Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RecolorSaiyan]

If I were to highball the ssg multiplier I'd say 400,000 * base. Like others above have said, its not quite the otherworldly power that it was made out to be in BoG

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The way I see it, I like to liken base Goku and other Saiyans of a similar level around the level of Vegito in equivalent forms.

With that in mind, SSG is, in my mind, around 5000 times greater than current base Goku, etc.

About 12.5 times greater than SS3 Goku/Buu Arc Vegito, a level likely similar to SS4 Goku from DBGT.

[PFM18]

Which of these power scaling excuses/justifications is the worst? Rank them

- X is holding back/suppressed
- X is a prodigy
- X can compete with Y because X is skilled and experienced

All three of these are equally bad if they're presupposed for an instance without any statement in the show to confirm them. At that point, it's less about internal consistency and more about post-hoc rationalizations to ease the viewer's mind.

If they're specifically indicated, on the other hand, that's fine.

In the case of characters holding back, it is a common trope and you shouldn't expect it to be explicitly stated every single time it happens. Goku vs Kururin is a good example of this.

I ignore the anime's thing with Vegetto since its just filler.

This is perfectly reasonable to do of course since it is filler. I personally consider it because it makes sense to me considering the rival boost, the emphasis on the potara boost in general, and the implication that Vegetto>Gokhan in Base. It isn't necessarily contradicted in the manga so I still use it.

And now I've had it fully confirmed by Gohan surpassing SSB with about a year in the gravity chamber. That'll yield good returns, sure, especially someone with his potential, but thousands of times stronger? Yeah I don't think so.

Well, we don't even know for certain that Gohan has surpassed SSB at all. Given the contradictory scaling of the manga, it isn't clear because it is stated by Kururin that Gohan<Goku, but Gohan beat somebody who should be far superior to CSSB Goku. So there's a case for Gohan being stronger or weaker than SSB depending on which instance you take more seriously but you are forced to choose due to the poor execution in the manga.

The problem here is that you are arbitrarily deciding how much of a boost is actually possible and using that to discredit what is actually shown. There isn't some ambiguous cap on how much power you can gain during a set period of time and the fact that he did this in only a year is evidence of absolutely nothing. If anything, it is just an example of ridiculous on Toyotaro's part rather than evidence against SSG/SSB being incredibly large multipliers.

And since it was in both the anime and manga, Ultimate Gohan getting to that tier was almost certainly in the outline.

Well "it" wasn't in the anime and the manga because anime Gohan was close to, but decidedly below SSB and in the manga given that he beat Kefla should be far above SSB.

just treats his Ultimate form as bringing back his old Z power, yet he's still close enough to SSB tier to do something.

Well, no it isn't. His "old power" is treated as the Ultimate form itself. Gohan gains back his Ultimate form and that is the "power he used against Buu" and he had been training since RoF in the anime. Additionally, he trains further from the time when this "old power" was mentioned so there's no real implication that he is the same power as his Z self.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Which of these power scaling excuses/justifications is the worst? Rank them

- X is holding back/suppressed
- X is a prodigy
- X can compete with Y because X is skilled and experienced

All three of these are equally bad if they're presupposed for an instance without any statement in the show to confirm them. At that point, it's less about internal consistency and more about post-hoc rationalizations to ease the viewer's mind.

If they're specifically indicated, on the other hand, that's fine.

In the case of characters holding back, it is a common trope and you shouldn't expect it to be explicitly stated every single time it happens. Goku vs Kururin is a good example of this.

Those ones are easy to tell but what about when you get Freeza claiming he wasn't serious vs Kale or Blue Goku vs BSSJ Kale in episode 100?
In the vacuum of just that chapter/episode alone and without future info, how does one tell what really went on?
You can say "battle damage" but that could just be an art error,we saw this with freeza in episode 126 where 10 seconds after taking a hakai and having his head squished, he was up and didn't look all that messed up from what i remember

[PFM18]

If I were to highball the ssg multiplier I'd say 400,000 * base. Like others above have said, its not quite the otherworldly power that it was made out to be in BoG

As far as the anime is concerned the multiplier isn't the same from the time that he gained it for the first time from the ritual and when he uses it in the ToP. It is strongly implied by the events of the ToP and it wouldn't really make much sense for the multiplier to stay the same considering it was stated Goku "made the power his own."

I have the pre-ritual version of SSG being 8M times base and the current iteration being around a 800-1,000 times Base.

[ekrolo2]

I ignore the anime's thing with Vegetto since its just filler.

This is perfectly reasonable to do of course since it is filler. I personally consider it because it makes sense to me considering the rival boost, the emphasis on the potara boost in general, and the implication that Vegetto>Gokhan in Base. It isn't necessarily contradicted in the manga so I still use it.

It's not entirely without precedent, El Manga Legendario seems to think Base Vegetto is stronger than Gokhan who is in turn above Bootenks but that one also says Grade 3 is 10 times stronger than Grade 2 which is above SS1 so, yeah, iffyness ensues

[RecolorSaiyan]

If I were to highball the ssg multiplier I'd say 400,000 * base. Like others above have said, its not quite the otherworldly power that it was made out to be in BoG

As far as the anime is concerned the multiplier isn't the same from the time that he gained it for the first time from the ritual and when he uses it in the ToP. It is strongly implied by the events of the ToP and it wouldn't really make much sense for the multiplier to stay the same considering it was stated Goku "made the power his own."

I have the pre-ritual version of SSG being 8M times base and the current iteration being around a 800-1,000 times Base.

So only 2-2.5 times stronger than ss3?

I guess i could see that. ssj2 goku was able to somewhat manage himself although still at a disadvantage vs mastered berserk/ssj2 kale yet when he went ssg , he didn't completely overwhelm her even though he got the edge

[PFM18]

If I were to highball the ssg multiplier I'd say 400,000 * base. Like others above have said, its not quite the otherworldly power that it was made out to be in BoG

As far as the anime is concerned the multiplier isn't the same from the time that he gained it for the first time from the ritual and when he uses it in the ToP. It is strongly implied by the events of the ToP and it wouldn't really make much sense for the multiplier to stay the same considering it was stated Goku "made the power his own."

I have the pre-ritual version of SSG being 8M times base and the current iteration being around a 800-1,000 times Base.

So only 2-2.5 times stronger than ss3?

I guess i could see that. ssj2 goku was able to somewhat manage himself although still at a disadvantage vs mastered berserk/ssj2 kale yet when he went ssg , he didn't completely overwhelm her even though he got the edge

Yeah exactly. SSJ2 Goku was about even with them and SSJ3 Goku gained an advantage when it appeared briefly, and then SSG started dominating them for the most part. But of course, it didn't one shot them and it was shown to be an inferior boost to the potara boost and it was stated that was the case before.

[ekrolo2]

The multiplier for SSGod is probably static in the manga where the absorption business never happened. At a low ball estimate, I'd put it at x40,000 Base there, about 15% higher than Super Vegetto at full power. Imperfect Blue is probably twice as strong as SSGod with Completed Blue ten times stronger that SSGod.

[PFM18]

The multiplier for SSGod is probably static in the manga where the absorption business never happened. At a low ball estimate, I'd put it at x40,000 Base there, about 15% higher than Super Vegetto at full power. Imperfect Blue is probably twice as strong as SSGod with Completed Blue ten times stronger that SSGod.

I agree with everything you said here

[RecolorSaiyan]

How much stronger do you think the base saiyans in the MANGA are compared to their Buu Arc selves?

[ekrolo2]

How much stronger do you think the base saiyans in the MANGA are compared to their Buu Arc selves?

They're apparently still weaker than Piccolo who's last relevant feat from the original run was being able to stand up to a Cell Jr (not as good as Vegeta or Trunks though). When Goku fought Trunks in SS2, he still used SS2 Gohan as a viable measuring stick of power then so yeah, they're definitely stronger than Namek Freeza in all his incarnations, probably close to 18 in power. Thanks to small gains causing massive boosts once you apply multipliers to them, you don't need to give Base Saiyan's absurd training gains.

[RandomGuy96]

Well, we don't even know for certain that Gohan has surpassed SSB at all.

Yes we do. Vados says that Kefla is possibly the strongest one in the ToP after seeing CSSB Vegeta and Toppo go at it and seeing suppressed Jiren no-sell everything. Gohan matches her.

Given the contradictory scaling of the manga, it isn't clear because it is stated by Kururin that Gohan<Goku,

Krillin can't sense god ki, who cares what he says.

The problem here is that you are arbitrarily deciding how much of a boost is actually possible and using that to discredit what is actually shown.

It's not arbitrary at all. Toei fans love to intentionally cloud the issue and deny this, but someone getting hundreds, thousands, or even millions of times stronger from just "training" in a year or less has literally never happened in Dragon Ball before this new material. Whenever there were above-average training gains, a reason was always offered, and even when they did happen, they were nowhere near this severe. Not once.

Well "it" wasn't in the anime and the manga because anime Gohan was close to, but decidedly below SSB and in the manga given that he beat Kefla should be far above SSB.

He's around that level either way.

Well, no it isn't.

Well, yes it is.

His "old power" is treated as the Ultimate form itself.

His old power is not treated as any "form", but rather "the power he used against Buu." You're making stuff up again. This is explicitly what he gets back in the lead-up to the ToP. And almost immediately after he gets it, he's strong enough to push Goku past SS3 and last a bit against SSB.

Additionally, he trains further from the time when this "old power" was mentioned

For about a week. He'd be lucky if he even came close to reversing what the anime portrayed as an incredibly severe decay independent of his of that "form" (like being unable to handle Super Saiyan for more than a bit), which I'll remind you again, was never a form.

I tend to ignore the SS thing potentially being above less than 10% of Blue since Whis later says Goku only ever got stronger than Hit when he used SSGod and Beerus needs Whis to explain it to him, meaning he doesn't know what he's talking about in this instance. Still, there is a pretty sizable amount of evidence which you've pointed that implies SSGod is probably closer to a hypothetical SS4 multiplier (around 40,000-ish which would be enough to put him above a full power Super Vegetto and every Majin Boo form we see).

SS Goku still being weaker than Hit doesn't dismiss the possibility that he's stronger than 1-10% SSB Vegeta.

I don't think manga SSG Goku is stronger than Super Vegetto. He's quite blatantly shown to be weaker than base Vegetto.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How much stronger do you think the base saiyans in the MANGA are compared to their Buu Arc selves?

SSJ Goku is implied to be almost as strong as <10% SSJB Vegeta. and given how godly forms are >>> Z, Goku's base form is probably somewhere on the Boo Arc top tiers via scaling. Lowest i'd put him is around Post Rosat SSJ Gotenks.

Krillin can't sense god ki, who cares what he says.

To play devil's advocate, he can still see Goku's movements and gauge his power from that.

If you're gonna say "who cares what he says" because he can't sense ki, you're gonna ignore half of the power statements in Z since they were made either by beings who can't sense (e.g. Freeza, Ginyu) or directed at beings who can't me sensed (Androids), and almost all of the statements Pre Z.

I don't think manga SSG Goku is stronger than Super Vegetto. He's quite blatantly shown to be weaker than base Vegetto.

When?? Goku literally said it's like a whole new word opened for him when he went SSJG… This clearly implies SSJG >>> Fusion.

[Marlowe89]

In the case of characters holding back, it is a common trope and you shouldn't expect it to be explicitly stated every single time it happens. Goku vs Kururin is a good example of this.

I'm going to (probably temporarily) take you off my ignore list to address this post, since I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're at least trying to argue in good faith:

Goku vs. Krillin is not a good example of this. 18 and Gohan both made it clear that there was a vast difference in power between them during the match.

Power suppression is a trope when there's a reason for it to happen, and it's generally always specified to illustrate the context behind the scene. Assuming "Character X was massively holding back" every time there's an inconsistency in the anime isn't productive precisely because it ignores context, takes a preconceived conclusion and then works backwards to make the evidence arbitrarily fit around that conclusion instead of working forward from it.

[RandomGuy96]

To play devil's advocate, he can still see Goku's movements and gauge his power from that.

If he can see Goku move, then clearly Goku is weak.

If you're gonna say "who cares what he says" because he can't sense ki, you're gonna ignore half of the power statements in Z since they were made either by beings who can't sense (e.g. Freeza, Ginyu) or directed at beings who can't me sensed (Androids), and almost all of the statements Pre Z.

These were based on direct combat performance, Krillin has no grounds of comparison.

When??

Base Vegetto sliced Fused Zamasu in half with a ki blast. The same Fused Zamasu that imperfect SSB Goku and Vegeta were helpless against.

inb4 "he was always off guard, even while directly charging at his enemies and preparing an attack."

Goku literally said it's like a whole new word opened for him when he went SSJG… This clearly implies SSJG >>> Fusion.

Alternatively he's talking about the general feel of god ki, or the thought of getting this strong on his own.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

With regards to SSG and Vegito, I think what's tripping people up about why he and similar Potara Fusions are superior to SSG now is the assumption that Goku, Vegeta, etc., are anywhere close to the level they used to be at during the Buu Arc in the original series, as well as the assumption that the boost from this previous level still holds true in DBS-current.

I believe this to be an erroneous assumption.

My belief is that, back when SSG was first tapped into via the ritual, it did indeed become superior to the boost that Potara Fusion gave. Afterwards, though? Goku and Vegeta, as well as others at similar levels of power, have gotten unfathomably stronger and gained greater insight into the manipulation of God Ki and other high powers. In essence, they "closed the gap", so to speak; this basically means that SSG doesn't give as large of a proportional boost anymore compared to when the ritual was first performed, but Goku and Vegeta have gotten strong and skilled enough with their Ki amount/manipulation that SSG's current power level is similar to or above what it once was.


TL;DR
=====
Vegito back before Beerus's arrival wasn't actually stronger than SSG, it's just that Goku and Vegeta have gotten strong enough to get to the point where base Potara Fusions can overtake SSG's boost AND SSG's boost from base isn't as proportionally high as it was when the ritual happened.

This is my belief on the matter, anyways.

[RandomGuy96]

My assumption is similar, basically that Goku got Toei-boosted in base right before the first ritual and is nowhere near that strong any time after.

[PFM18]

Yes we do. Vados says that Kefla is possibly the strongest one in the ToP after seeing CSSB Vegeta and Toppo go at it and seeing suppressed Jiren no-sell everything. Gohan matches her.

Well, exactly. logically Kefla SHOULD be stronger than CSSB Goku for those reasons among others, and therefore Gohan also is stronger than CSSB Goku, but Toyotaro apparently had something else in mind. We have an explicit statement from Krillin who says that Goku>Gohan. Regardless of how you want to dismiss/waive this statement, it is still an explicit statement that indicates authorial intent and would not otherwise exist if this weren't the implication the audience is supposed to be receiving from the story. Why would this line exist if it was intended to be completely ignored? That makes no sense.

Therefore, we don't know for certain that Gohan has surpassed his father's max power at this point in the manga.

It's not arbitrary at all. Toei fans love to intentionally cloud the issue and deny this, but someone getting hundreds, thousands, or even millions of times stronger from just "training" in a year or less has literally never happened in Dragon Ball before this new material. Whenever there were above-average training gains, a reason was always offered, and even when they did happen, they were nowhere near this severe. Not once.

It's completely arbitrary. You are going by your own preconceived notions of how much of a boost characters can actually become. There's no real definitive statements about how much of a power boost characters receive, so it all boils down to speculation that can't be logically stated with any level of certainty. Even if we say that this would be the largest power boost in history,(It Isn't. See Freeza,Vegeta) then it makes no sense to invalidate this possible power boost based on those grounds alone. If anybody were to gain a large power boost it would be Gohan with his godly potential, and for us to conclude that he didn't have that large of a boost we would have to invalidate everything else that we are told in the story that tells us that the God transformations are on a whole other level.

He's around that level either way.

Well, no they aren't around the same level either way. If Gohan~Kefla in the manga then he's probably dramatically stronger than his father and Gohan is demonstrated to be clearly close to but still substantially weaker than his Father.(See his fight with Toppo and him being one shot by his dad before the tournament) Manga Gohan is ridiculously strong to the point where it makes absolutely no sense. Gohan in the anime is objectively far weaker than his manga counterpart.

His old power is not treated as any "form", but rather "the power he used against Buu."

The emphasis is clearly on the form itself. Gohan is powering up from SSJ2 and you see a flash and he goes Ultimate, This transition is very blatantly a transformation and establishing that Gohan has achieved this form again. The focus is this transformation sequence. The narrative around it is Gohan re-attaining this form and it has nothing to do with a specific level of power. Otherwise, it would be arbitrary and would mean he went from his Z level to SSB level in a day. This appears to be another of your misinterpretations of the anime.

You're making stuff up again

Lol, okay man whatever you say.

Alternatively he's talking about the general feel of god ki

That is clearly not the intention of the dialogue and you know it. It was establishing that Goku was on a completely different level than what he has ever experienced before including Vegetto

AND SSG's boost from base isn't as proportionally high as it was when the ritual happened.

This is exactly what is happening here. The multiplier has since clearly changed. Intuitively it makes sense considering he very clearly made the SSG level of power his own, but for him to gain the same power boost from the form after this sequence wouldn't make any sense and that is clearly what we see in the ToP arc.

I'm going to (probably temporarily) take you off my ignore list to address this post

Then put me back on. I wanted to discuss that particular point but generally speaking I am not interested in discussing things with people who conduct themselves the way you do.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're at least trying to argue in good faith

This is exactly the kind of passive aggressive, condescending remark that I mean.

[ZombieVito]

How much stronger do you think the base saiyans in the MANGA are compared to their Buu Arc selves?

Stronger than Shin so a lot.