSED!

You are too excited that you are misreading the text. Vegeta clearly stated Goku moved/attacked while raising his battle power. Not the same principles from this chapter. Also, Goku aiming for UI was shown when he finally stopped searching when he realized the teachings Roshi reminded him of and thanked him for making him "stronger" by finally achieving the form of UI.

[Sora Saiyan]

Can we just say that Roshi decided to impart a final teaching on Goku thinking this could be the end of their universe, and he was just hoping that Goku could go above and beyond this teaching the way he almost always has done. It wasn’t done brilliantly, but Roshi would try and teach Goku something when he can see Goku’s current limit in strength isn’t enough to defeat Jiren in an outright fight, and if he doesn’t teach Goku that, it’s the end.
As we saw from Roshis fight with Kahersal, Roshi didn’t overpower him, he just knocked him out of bounds, and with the current ruling in the tournament people have to be supressed enough as to avoid killing their opponent, so Roshi may be thinking Goku could do to Jiren what he did to Kahersal. Of course there’s no saying it would work, but he had to try. Again, it could’ve been executed a little better, but Roshi has made his way through this tournament with technique so it’s not entirely implausible to see his reasoning, it’s even less unreasonable when you remember the pedestal that Goku’s placed on by his friends, he’s the one that shows up for them when the going gets tough, he’s their hero.

[Yagami1211]

Gohan Vs Kefla 5 pages ?

Goku : How dumb I am. During all those years I never thought about dodging. Thanks Roshi.

[reecehoward]

Did Goku say he was aiming for UI? Nope. He said he was aiming for more power. UI is never described in series as something that will give him more power. That's literally all the info you need. Even more solidifying this is his attempt at a pseudo Kaioken. If UI was his goal, the Goku we all know and love would've attempted the same stances and movements of Beerus from watching the GoD match.

Definitely a good example. He minimized his movements AND was tranquil and quick as a bolt from the blue. Not only that, he was able to move that fast, literally undetected, while his battle power was SUPPRESSED!

You are too excited that you are misreading the text. Vegeta clearly stated Goku moved/attacked while raising his battle power. Not the same principles from this chapter. Also, Goku aiming for UI was shown when he finally stopped searching when he realized the teachings Roshi reminded him of and thanked him for making him "stronger" by finally achieving the form of UI.

And you are the one who are constantly twisting what happened and what I said. Prior to whatever Roshi said, Goku was not trying to do UI, or else he'd have been trying the same moves he saw Beerus use. He was trying to power himself up, which is logical because he can't hurt Jiren. He couldn't tap into a great enough power to make any difference. Roshi scolds him for focusing on "plain old fighting strength" and forgetting his teachings. Proceeds to demonstrate pseudo UI. Catches Jiren "off guard" for a flurry of attacks. Jiren proceeds to bypass whatever knowledge Roshi was trying impart on Goku with "plain old fighting strength". You keep saying I'm misreading it, but you've yet to provide an actual counter to what happened.

The video proves several things:

1. Goku can use his fundamentals to move undetected and without wasted movements. Regardless of his power spiking when he does so, this is the fundamental principle of what he was taught, as he's not wasting his energy at all and striking with absolute precision.

2. Goku was able to block two guys attacks while not even looking in either direction. He was completely calm.

3.Goku can dodge.lol

4. If Goku can follow two opponents while suppressed AND raise his speed and power for his offense without killing them...you should be able to figure out who this applies to.

[Miracles]

Did Goku say he was aiming for UI? Nope. He said he was aiming for more power. UI is never described in series as something that will give him more power. That's literally all the info you need. Even more solidifying this is his attempt at a pseudo Kaioken. If UI was his goal, the Goku we all know and love would've attempted the same stances and movements of Beerus from watching the GoD match.

Definitely a good example. He minimized his movements AND was tranquil and quick as a bolt from the blue. Not only that, he was able to move that fast, literally undetected, while his battle power was SUPPRESSED!

You are too excited that you are misreading the text. Vegeta clearly stated Goku moved/attacked while raising his battle power. Not the same principles from this chapter. Also, Goku aiming for UI was shown when he finally stopped searching when he realized the teachings Roshi reminded him of and thanked him for making him "stronger" by finally achieving the form of UI.

And you are the one who are constantly twisting what happened and what I said. Prior to whatever Roshi said, Goku was not trying to do UI, or else he'd have been trying the same moves he saw Beerus use. He was trying to power himself up, which is logical because he can't hurt Jiren. He couldn't tap into a great enough power to make any difference. Roshi scolds him for focusing on "plain old fighting strength" and forgetting his teachings. Proceeds to demonstrate pseudo UI. Catches Jiren "off guard" for a flurry of attacks. Jiren proceeds to bypass whatever knowledge Roshi was trying impart on Goku with "plain old fighting strength". You keep saying I'm misreading it, but you've yet to provide an actual counter to what happened.

The video proves several things:

1. Goku can use his fundamentals to move undetected and without wasted movements. Regardless of his power spiking when he does so, this is the fundamental principle of what he was taught, as he's not wasting his energy at all and striking with absolute precision.

2. Goku was able to block two guys attacks while not even looking in either direction. He was completely calm.

3.Goku can dodge.lol

4. If Goku can follow two opponents while suppressed AND raise his speed and power for his offense without killing them...you should be able to figure out who this applies to.

I am not gonna indulge you in your headcannon anymore...

1. The video doesn't prove anything you say cause what you state doesn't match the dialogue. That was a physical feat based on preserving stamina and attacking with high battle power on WEAKER people. Has nothing to do with the spiritual teachings in this chapter of Super about overcoming to a higher level. Show me where that scene was based on Popo's teachings? Where is the dialogue to confirm you? Where is Kamesenin's images or Kami text? Raising battle power when attacking and lowering when idle matches Vegeta and Goku's red and Blue switch technique. Not the teachings of UI.

2. Goku agreed with Hit that there is a transformation beyond Blue. He said it's the ONLY chance he has in beating Jiren. So what was the next level of power the story was telling the audience up until this point? Goku observing Beerus UI, Whis telling Vegeta about UI and Vegeta stating if he'd master that he could take on any opponent, Whis confirms. In this chapter we have Whis CONFIRM Goku's intentions about overcoming the wall but he was going about it the wrong way. Goku falsely thought he could power himself to UI. He needed to be reminded it's not just about power but about spirit as well. So he FINALLY transforms and thanks Roshi for making him "stronger." Goku also agrees with Jiren about there being "NOTHING LEFT ON THE TABLE" FOR HIM, which means he has reached his goal...His transformation.

Again...What was the transformation beyond Blue Goku was aiming for? What did the story talk about up to this point? It was UI! Where is this mysterious transformation other than UI you speak of? Now show me in the story where this other random power you keep telling me about that Goku was looking for?

[reecehoward]

You are too excited that you are misreading the text. Vegeta clearly stated Goku moved/attacked while raising his battle power. Not the same principles from this chapter. Also, Goku aiming for UI was shown when he finally stopped searching when he realized the teachings Roshi reminded him of and thanked him for making him "stronger" by finally achieving the form of UI.

And you are the one who are constantly twisting what happened and what I said. Prior to whatever Roshi said, Goku was not trying to do UI, or else he'd have been trying the same moves he saw Beerus use. He was trying to power himself up, which is logical because he can't hurt Jiren. He couldn't tap into a great enough power to make any difference. Roshi scolds him for focusing on "plain old fighting strength" and forgetting his teachings. Proceeds to demonstrate pseudo UI. Catches Jiren "off guard" for a flurry of attacks. Jiren proceeds to bypass whatever knowledge Roshi was trying impart on Goku with "plain old fighting strength". You keep saying I'm misreading it, but you've yet to provide an actual counter to what happened.

The video proves several things:

1. Goku can use his fundamentals to move undetected and without wasted movements. Regardless of his power spiking when he does so, this is the fundamental principle of what he was taught, as he's not wasting his energy at all and striking with absolute precision.

2. Goku was able to block two guys attacks while not even looking in either direction. He was completely calm.

3.Goku can dodge.lol

4. If Goku can follow two opponents while suppressed AND raise his speed and power for his offense without killing them...you should be able to figure out who this applies to.

I am not gonna indulge you in your headcannon anymore...

1. The video doesn't prove anything you say cause what you state doesn't match the dialogue. That was a physical feat based on preserving stamina and attacking with high battle power on WEAKER people. Has nothing to do with the spiritual teachings in this chapter of Super about overcoming to a higher level. Show me where that scene was based on Popo's teachings? Where is the dialogue to confirm you? Where is Kamesenin's images or Kami text? Raising battle power when attacking and lowering when idle matches Vegeta and Goku's red and Blue switch technique. Not the teachings of UI.

2. Goku agreed with Hit that there is a transformation beyond Blue. He said it's the ONLY chance he has in beating Jiren. So what was the next level of power the story was telling the audience up until this point? Goku observing Beerus UI, Whis telling Vegeta about UI and Vegeta stating if he'd master that he could take on any opponent, Whis confirms. In this chapter we have Whis CONFIRM Goku's intentions about overcoming the wall but he was going about it the wrong way. Goku falsely thought he could power himself to UI. He needed to be reminded it's not just about power but about spirit as well. So he FINALLY transforms and thanks Roshi for making him "stronger." Goku also agrees with Jiren about there being "NOTHING LEFT ON THE TABLE" FOR HIM, which means he has reached his goal...His transformation.

Again...What was the transformation beyond Blue Goku was aiming for? What did the story talk about up to this point? It was UI! Where is this mysterious transformation other than UI you speak of?No show me in the story where this other random power you keep telling me about that Goku was looking for?

1. Goku literally does what Popo says in that quote.lol You want this Roshi scene to work so bad that you are going to dismiss something this blatant.smh

2. Goku also knew that he needed a new power beyond Super Saiyan back in the Android arc. He didn't know exactly what that form would be. He didn't figure it out until he crossed that line through his training. Same here. He knows he needs something, he doesn't figure out what it is until he sees Roshi.