Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Random question:

How strong would you consider Base Kale to be before and after the Tournament Of Power?

For simplicity's sake and making everything easier to digest, I personally put her at the exact same level as the other Saiyans: relatively even in equivalent forms.

That means base form and Super Saiyan forms, though her Super Saiyan forms are really f**king weird. Her "normal" SS form seems to be relatively similar in power to the regular SS2 form, and her "SS2" form could range anywhere from normal SS3 up to almost SSG.

[ZombieVito]

Having finished rewatching the Resurrection F Saga and having asked a few questions. This is how I'd rank the characters up to this point.

Whis
Beerus

Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Goku
Super Saiyan God Goku

Goku | Vegeta | Frieza (Final Form)

Super Saiyan Goku (Ritual)
Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan Gotenks

Good Buu
Frieza (First Form)
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta (BoG)
Super Saiyan Gohan

Piccolo
Gotenks
Android 18

Captain Ginyu
Goku | Vegeta (BoG)
Gohan | Tagoma
Goten | Trunks

Krillin
Tien Shinhan
Master Roshi (Max Power)
Jaco

Why is Tagoma and Ginyu that low? They should be over Piccolo.

Base Gotenks shouldn't be stronger than Namek Freeza so 18 should be over him as well.

Wouldn't Boo be stronger than SS Gotenks since they actually wanted him in there fighting Freeza? Gotenks arrived and they said to him to not fight Freeza.

[PFM18]

It's when you start making comparisons to the other characters that it becomes a bit hard to swallow.

If Super Saiyan Goku is as strong or stronger than Super Saiyan God then it means Super Saiyan Goku would be stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito. Which would naturally mean Base Goku would be stronger than Base Vegito.

In Dragon Ball Z Kai which precedes Dragon Ball Super, Base Vegito was on par with Buuhan. So it'd mean someone like Base Cabba would probably be stronger than Buuhan.

Yeah this all makes sense to me. I have Cabba being just below SSJ Vegetto and obviously his SSJ would be stronger than SSG because his SSJ is on par with current SSJ Vegeta. I see no reason why Cabba can't be stronger than Buuhan in his Base. That is simply the natural progression of this series. It shocked nobody when the likes of Tenshinhan, Kururin, and a basically toddler Gohan had surpassed Raditz in a year who had been heralded as being this ridiculously strong fighter who could take on the Earth's two strongest fighters at the time 2v1 and dominate them.

Vegeta who was the previous strongest enemy is equaled or surpassed by literally like 8 of Freeza's henchman. Cui, Dodoria, Zarbon, Guldo, Burter, Recoome, Jeice, and Ginyu were as strong or stronger than the previous main villain despite all being relatively inconsequential characters themselves.

The Androids being built on Earth by some scientist vastly surpass the Galactic Tyrant himself. etc etc.

The natural progression of the series is that the next enemy is superior to the previous as the power of the fighters go up and up as a byproduct of the main cast's propensity to get stronger and love doing it. It would be strange if Base Cabba DIDN'T surpass Buuhan.

Bergamo was on par with Base Goku so he should be stronger than Buuhan but then his brother Basil wasn't even as strong as Good Buu even powered up with the drug.

We never get a good chance to gauge Bergamo because he was just absorbing Goku's power rather than using his own. So we really have no clue where his actual power lies. And even if he were as strong as Base Goku, alll that means is that as the oldest brother he is vastly stronger than his younger, inferior brothers.

[Bullza]

Why is Tagoma and Ginyu that low? They should be over Piccolo.

Well that's where the confusion comes into it. They said Tagoma was on par with Gohan but he stomped Piccolo who should be far above Gohan.

So either Gohan was wrong, there was an error in Herms' translation as the official sub says "as good as Gohan at his best", though that's not the case either or Piccolo was nerfed and or the weights got in the way.

Wouldn't Boo be stronger than SS Gotenks since they actually wanted him in there fighting Freeza? Gotenks arrived and they said to him to not fight Freeza.

I can't remember what they said about Gotenks now. What part was that? Still back in Z he should have been even stronger than Fat Buu nevermind the much weaker Good Buu.

The natural progression of the series is that the next enemy is superior to the previous as the power of the fighters go up and up as a byproduct of the main cast's propensity to get stronger and love doing it. It would be strange if Base Cabba DIDN'T surpass Buuhan.

Then they'd all be so strong that it would make you wonder why they were that bothered why Buu couldn't take part. They'd all slaughter him with no effort. Frost should be even stronger than Cabba and Piccolo was weaker than Buu but they said that had Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon landed then he'd have won.

That'd be like Piccolo taking out Super Vegito.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Base Goku should be overwhelmingly superior to SS3 Vegetto, using SSG would have been completely pointless otherwise.

[TheOne]

Having finished rewatching the Resurrection F Saga and having asked a few questions. This is how I'd rank the characters up to this point.

Whis
Beerus

Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Goku
Super Saiyan God Goku

Goku | Vegeta | Frieza (Final Form)

Super Saiyan Goku (Ritual)
Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan Gotenks

Good Buu
Frieza (First Form)
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta (BoG)
Super Saiyan Gohan

Piccolo
Gotenks
Android 18

Captain Ginyu
Goku | Vegeta (BoG)
Gohan | Tagoma
Goten | Trunks

Krillin
Tien Shinhan
Master Roshi (Max Power)
Jaco

Why is Tagoma and Ginyu that low? They should be over Piccolo.

Base Gotenks shouldn't be stronger than Namek Freeza so 18 should be over him as well.

Wouldn't Boo be stronger than SS Gotenks since they actually wanted him in there fighting Freeza? Gotenks arrived and they said to him to not fight Freeza.

What are talking about Base Gotenks shouldn’t be strong than Namek Frieza?! The boys are as strong as him individually. Why in the world would they be weaker fused...?

If you’re going by Z logic, SSJ Gotenks would take down regular Boo. Super? Your guess is as good as mine.

[PFM18]

Then they'd all be so strong that it would make you wonder why they were that bothered why Buu couldn't take part. They'd all slaughter him with no effort. Frost should be even stronger than Cabba and Piccolo was weaker than Buu but they said that had Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon landed then he'd have won.

That'd be like Piccolo taking out Super Vegito.

They had no idea what they would be up against so them being confident in Buu makes sense. Either way, Buu has a ridiciculous amount of hax abilities that would allow him to bridge large gaps in power.

Frost was also heavily weakened and still vastly stronger than Piccolo. And if Golden Freeza and Jiren are any indication, being weakened can make an astronomical difference. Piccolo fought a weakened Frost, was still weaker, and was able to bridge the gap with a charged SBC which allows him to exert far more power than he is normally capable of. Goku even told Piccolo he had no chance against Frost.

[dragon boss z]

Base Goku should be overwhelmingly superior to SS3 Vegetto, using SSG would have been completely pointless otherwise.

SSG is much stronger than base. base Goku<<<ssj3 Vegeto<SSG (initial)<current SSG

What are talking about Base Gotenks shouldn’t be strong than Namek Frieza?! The boys are as strong as him individually. Why in the world would they be weaker fused...?

I agree base Gotenks is above Frieza, but there is no proof Goten and Trunks are stronger than Frieza, especially not in base.

Having finished rewatching the Resurrection F Saga and having asked a few questions. This is how I'd rank the characters up to this point.

[spoiler]Whis
Beerus

Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Goku
Super Saiyan God Goku

Goku | Vegeta | Frieza (Final Form)

Super Saiyan Goku (Ritual)
Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan Gotenks

Good Buu
Frieza (First Form)
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta (BoG)
Super Saiyan Gohan

Piccolo
Gotenks
Android 18

Captain Ginyu
Goku | Vegeta (BoG)
Gohan | Tagoma
Goten | Trunks

Krillin
Tien Shinhan
Master Roshi (Max Power)
Jaco[/spoiler]

Pretty good list. I would just put Gotenks above Piccolo. Other's mentioned the Tagoma/Ginyu thing, but as you mentioned that whole thing is just weird. I just ignore it as toei nonsense for the most part.

[RecolorSaiyan]

My manga rankings:

Jiren > Gohan = SS Kafla > MSSB Goku=MSSB Vegeta=Toppo>=Kale>=Golden Freeza

[ZombieVito]

Why is Tagoma and Ginyu that low? They should be over Piccolo.

Well that's where the confusion comes into it. They said Tagoma was on par with Gohan but he stomped Piccolo who should be far above Gohan.

So either Gohan was wrong, there was an error in Herms' translation as the official sub says "as good as Gohan at his best", though that's not the case either or Piccolo was nerfed and or the weights got in the way.

Wouldn't Boo be stronger than SS Gotenks since they actually wanted him in there fighting Freeza? Gotenks arrived and they said to him to not fight Freeza.

I can't remember what they said about Gotenks now. What part was that? Still back in Z he should have been even stronger than Fat Buu nevermind the much weaker Good Buu.

The natural progression of the series is that the next enemy is superior to the previous as the power of the fighters go up and up as a byproduct of the main cast's propensity to get stronger and love doing it. It would be strange if Base Cabba DIDN'T surpass Buuhan.

Then they'd all be so strong that it would make you wonder why they were that bothered why Buu couldn't take part. They'd all slaughter him with no effort. Frost should be even stronger than Cabba and Piccolo was weaker than Buu but they said that had Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon landed then he'd have won.

That'd be like Piccolo taking out Super Vegito.

Well the way I explain this is that Tagoma simply wasn't at full power when Gohan said that. Piccolo sensing this gets cocky and rushes at him only for Tagoma to go serious and wreck him.

SS Gohan > Ginyu > Tagoma >> Piccolo >>> Base Gohan.

When Gotenks arrives, he wants to fight Freeza but they tell him he's no opponent for him and before he can do anything he defuses. On the other hand it was said that everything will be alright if Boo was there.

When exactly in Z does SS Gotenks is said to be stronger than Boo by te way? Daizenshuu says he is weaker than Vegeta before the RoSaT and he only trained there for a week.

[RecolorSaiyan]

If Tagoma was "as strong as gohan at his peak " which means Ultimate Gohan who was much stronger than Super Buu who was >> Fat Buu, then why exactly would Fat Buu have any chance vs Freeza especially since 1st form Freeza > Tagoma ?

[TheOne]

Base Goku should be overwhelmingly superior to SS3 Vegetto, using SSG would have been completely pointless otherwise.

SSG is much stronger than base. base Goku<<<ssj3 Vegeto<SSG (initial)<current SSG

What are talking about Base Gotenks shouldn’t be strong than Namek Frieza?! The boys are as strong as him individually. Why in the world would they be weaker fused...?

I agree base Gotenks is above Frieza, but there is no proof Goten and Trunks are stronger than Frieza, especially not in base.

Having finished rewatching the Resurrection F Saga and having asked a few questions. This is how I'd rank the characters up to this point.

[spoiler]Whis
Beerus

Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Goku
Super Saiyan God Goku

Goku | Vegeta | Frieza (Final Form)

Super Saiyan Goku (Ritual)
Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan Gotenks

Good Buu
Frieza (First Form)
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta (BoG)
Super Saiyan Gohan

Piccolo
Gotenks
Android 18

Captain Ginyu
Goku | Vegeta (BoG)
Gohan | Tagoma
Goten | Trunks

Krillin
Tien Shinhan
Master Roshi (Max Power)
Jaco[/spoiler]

Pretty good list. I would just put Gotenks above Piccolo. Other's mentioned the Tagoma/Ginyu thing, but as you mentioned that whole thing is just weird. I just ignore it as toei nonsense for the most part.

I’m essentially going based off of the Tarble special. When stated they were as strong as Frieza, Goku and Vegeta thought this could be a good challenge for them. Once theyfused, it became a different story. But I think you could easily put them on Freeza's level. Not only that, they gave 18 some trouble in the tournament. We all know exactly how much stronger 18 was compared to Frieza on Namek. It’s not the best way to gauge, but there’s no reason to believe they’d lose to Frieza in a straight up power fight back then.

That aside, Goten and Trunks trained seriously for 6 weeks in the hyperbolic time chamber. I’d be willing to believe they made some serious gains there seeing as how they’re hybrids.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The way I see it with regards to the base Saiyans prior to DBS's events, they were close enough to Freeza's full-power that they could at least go a few rounds if he wasn't fully-powered up. But once he hits 120 million and stops messing around? Then they stand no chance.

For example, say Goku was around 60-80 million before Beerus showed up? He'd be able to easily fight Freeza besides Freeza's full-power; Goten and Trunks could probably do the same if Freeza were holding back a bit more.

[PFM18]

base Goku<<<ssj3 Vegeto<SSG (initial)<current SSG

Depends what Base Goku you are talking about. By the time of the ToP Goku should have surpassed SSJ3 Vegetto in his Base.

Since we have that:

SSJ Goku(post-ritual)~SSG Goku>SSJ3 Vegetto>Base Goku(post-ritual)

Where Base Goku(post-ritual)=SSG/50

and if we assume that SSG Goku is twice as strong as SSJ3 Vegetto, then Goku would only have to gain a 25x boost from the time that the SSG wore off in episode 13 to the end of the series. Which, I certainly think a 25x boost from all the training and fighting and what not is easily achievable. Personally, I'd estimate it at around 30x and so I'd say ToP Base Goku is stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto by a bit

But I believe RoF Base Goku was the one being referenced and I don't think Base Goku had surpassed SSJ Vegetto from Z let alone SSJ3 so I'd be inclined to agree

[ekrolo2]

How big would you guys make the SSG multiplier? Using Vegetto as a starting point (we don't really have any other way), I've come up with this.

Daizenshu 7 says that Vegetto's Base form power is superior to a Super Saiyan 3, it doesn't specify if it means Goku or Gotenks but I take this to mean the accumulated multiplier of power between Goku & Vegeta fusing resulted in a boost above that of an SS3 which is x400 Base. Since I tend to lowball gains and such, I'll just say that Base Vegetto is x500 stronger than Base Goku or Base Vegeta. Using existing this along with existing multipliers, we get the following:

1 - Base Goku
50 - SS1 Goku
100 - SS2 Goku
400 - SS3 Goku

500 - Base Vegetto
25,000 - SS1 Vegetto
50,000 - SS2 Vegetto
200,000 - SS3 Vegetto

With the well-known "fusion won't work!" statement from Goku when talking about beating Beerus, SSGod has to make Goku above x200,000 Base power to put him above SS3 Vegetto. In the Super manga, Goku says he feels like a whole new world was opened up to him but this is a very vague statement which doesn't help us solidify anything. In the anime, he says he never thought a power like this was attainable which can mean one of two things 1) SSGod is absurdly above SS3 Vegetto which is entirely possible or 2) Goku never thought he could reach a level of power like this without fusion or some other trickery. Either one is valid but since I'm already a lowballer, I'll go with the second meaning.

Taking all of this into account, my personal stance for SSGods multiplier is it being exactly x1 million Base power, about 5 times stronger than a hypothetical SS3 Vegetto using these numbers.

[dragon boss z]

I’m essentially going based off of the Tarble special. When stated they were as strong as Frieza, Goku and Vegeta thought this could be a good challenge for them. Once theyfused, it became a different story. But I think you could easily put them on Freeza's level. Not only that, they gave 18 some trouble in the tournament. We all know exactly how much stronger 18 was compared to Frieza on Namek. It’s not the best way to gauge, but there’s no reason to believe they’d lose to Frieza in a straight up power fight back then.

That aside, Goten and Trunks trained seriously for 6 weeks in the hyperbolic time chamber. I’d be willing to believe they made some serious gains there seeing as how they’re hybrids.

I'm pretty sure Abo and Cado were only as strong as first form Frieza, as that is all Tarble should know, and in the manga version first form Frieza is shown when he references Frieza earlier. And in the manga base Goten and Trunks got dominated by 18 while she was holding back. It only lasted a few pages and they were almost instantly forced to go ssj while 18 didn't even break a sweat. Plus the Frieza>base Goku statement by Beerus, I can't justify putting base Goten and Trunks even close to full power Frieza. Their ssj form is another story, but their base is fodder.

The way I see it with regards to the base Saiyans prior to DBS's events, they were close enough to Freeza's full-power that they could at least go a few rounds if he wasn't fully-powered up. But once he hits 120 million and stops messing around? Then they stand no chance.

For example, say Goku was around 60-80 million before Beerus showed up? He'd be able to easily fight Freeza besides Freeza's full-power; Goten and Trunks could probably do the same if Freeza were holding back a bit more.

I agree with this.

If Tagoma was "as strong as gohan at his peak " which means Ultimate Gohan who was much stronger than Super Buu who was >> Fat Buu, then why exactly would Fat Buu have any chance vs Freeza especially since 1st form Freeza > Tagoma ?

They must have meant peak base Gohan, as if Tagoma was strong as Gohans beak, how the heck would he get dominated by a weaker rusty version of Gohan? Tagoma<rusty ssj Gohan is a fact. Not sure why people keep saying that statement puts him at ultimate Gohan level when by feats he clearly isn't.

[ZombieVito]

Daizenshu 7 says that Vegetto's Base form power is superior to a Super Saiyan 3

It never says the form.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Daizenshu 7 says that Vegetto's Base form power is superior to a Super Saiyan 3

It never says the form.

It says he's stronger than a Super Saiyan 3, and then says he can transform. Given the context it's clearly referring to his base state.

[shadowfox87]

How big would you guys make the SSG multiplier? Using Vegetto as a starting point (we don't really have any other way), I've come up with this.

Daizenshu 7 says that Vegetto's Base form power is superior to a Super Saiyan 3, it doesn't specify if it means Goku or Gotenks but I take this to mean the accumulated multiplier of power between Goku & Vegeta fusing resulted in a boost above that of an SS3 which is x400 Base. Since I tend to lowball gains and such, I'll just say that Base Vegetto is x500 stronger than Base Goku or Base Vegeta. Using existing this along with existing multipliers, we get the following:

I did this already in my log scale thread, so I'll just copy it here:

Goku could not even touch Beerus as an SSJ3 and stated that even with fusion, he would have no chance against Beerus. Goku would know the maximum potential as Vegito.
So SSG Goku > SSJ3 Vegito by logic.
In addition, the Daizenshuu 7, Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku

I will assume that this statement refers to the point in time when Vegito made his appearance and not the Vegito at the end of DBZ. Hence:
SSJ Vegito > Buuhan > Base Vegito > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ Gotenks ~ SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga)

Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku (Daizenshuu 7)
Base Vegito > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku
Base Vegito > 1.5x Buutenks > 1.3x Ultimate Gohan > 1.25x SSJ3 Gotenks > 8x SSJ Gotenks ~ SSJ3 Goku
Base Vegito > 1.5x 1.5x 1.5x 8x SSJ3 Goku
Base Vegito > 19.5x SSJ3 Goku
Base Vegito ~ 20x SSJ3 Goku

SSG Goku (BoG)> SSJ3 Vegito (BoG)
SSG > 1.5x SSJ3 Vegito
SSG > 1.5x 400x 20x 400x Base Goku
SSG > 4.8 billion x Base Goku
SSG ~ 5 million (5E6) x Base Goku

It seems very large, but this is the only way to explain Goku's massive increase in power that eclipses any of his previous forms including fusion to stand a chance against Beerus. This is also the only way to meet the conditions that SSG Goku > SSJ3 Vegito.

You can pick higher or lower gaps between the characters to derive it. I picked pretty low gaps (1.25 to 1.5) though.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Is Potential Unleashed the most broken state that a saiyan could have when it comes to just raw power ?