Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If he can see Goku move, then clearly Goku is weak.

Not exactly, this rule was quickly forgotten as Z progressed. Everyone could watch Goku vs Cell without much trouble, for example.

These were based on direct combat performance, Krillin has no grounds of comparison.

Goku used PSSJB a few times in the Tournament. That's more than enough for Kuririn to have a good ground of comparison.

Base Vegetto sliced Fused Zamasu in half with a ki blast. The same Fused Zamasu that imperfect SSB Goku and Vegeta were helpless against.

inb4 "he was always off guard, even while directly charging at his enemies and preparing an attack."

Nah, i actually agree that Base Vegetto is >>> SSJB Goku... The issue here is that you're apparently assuming Z Vegetto = DBS Vegetto for some reason, despite literally everything implying otherwise.

Alternatively he's talking about the general feel of god ki, or the thought of getting this strong on his own.

Not sure how exactly Goku would treat the feeling of being a God as a bigger deal than his own power. Goku doesn't give a shit about deities and even declined the opportunity of being a god when Kami asked him.

As for Goku refering to achieving such power by himself... I find doubtful that that's what the statement implies. Here's the statement:


Goku says a whole new word has opened for him... It's a level of power beyond anything he ever experienced and expected, which should naturally include Fusion.

Not to mention SSJG blowing Vegetto out of the water is the natural progression. In every arc in Dragon Ball the last arc's highest power. SSJG being weaker than Vegetto is going backwards, even moreso if we're talking about base Vegetto. The man who's probably weaker than Super Boo.

How much stronger do you think the base saiyans in the MANGA are compared to their Buu Arc selves?

Stronger than Shin so a lot.

They were already stronger than Shin by leaps and bounds, so that doesn't mean much.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Well that "whole new world that opened up" seems to have very easy entry for lots of other fighters

[RandomGuy96]

Not exactly, this rule was quickly forgotten as Z progressed.

If the rule was "forgotten", then movements cease to be a sign of anyone's power.

Goku used PSSJB a few times in the Tournament. That's more than enough for Kuririn to have a good ground of comparison.

Krillin has never fought a CSSB and has nothing "sense-able" to compare it to.

Nah, i actually agree that Base Vegetto is >>> SSJB Goku... The issue here is that you're apparently assuming Z Vegetto = DBS Vegetto for some reason, despite literally everything implying otherwise.

It doesn't matter how much stronger Goku and Vegeta supposedly are in base, because the scene quite clearly shows that the difference between Base Goku and Base Vegetto is bigger than the difference between Base Goku and SSG Goku. This applies no matter how strong they are. If Goku had fused with Vegeta when Beerus showed up, he'd also be stronger than SSG in base.

Not sure how exactly Goku would treat the feeling of being a God as a bigger deal than his own power. Goku doesn't give a shit about deities and even declined the opportunity of being a god when Kami asked him.

I mean the feel of the ki itself, not any particular importance of it.

As for Goku refering to achieving such power by himself... I find doubtful that that's what the statement implies. Here's the statement:
Goku says a whole new word has opened for him... It's a level of power beyond anything he ever experienced and expected, which should naturally include Fusion.

A level of power beyond anything he expected to achieve on his own. He wouldn't have "experienced" anything as Vegetto, since Vegetto isn't Goku.

Not to mention SSJG blowing Vegetto out of the water is the natural progression. In every arc in Dragon Ball the last arc's highest power.

This has been quite clearly and intentionally subverted in Super, what with Beerus being stronger than everyone until Jiren, and (manga) Golden Freeza being stronger than Hit.

Well, exactly. logically Kefla SHOULD be stronger than CSSB Goku for those reasons among others, and therefore Gohan also is stronger than CSSB Goku, but Toyotaro apparently had something else in mind. We have an explicit statement from Krillin who says that Goku>Gohan.

Krillin can't sense god ki, who cares what he says.

Regardless of how you want to dismiss/waive this statement, it is still an explicit statement that indicates authorial intent

No evidence of this. Fan fiction.

It's completely arbitrary. You are going by your own preconceived notions of how much of a boost characters can actually become. There's no real definitive statements about how much of a power boost characters receive, so it all boils down to speculation that can't be logically stated with any level of certainty. Even if we say that this would be the largest power boost in history,(It Isn't. See Freeza,Vegeta) then it makes no sense to invalidate this possible power boost based on those grounds alone.

This is complete BS, by the way. If someone trains for years and gets say a x10 boost, and then train in the exact same for an hour and get a x1,000 boost, that's a clearly a contradiction, whether or not you want to admit it. And we do get fairly solid indications of their gains. They never come close to what your current fan fiction says they should be.

Well, no they aren't around the same level either way. If Gohan~Kefla in the manga then he's probably dramatically stronger than his father and Gohan is demonstrated to be clearly close to but still substantially weaker than his Father.(See his fight with Toppo and him being one shot by his dad before the tournament) Manga Gohan is ridiculously strong to the point where it makes absolutely no sense. Gohan in the anime is objectively far weaker than his manga counterpart.

There is functionally no difference in tiers between "somewhat below SSB" and "somewhat above SSB", particularly in the anime where SSB is a completely worthless jobber form that Goku can casually multiply by 20.

The emphasis is clearly on the form itself.

No it isn't. There is no "form." There never has been a "form."

Chapter: 496 (DBZ 302), P7.2-3
Context: after Gohan transforms into the ‘mightiest of warriors’
Goku: “It re-really is incredible…It’s super-duper…! Absolutely unbelievable…Your appearance has hardly changed…And you ain’t even a Super Saiyan…Yet you’ve been taken to su-such an extreme…”
Elder Kaioshin: “Hmph, transforming isn’t good. Super whatever-its-called is the wrong way [of doing things]…”

The narrative around it is Gohan re-attaining this form and it has nothing to do with a specific level of power.

I have no idea why you think you can get away with telling such a bald-faced lie. Piccolo outright says that the level of power he used against Buu is what they're trying to draw out. They outright state a level of power and never say anything about a form. Ever.

It's your fan fiction. Again. Are you immune to fact-based debate? Is there any point in even trying to discuss things with you if you'll ignore a statement as straightforward as this?

That is clearly not the intention of the dialogue and you know it.

More fanfiction.

[Marlowe89]

No it isn't. There is no "form." There never has been a "form."

Chapter: 496 (DBZ 302), P7.2-3
Context: after Gohan transforms into the ‘mightiest of warriors’
Goku: “It re-really is incredible…It’s super-duper…! Absolutely unbelievable…Your appearance has hardly changed…And you ain’t even a Super Saiyan…Yet you’ve been taken to su-such an extreme…”
Elder Kaioshin: “Hmph, transforming isn’t good. Super whatever-its-called is the wrong way [of doing things]…”

The anime is (unsurprisingly) what caused all the completely unneeded hubbub, since it's treating the Ultimate Gohan state as something it was never intended to be in the original manga.

This is exactly the kind of passive aggressive, condescending remark that I mean.

Assuming sincerity on your behalf is neither a passive-aggressive dig nor a condescending remark, but I'm not especially surprised that you'd try to interpret it that way. Thanks for letting me know right away that it was a misguided assumption, though.

Back on you go.

[PFM18]

No evidence of this. Fan fiction.

Alright, so a line of dialogue written by the other is not any indication of authorial intent? It is "fan fiction" to say that a line written by an author is supposed to mean something? I can't help but think you are a bit confused here. Krillin literally said that Gohan could surpass Goku and not that he had surpassed Goku, obviously indicating that he had not surpassed Goku. Toyotaro wrote this line of dialogue so obviously that is what he is trying to convey in his story.

Of course this is immediately contradicted by Gohan's feat a few moments later but this is simply an inconsistency/contradiction not some random comment that was meant to mean nothing like you seem to be implying. Therefore, it is uncertain whether Gohan is meant to be stronger than Goku is all I'm saying. Going purely from an In-Universe perspective, it appears the story is telling us that Gohan>>>>>Goku but that doesn't account for the poor storytelling by Toyotaro in which there's a statement that contradicts this.

This is complete BS, by the way. If someone trains for years and gets say a x10 boost, and then train in the exact same for an hour and get a x1,000 boost, that's a clearly a contradiction, whether or not you want to admit it. And we do get fairly solid indications of their gains. They never come close to what your current fan fiction says they should be.

Yes, obviously. It appears you completely missed my point.

We do generally have indications of what the boosts are when compared to each other, but your perception of these indications is ultimately your own personal perspective and therefore subjective. Hence, it should not override the abundance of evidence that we have that SSG is a massive boost over anything previously seen. You are essentially saying "the boost Gohan appears to have gotten does not coincide with my preconceived notions about possible power boosts, so I'm just gonna go ahead and invalidate all of the objective evidence that we have that the God forms are massively above anything that came previously." That's ridiculous. We have explicit statements about SSG Goku's power and you are going to disregard them because it doesn't fit with what you would expect of Gohan's gains based on your arbitrarily quantified limits associated with these boosts. If that isn't fan fiction then I don't know what is.

There is functionally no difference in tiers between "somewhat below SSB" and "somewhat above SSB", particularly in the anime where SSB is a completely worthless jobber form that Goku can casually multiply by 20.

Yes, but there is a functional difference between "squarely between SSG and SSB" and "dozens of times stronger than CSSB." How you have so much trouble understanding this is baffling to me.

Kale~CSSB Goku, and then Kale fused with Caulifla. Based on everything we have ever known about potara fusion, SSJ Kefla logically should be dozens of times stronger than Kale and Gohan was able to match her. But of course, Toyotaro does not concern himself with logic so we it is unclear whether this is the case because of the statement by Krillin.

No it isn't. There is no "form." There never has been a "form."

Chapter: 496 (DBZ 302), P7.2-3
Context: after Gohan transforms into the ‘mightiest of warriors’
Goku: “It re-really is incredible…It’s super-duper…! Absolutely unbelievable…Your appearance has hardly changed…And you ain’t even a Super Saiyan…Yet you’ve been taken to su-such an extreme…”
Elder Kaioshin: “Hmph, transforming isn’t good. Super whatever-its-called is the wrong way [of doing things]…”

There was a transformation sequence in which Gohan transformed into Ultimate. Therefore, it is a form. This transformation sequence never would have been necessary but Gohan lost his Ultimate power so it has become necessary. I don't see how this is so confusing.

I have no idea why you think you can get away with telling such a bald-faced lie. Piccolo outright says that the level of power he used against Buu is what they're trying to draw out. They outright state a level of power and never say anything about a form. Ever.

He doesn't actually use the verbatim "the level of power he used against Buu" that is a "bold faced lie" yourself. He just says the "power you used against Buu." This could easily be similar to the phrasing used to describe the form of ASSJ when it was described as "a power beyond SSJ" or something similar.

Look, It could be interpreted either way. It just makes more sense to me to conclude that Piccolo was referring to the form because the alternative is that Gohan went from his Z level of power to being close to current SSB in literally a day. The former makes far more sense to me than the latter and that is my interpretation.

It's your fan fiction. Again. Are you immune to fact-based debate? Is there any point in even trying to discuss things with you if you'll ignore a statement as straightforward as this?

This is hilarious considering you ignored an explicit statement by Krillin.

[TheOne]

I’m essentially going based off of the Tarble special. When stated they were as strong as Frieza, Goku and Vegeta thought this could be a good challenge for them. Once theyfused, it became a different story. But I think you could easily put them on Freeza's level. Not only that, they gave 18 some trouble in the tournament. We all know exactly how much stronger 18 was compared to Frieza on Namek. It’s not the best way to gauge, but there’s no reason to believe they’d lose to Frieza in a straight up power fight back then.

That aside, Goten and Trunks trained seriously for 6 weeks in the hyperbolic time chamber. I’d be willing to believe they made some serious gains there seeing as how they’re hybrids.

I'm pretty sure Abo and Cado were only as strong as first form Frieza, as that is all Tarble should know, and in the manga version first form Frieza is shown when he references Frieza earlier. And in the manga base Goten and Trunks got dominated by 18 while she was holding back. It only lasted a few pages and they were almost instantly forced to go ssj while 18 didn't even break a sweat. Plus the Frieza>base Goku statement by Beerus, I can't justify putting base Goten and Trunks even close to full power Frieza. Their ssj form is another story, but their base is fodder.

The way I see it with regards to the base Saiyans prior to DBS's events, they were close enough to Freeza's full-power that they could at least go a few rounds if he wasn't fully-powered up. But once he hits 120 million and stops messing around? Then they stand no chance.

For example, say Goku was around 60-80 million before Beerus showed up? He'd be able to easily fight Freeza besides Freeza's full-power; Goten and Trunks could probably do the same if Freeza were holding back a bit more.

I agree with this.

If Tagoma was "as strong as gohan at his peak " which means Ultimate Gohan who was much stronger than Super Buu who was >> Fat Buu, then why exactly would Fat Buu have any chance vs Freeza especially since 1st form Freeza > Tagoma ?

They must have meant peak base Gohan, as if Tagoma was strong as Gohans beak, how the heck would he get dominated by a weaker rusty version of Gohan? Tagoma<rusty ssj Gohan is a fact. Not sure why people keep saying that statement puts him at ultimate Gohan level when by feats he clearly isn't.

18 did break a sweat. It was clear once they went ssj they were going to be a problem for her, which is why she had to throw them off guard and go for the kill. There’s a reason she Barely saw their blast when Trunks shot it. They even had to remind themselves not to make it too strong.

[dragon boss z]

18 did break a sweat.

Not while they were in base.

It was clear once they went ssj they were going to be a problem for her, which is why she had to throw them off guard and go for the kill. There’s a reason she Barely saw their blast when Trunks shot it. They even had to remind themselves not to make it too strong.

There are a lot of factors here.
1. their strength took her off guard and most people would be afraid of little kids with deadly power.
2. it's a tournament so nobody is going for the kill so of course they wouldn't fire off full power blasts at her just like she wasn't doing to them.
3. she was probably suppressed (it was confirmed androids could suppress themselves as 17 did against future Gohan), so it would be like saying Frieza was nowhere near ssj Goku because he couldn't track him, but once he went to 100% he could.

But overall it is possible as super saiyans they can rival or even surpass 18, but as base? No, they get stomped.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If the rule was "forgotten", then movements cease to be a sign of anyone's power.

Not really. Vegeta could track #19's movements and use them to gauge his power, despite #19 being far above him.

Krillin has never fought a CSSB and has nothing "sense-able" to compare it to.

Vegeta didn't need to fight #19 to get a good grasp on him. Ginyu didn't fought Goku before estimating his power was 60k. Saying Kuririn's opinion is irrelevant is a huge cop out, in the early days of Dragon Ball power could be gauged accurately just fine even though nobody could sense Ki.

It doesn't matter how much stronger Goku and Vegeta supposedly are in base, because the scene quite clearly shows that the difference between Base Goku and Base Vegetto is bigger than the difference between Base Goku and SSG Goku. This applies no matter how strong they are. If Goku had fused with Vegeta when Beerus showed up, he'd also be stronger than SSG in base.

The problem here is that you're acting like the ritual multiplier and the "stacked" multiplier are the same thing, but they aren't. First time Goku transformed he jumped several tiers of power, from below Pre Rosat Gotenks to far above even Gohan. After that the gap between his old and God forms diminished for some reason, so much that SSJB is only moderately above 10x SSJ according to the U6 Tournament.

In a nutshell, the fusion boost is bigger than the "Stacked" SSJG multiplier, but pales in comparison to the ritual multiplier, as it's implied not even fusion could stop Beerus.

I mean the feel of the ki itself, not any particular importance of it.

Still, Goku being excited by how his Ki feels when what matters for him is power is quite a sctetch, even moreso if he's still weaker than even Gohan-Boo.

A level of power beyond anything he expected to achieve on his own. He wouldn't have "experienced" anything as Vegetto, since Vegetto isn't Goku.

It's implied the fusers can sort of "feel" the fusion's power though. Goten and Trunks were pretty excited after they finished training as Gotenks and Trunks could even gauge how strong Gotenks was compared to Boo.

This has been quite clearly and intentionally subverted in Super, what with Beerus being stronger than everyone until Jiren, and (manga) Golden Freeza being stronger than Hit.

One could also argue that Hit > Golden Freeza based on Goku and Vegeta training on Rosat before the Tournament, i guess. And unlike Beerus, Pre God powers were never given any special focus throughout the story. Those guys were complete fodder

[ZombieVito]

They were already stronger than Shin by leaps and bounds, so that doesn't mean much.

Huh? They were not stronger in base in the Boo arc.

[Green]

In a nutshell, the fusion boost is bigger than the "Stacked" SSJG multiplier, but pales in comparison to the ritual multiplier, as it's implied not even fusion could stop Beerus.

While I don't think any form of Vegetto is comparable to God/Blue (except his own godly transformations ofc), this explanation could make sense (iirc Marlowe89 or someone else is taking this stance too), but I also have one of my own I'd like to expose.

We don't really know how fusion works, right? There's no official formula or anything like that, but every fusion we've seen is pretty damn strong.

Gotenks >> SS Trunks & Goten
Gokhan > Ultimate Gohan
Vegetto >> SS3 Goku
Kefla >>> SS2 Kale

Talking about Saiyans, fusion has always been stronger than each fusee at their strongest. We've always assumed Base Vegetto was Base Goku multiplied by whatever number you come up with, but what if fusion is just stronger than you at your best? That would explain why Kefla in the anime is so strong and why Vegetto blew off half of Merged Zamasu. Back in BOG, he would have been weaker than SSG but now that Blue is in the mix that's not the case anymore.

[Sora Saiyan]

It doesn't matter how much stronger Goku and Vegeta supposedly are in base, because the scene quite clearly shows that the difference between Base Goku and Base Vegetto is bigger than the difference between Base Goku and SSG Goku. This applies no matter how strong they are. If Goku had fused with Vegeta when Beerus showed up, he'd also be stronger than SSG in base.

The problem here is that you're acting like the ritual multiplier and the "stacked" multiplier are the same thing, but they aren't. First time Goku transformed he jumped several tiers of power, from below Pre Rosat Gotenks to far above even Gohan. After that the gap between his old and God forms diminished for some reason, so much that SSJB is only moderately above 10x SSJ according to the U6 Tournament.

In a nutshell, the fusion boost is bigger than the "Stacked" SSJG multiplier, but pales in comparison to the ritual multiplier, as it's implied not even fusion could stop Beerus.

For me it appears that the Potara fusion works by having the two users strongest forms combined and then multiplied a little. We can’t really just use the mangas version of the BoG arc as it’s super cut down, so using the two full versions (movie, and anime) we know that SSJG is handily above Vegetto.
So Vegetto vs Buuhan had shown that Vegetto could’ve very well needed SSJ to win, which works well with Vegetto being SSJ3 + SSJ2 x a bit. Manga Base Vegetto is then probably SSJB + SSJB x a bit. Anime base Kefla is above SSJG, so BSSJ Kale + Caulifla x a bit is once again feasible. I can’t use the manga version of Kefla as that Kefla would’ve been weak as shit compared to her at FP considering she was made up with an incapacitated Kale + a weakened Caulifla, and as we saw in the manga Vegetto needed to eat a senzu upon fusing.

Btw I put X a bit because I don’t have anything which I determine a definitive number.

[PFM18]

In a nutshell, the fusion boost is bigger than the "Stacked" SSJG multiplier, but pales in comparison to the ritual multiplier, as it's implied not even fusion could stop Beerus.

Yes, exactly. The boost provided by the ritual itself is massively higher than the boost provided from after Goku has re-attained the form through training with Whis. This both intuitively makes sense and is reinforced in the ToP

But i'm not sure why you are referring to this in the manga. The concept of the "stacked" SSG only exists because Goku retained the level of power of SSG in the anime and he was still able to use it by training with Whis. Hence, he had "stacked" the SSG power in a sense. This premise of Goku experiencing the power and "making it his own" doesn't exist in the manga so there's no real reason why the SSG multiplier should have changed in relation to potara.

Either potara fusion automatically makes the base form of the fusion always stronger than the highest form available for the fusees, or this is just another inconsistency on Toyotaro's part. There's a precedence for this idea that Base fusion>highest form of fusee because Base Vegetto>SSJ3 Goku in the Buu arc, but this would get completely insane for the potara fusion multiplier if it were to be that Base fusion>SSB of fusee because now potara fusion becomes a millions or even billions of times increase to their base form.

[ekrolo2]

In a nutshell, the fusion boost is bigger than the "Stacked" SSJG multiplier, but pales in comparison to the ritual multiplier, as it's implied not even fusion could stop Beerus.

Yes, exactly. The boost provided by the ritual itself is massively higher than the boost provided from after Goku has re-attained the form through training with Whis. This both intuitively makes sense and is reinforced in the ToP

But i'm not sure why you are referring to this in the manga. The concept of the "stacked" SSG only exists because Goku retained the level of power of SSG in the anime and he was still able to use it by training with Whis. Hence, he had "stacked" the SSG power in a sense. This premise of Goku experiencing the power and "making it his own" doesn't exist in the manga so there's no real reason why the SSG multiplier should have changed in relation to potara.

Either potara fusion automatically makes the base form of the fusion always stronger than the highest form available for the fusees, or this is just another inconsistency on Toyotaro's part. There's a precedence for this idea that Base fusion>highest form of fusee because Base Vegetto>SSJ3 Goku in the Buu arc, but this would get completely insane for the potara fusion multiplier if it were to be that Base fusion>SSB of fusee because now potara fusion becomes a millions or even billions of times increase to their base form.

Another thing to remember is that the fusion line isn't in the manga. Food for thought.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Base Potara > Strongest Fusee seems to make sense

That’s the only way to explain base kefla > ssg or base vegetto > SSB Goku in the manga.

Like Vados said it’s basical ((a+b)*tens)

[Marlowe89]

(iirc Marlowe89 or someone else is taking this stance too)

My stance is the original manga's stance -- depending on the fusees, Potara fusion isn't always this stupidly massive boost people make it out to be. Goku said that fusing with Mr. Satan would either make him go from "1000" to "1001" or make him even weaker than he already is, which isn't something Toriyama would write if he wasn't implicitly trying to convey that idea to his readers. Elder Kai also discouraged Goku from fusing while Super Saiyan.

It would suffice to explain why Kefla isn't that much stronger than Kale in the manga, especially since Kale wasn't at peak strength and was still in Super Saiyan form when fused. Vados only attributed Kefla's power to Kale's, and since Kale isn't stronger than a serious Golden Freeza, it's more than possible for Gohan to be weaker than Super Saiyan Blue Goku but still as strong as Kefla. Nothing outright contradicts the idea that he's equal in power to his anime counterpart either.

Essentially, Kefla (being an imperfect fusion in the manga) was nerfed from the anime while everyone else remained the same.

[ekrolo2]

Base Potara > Strongest Fusee seems to make sense

That’s the only way to explain base kefla > ssg or base vegetto > SSB Goku in the manga.

Like Vados said it’s basical ((a+b)*tens)

Vados statement makes no real sense for anything besides the fusion dance. Base Vegetto in the Boo arc is over 400 times stronger than Goku or Vegeta as he is described as being stronger than a Super Saiyan 3. This by default makes whatever she says on the matter null and void, even more so when you start crunching the numbers for Kefla.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Base Potara > Strongest Fusee seems to make sense

That’s the only way to explain base kefla > ssg or base vegetto > SSB Goku in the manga.

Like Vados said it’s basical ((a+b)*tens)

Vados statement makes no real sense for anything besides the fusion dance. Base Vegetto in the Boo arc is over 400 times stronger than Goku or Vegeta as he is described as being stronger than a Super Saiyan 3. This by default makes whatever she says on the matter null and void, even more so when you start crunching the numbers for Kefla.

BUU ARC BASE Vegetto is > ssj3 Goku from Buu Arc which as I said in my post, is how it might work.

Base fusion > strongest fusee

Ssj2 kale was relative to SSG Goku. Weaker but not by much

So if base kefla > ssj2 kale then it makes sense for her to be above SSG Goku

In the manga version of Goku Black arc, BASE Vegetto blew off half of M Zamasu body and this was before taking ma senzu. M Zamasu even thought that was a new form and considered him more of a challenge than Goku and Vegeta vs him in their blue form

[RecolorSaiyan]

(iirc Marlowe89 or someone else is taking this stance too)

My stance is the original manga's stance -- depending on the fusees, Potara fusion isn't always this stupidly massive boost people make it out to be. Goku said that fusing with Mr. Satan would either make him go from "1000" to "1001" or make him even weaker than he already is, which isn't something Toriyama would write if he wasn't implicitly trying to convey that idea to his readers. Elder Kai also discouraged Goku from fusing while Super Saiyan.

It would suffice to explain why Kefla isn't that much stronger than Kale in the manga, especially since Kale wasn't at peak strength and was still in Super Saiyan form when fused. Vados only attributed Kefla's power to Kale's, and since Kale isn't stronger than a serious Golden Freeza, it's more than possible for Gohan to be weaker than Super Saiyan Blue Goku but still as strong as Kefla. Nothing outright contradicts the idea that he's equal in power to his anime counterpart either.

Essentially, Kefla (being an imperfect fusion in the manga) was nerfed from the anime while everyone else remained the same.

Why do you believe so?

Freeza was taking a ton of damage and Kale even broke through CSSB Goku's defenses and this was before she went fully "berserk"

[ekrolo2]

Base Potara > Strongest Fusee seems to make sense

That’s the only way to explain base kefla > ssg or base vegetto > SSB Goku in the manga.

Like Vados said it’s basical ((a+b)*tens)

Vados statement makes no real sense for anything besides the fusion dance. Base Vegetto in the Boo arc is over 400 times stronger than Goku or Vegeta as he is described as being stronger than a Super Saiyan 3. This by default makes whatever she says on the matter null and void, even more so when you start crunching the numbers for Kefla.

BUU ARC BASE Vegetto is > ssj3 Goku from Buu Arc which as I said in my post, is how it might work.

Base fusion > strongest fusee

Ssj2 kale was relative to SSG Goku. Weaker but not by much

So if base kefla > ssj2 kale then it makes sense for her to be above SSG Goku

In the manga version of Goku Black arc, BASE Vegetto blew off half of M Zamasu body and this was before taking ma senzu. M Zamasu even thought that was a new form and considered him more of a challenge than Goku and Vegeta vs him in their blue form

Base Kefla being above SSGod Goku doesn't make any sense for two reasons 1) her components are not the same quality as Vegetto (not as skilled, no rivalry to speak of) and the anime already said SSGod is above a non God form using fusion.

Now, Kale's SS form can give wiggle room to bridge the gap, however this doesn't explain Base Kefla at all. Hell, I don't even know why Base Kefla is even seen as both her fusees were transformed when they fused.

[Marlowe89]

Why do you believe so?

Because Freeza said so himself. He also had no trouble dealing with the Saiyans until Kale's power spiked out of nowhere and caught him by surprise. Likewise, Goku easily blocked her repeated strikes until she was able to get a single punch in through his defenses (which didn't actually land thanks to Freeza's intervention).

Vegeta was then knocked away by her strength in the next chapter, but she only caught him off-guard and her attack inflicted no damage; this is indeed confirmed when he states that Kale's power merely relies on catching people off-guard. That's not even counting her declining strength. Vegeta was able to recognize her form's weaknesses and then immediately disregarded her as a threat.