Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RecolorSaiyan]

Vados statement makes no real sense for anything besides the fusion dance. Base Vegetto in the Boo arc is over 400 times stronger than Goku or Vegeta as he is described as being stronger than a Super Saiyan 3. This by default makes whatever she says on the matter null and void, even more so when you start crunching the numbers for Kefla.

BUU ARC BASE Vegetto is > ssj3 Goku from Buu Arc which as I said in my post, is how it might work.

Base fusion > strongest fusee

Ssj2 kale was relative to SSG Goku. Weaker but not by much

So if base kefla > ssj2 kale then it makes sense for her to be above SSG Goku

In the manga version of Goku Black arc, BASE Vegetto blew off half of M Zamasu body and this was before taking ma senzu. M Zamasu even thought that was a new form and considered him more of a challenge than Goku and Vegeta vs him in their blue form

Base Kefla being above SSGod Goku doesn't make any sense for two reasons 1) her components are not the same quality as Vegetto (not as skilled, no rivalry to speak of) and the anime already said SSGod is above a non God form using fusion.

Now, Kale's SS form can give wiggle room to bridge the gap, however this doesn't explain Base Kefla at all. Hell, I don't even know why Base Kefla is even seen as both her fusees were transformed when they fused.

This was said by goku in BoG but as I mentioned Kale on her own was nearly as powerful as SSG Goku.

Lets say SSG Goku = 100
SSJ2 Kale = 85-90

Kale's power alone is damn near ssg level whereas BoG Goku wasn't in the same universe as SSG.

Also with regards God forms > non god forms , even the manga showcase BASE Vegetto to be above regular ssb goku and vegeta

[ekrolo2]

BUU ARC BASE Vegetto is > ssj3 Goku from Buu Arc which as I said in my post, is how it might work.

Base fusion > strongest fusee

Ssj2 kale was relative to SSG Goku. Weaker but not by much

So if base kefla > ssj2 kale then it makes sense for her to be above SSG Goku

In the manga version of Goku Black arc, BASE Vegetto blew off half of M Zamasu body and this was before taking ma senzu. M Zamasu even thought that was a new form and considered him more of a challenge than Goku and Vegeta vs him in their blue form

Base Kefla being above SSGod Goku doesn't make any sense for two reasons 1) her components are not the same quality as Vegetto (not as skilled, no rivalry to speak of) and the anime already said SSGod is above a non God form using fusion.

Now, Kale's SS form can give wiggle room to bridge the gap, however this doesn't explain Base Kefla at all. Hell, I don't even know why Base Kefla is even seen as both her fusees were transformed when they fused.

This was said by goku in BoG but as I mentioned Kale on her own was nearly as powerful as SSG Goku.

Lets say SSG Goku = 100
SSJ2 Kale = 85-90

Kale's power alone is damn near ssg level whereas BoG Goku wasn't in the same universe as SSG.

Also with regards God forms > non god forms , even the manga showcase BASE Vegetto to be above regular ssb goku and vegeta

Kale's SS2 power is close to God, that has no bearing on her Base power which is what Base Kefla is based around. Nevermind my previous point that Kefla shouldn't even be in Base since she was made by two transformed people and Old Kaioshin said that's what you'd turn out as when you combined.

Base Vegetto blew a Zamasu who was about to kill beaten to shit Base Goku and Vegeta. I doubt he was going all out for that.

[Bullza]

Going by Kai, which Super follows on from, Base Vegito should be far above Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

So it's not surprising that Base Kefla would be even stronger than Legendary Super Saiyan Kale.

Also because the female pair should be drastically stronger than Goku and Vegeta back in the Buu Saga then Base Kefla should be far stronger than Base Vegito.

But why Super Saiyan God is assumingly stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Vegito but weaker than Base Kefla I can't really explain unless Super Saiyan God's power never changed from the Battle of Gods saga.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Base Kefla being above SSGod Goku doesn't make any sense for two reasons 1) her components are not the same quality as Vegetto (not as skilled, no rivalry to speak of) and the anime already said SSGod is above a non God form using fusion.

Now, Kale's SS form can give wiggle room to bridge the gap, however this doesn't explain Base Kefla at all. Hell, I don't even know why Base Kefla is even seen as both her fusees were transformed when they fused.

This was said by goku in BoG but as I mentioned Kale on her own was nearly as powerful as SSG Goku.

Lets say SSG Goku = 100
SSJ2 Kale = 85-90

Kale's power alone is damn near ssg level whereas BoG Goku wasn't in the same universe as SSG.

Also with regards God forms > non god forms , even the manga showcase BASE Vegetto to be above regular ssb goku and vegeta

Kale's SS2 power is close to God, that has no bearing on her Base power which is what Base Kefla is based around. Nevermind my previous point that Kefla shouldn't even be in Base since she was made by two transformed people and Old Kaioshin said that's what you'd turn out as when you combined.

Base Vegetto blew a Zamasu who was about to kill beaten to shit Base Goku and Vegeta. I doubt he was going all out for that.

I agree that kefla shouldn't have come out in base but kale's power does play a part since there is evidence to suggest that a base fusion > strongest fusee

So base kefla > ssj2 kale then it makes sense for base kefla to be above ssg goku

Also M Zamasu was totally destroying god/blue vegeta and goku and vegetto casually blew off half of his body. M Zamasu even thought Base Vegetto was a new transformation and said something along the lines of "1 hour will be enough to defeat you" whereas he was toying with goku and vegeta prior

[ekrolo2]

This was said by goku in BoG but as I mentioned Kale on her own was nearly as powerful as SSG Goku.

Lets say SSG Goku = 100
SSJ2 Kale = 85-90

Kale's power alone is damn near ssg level whereas BoG Goku wasn't in the same universe as SSG.

Also with regards God forms > non god forms , even the manga showcase BASE Vegetto to be above regular ssb goku and vegeta

Kale's SS2 power is close to God, that has no bearing on her Base power which is what Base Kefla is based around. Nevermind my previous point that Kefla shouldn't even be in Base since she was made by two transformed people and Old Kaioshin said that's what you'd turn out as when you combined.

Base Vegetto blew a Zamasu who was about to kill beaten to shit Base Goku and Vegeta. I doubt he was going all out for that.

I agree that kefla shouldn't have come out in base but kale's power does play a part since there is evidence to suggest that a base fusion > strongest fusee

So base kefla > ssj2 kale then it makes sense for base kefla to be above ssg goku

Also M Zamasu was totally destroying god/blue vegeta and goku and vegetto casually blew off half of his body. M Zamasu even thought Base Vegetto was a new transformation and said something along the lines of "1 hour will be enough to defeat you" whereas he was toying with goku and vegeta prior

Base fusion being stronger than a fusee doesn't mean automatically mean they're stronger than the fusee most powerful form, do you think Base Vegetto from the Boo arc would be above a hypothetical SS4 Goku just because Goku happens to have it?

Base Kefla is just Toei wank the same way Base Vegetto not getting shit stomped by Boohan was too.

You're ignoring the context of when and how Base Vegetto appears in. MZ has just finished beating down Goku to Base and is preparing to kill him when a sudden blast takes him by surprise. That's when Vegetto shows up in, when MZ recollect himself, he says it doesn't matter because hell just kill Vegetto anyway while he's in Base form. Vegetto says screw that, eats a senzu to power himself up to proper strength and goes Blue.

Yeah, I don't see what exactly is supposed to show here that Vegetto is above SS Blue Goku or Vegeta.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Going by Kai, which Super follows on from, Base Vegito should be far above Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

So it's not surprising that Base Kefla would be even stronger than Legendary Super Saiyan Kale.

Also because the female pair should be drastically stronger than Goku and Vegeta back in the Buu Saga then Base Kefla should be far stronger than Base Vegito.

But why Super Saiyan God is assumingly stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Vegito but weaker than Base Kefla I can't really explain unless Super Saiyan God's power never changed from the Battle of Gods saga.

Well, that's my personal logic.

Goku and Vegeta, as well as other similar level Saiyans, have "closed the gap" in a manner of speaking. SSG retains a similar level of power, maybe a bit stronger than before, but Goku and Vegeta have grown immensely since then through godly training and thus SSG doesn't give the same kind of proportional boost as it did before. If it did, Goku and Vegeta would be at minimum hundreds of times stronger in SSG than Goku was when he fought Beerus.

Vegito, and in a similar vein Kefla, getting hundreds of times stronger and matching/surpassing SSG due to the fusees being hundreds of times stronger than Vegito's fusees' old levels makes plenty of sense.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Kale's SS2 power is close to God, that has no bearing on her Base power which is what Base Kefla is based around. Nevermind my previous point that Kefla shouldn't even be in Base since she was made by two transformed people and Old Kaioshin said that's what you'd turn out as when you combined.

Base Vegetto blew a Zamasu who was about to kill beaten to shit Base Goku and Vegeta. I doubt he was going all out for that.

I agree that kefla shouldn't have come out in base but kale's power does play a part since there is evidence to suggest that a base fusion > strongest fusee

So base kefla > ssj2 kale then it makes sense for base kefla to be above ssg goku

Also M Zamasu was totally destroying god/blue vegeta and goku and vegetto casually blew off half of his body. M Zamasu even thought Base Vegetto was a new transformation and said something along the lines of "1 hour will be enough to defeat you" whereas he was toying with goku and vegeta prior

Base fusion being stronger than a fusee doesn't mean automatically mean they're stronger than the fusee most powerful form, do you think Base Vegetto from the Boo arc would be above a hypothetical SS4 Goku just because Goku happens to have it?

Base Kefla is just Toei wank the same way Base Vegetto not getting shit stomped by Boohan was too.

You're ignoring the context of when and how Base Vegetto appears in. MZ has just finished beating down Goku to Base and is preparing to kill him when a sudden blast takes him by surprise. That's when Vegetto shows up in, when MZ recollect himself, he says it doesn't matter because hell just kill Vegetto anyway while he's in Base form. Vegetto says screw that, eats a senzu to power himself up to proper strength and goes Blue.

Yeah, I don't see what exactly is supposed to show here that Vegetto is above SS Blue Goku or Vegeta.

1. Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku (His max power at the time) so yes if goku had ssj4 in the buu arc, base vegetto would be even stronger than ssj4 goku. That is what i believe and evidence to support that exists
2. SSB Goku caught M Zamasu off guard and only blew a hole in him that M Zamasu easily laughed off, Base Vegetto caught him off guard and completely wrecked half his body. Plus as I said M Zamasu considered Base vegetto a new form and he had been dicking on ssb goku and vegeta previously.
3. When it comes to Super, we can't just waive stuff away as Toei wank because there is no source manga and the anime events can't just be dismissed.

[ekrolo2]

I agree that kefla shouldn't have come out in base but kale's power does play a part since there is evidence to suggest that a base fusion > strongest fusee

So base kefla > ssj2 kale then it makes sense for base kefla to be above ssg goku

Also M Zamasu was totally destroying god/blue vegeta and goku and vegetto casually blew off half of his body. M Zamasu even thought Base Vegetto was a new transformation and said something along the lines of "1 hour will be enough to defeat you" whereas he was toying with goku and vegeta prior

Base fusion being stronger than a fusee doesn't mean automatically mean they're stronger than the fusee most powerful form, do you think Base Vegetto from the Boo arc would be above a hypothetical SS4 Goku just because Goku happens to have it?

Base Kefla is just Toei wank the same way Base Vegetto not getting shit stomped by Boohan was too.

You're ignoring the context of when and how Base Vegetto appears in. MZ has just finished beating down Goku to Base and is preparing to kill him when a sudden blast takes him by surprise. That's when Vegetto shows up in, when MZ recollect himself, he says it doesn't matter because hell just kill Vegetto anyway while he's in Base form. Vegetto says screw that, eats a senzu to power himself up to proper strength and goes Blue.

Yeah, I don't see what exactly is supposed to show here that Vegetto is above SS Blue Goku or Vegeta.

1. Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku (His max power at the time) so yes if goku had ssj4 in the buu arc, base vegetto would be even stronger than ssj4 goku. That is what i believe and evidence to support that exists
2. SSB Goku caught M Zamasu off guard and only blew a hole in him that M Zamasu easily laughed off, Base Vegetto caught him off guard and completely wrecked half his body. Plus as I said M Zamasu considered Base vegetto a new form and he had been dicking on ssb goku and vegeta previously.
3. When it comes to Super, we can't just waive stuff away as Toei wank because there is no source manga and the anime events can't just be dismissed.

1. Transformations have no bearing on a fusion unless the people are transformed into it and it certainly doesn't retroactively make the fusions Base form bigger. If we went by this logic, Base Vegetto in the anime should murdering MZ with SS1 or 2 since, according to what you suggest, he'd be stronger than KKX10 Blue Goku in Base, X2 Blue had previously beaten anime Zamasu into dirt.
2. So we're gonna use how big of a hole was made to judge power? By that logic, God Goku from BoG should be able to one shot Jiren since his punches can destroy all of U7.
3. Source manga or not, the old trend of bizarre power scaling symptomatic of old Toei is present and a accounted for in Super.

[PFM18]

Going by Kai, which Super follows on from, Base Vegito should be far above Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

So it's not surprising that Base Kefla would be even stronger than Legendary Super Saiyan Kale.

Also because the female pair should be drastically stronger than Goku and Vegeta back in the Buu Saga then Base Kefla should be far stronger than Base Vegito.

I agree with this

But why Super Saiyan God is assumingly stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Vegito but weaker than Base Kefla I can't really explain unless Super Saiyan God's power never changed from the Battle of Gods saga.

I always assumed that when/if Goku used SSG after that point then it must not yield the same boost because he "made that power his own", while not absorbing the form itself, for him to make that power his own and then attain the same boost doesn't make much sense. This Base Kefla>SSG Goku business confirmed my suspicions that the SSG multiplier used after the ritual must have been decreased. Some people refer to this as the "stacked SSG" as was discussed earlier.

If it did, Goku and Vegeta would be at minimum hundreds of times stronger in SSG than Goku was when he fought Beerus.

Why do you discount this as a possibility?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Why do you discount this as a possibility?

Generally, I try to keep things from becoming as bloated as they already are.

Simplicity and intent are what I go for; I also try to avoid any and all retconning unless absolutely necessary, and I try not to make everything about power levels.

So, instead of trying to make everything hundreds of times stronger in an instant, I try to work my way down and get things to a more reasonable-sounding number.

[ekrolo2]

Why do you discount this as a possibility?

Generally, I try to keep things from becoming as bloated as they already are.

Simplicity and intent are what I go for; I also try to avoid any and all retconning unless absolutely necessary, and I try not to make everything about power levels.

So, instead of trying to make everything hundreds of times stronger in an instant, I try to work my way down and get things to a more reasonable-sounding number.

Ditto, this is why I find notions like Base Vegetto (who's not even at full power) > SSBlue Goku & Vegeta because... Blue is their strongest form absurd.

[Puaru]

Gohan is as strong as SSJ Kefla so however strong SSJ Kefla is Gohan is equally strong.

[ZombieVito]

Why do you discount this as a possibility?

Generally, I try to keep things from becoming as bloated as they already are.

Simplicity and intent are what I go for; I also try to avoid any and all retconning unless absolutely necessary, and I try not to make everything about power levels.

So, instead of trying to make everything hundreds of times stronger in an instant, I try to work my way down and get things to a more reasonable-sounding number.

Ditto, this is why I find notions like Base Vegetto (who's not even at full power) > SSBlue Goku & Vegeta because... Blue is their strongest form absurd.

I find it funny that people actually believed that when Zamasu himself said he would kill base Vegetto.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Generally, I try to keep things from becoming as bloated as they already are.

Simplicity and intent are what I go for; I also try to avoid any and all retconning unless absolutely necessary, and I try not to make everything about power levels.

So, instead of trying to make everything hundreds of times stronger in an instant, I try to work my way down and get things to a more reasonable-sounding number.

Ditto, this is why I find notions like Base Vegetto (who's not even at full power) > SSBlue Goku & Vegeta because... Blue is their strongest form absurd.

I find it funny that people actually believed that when Zamasu himself said he would kill base Vegetto.

That doesn't mean much since you know, merged zamasu is immortal and can't be killed by a mortal so he could just wait out vegetto if it came to that.

Also base vegetto being < merged zamasu doesn't mean he wasn't above regular ssb goku/vegeta

MZ >Base Vegetto > SSB Goku/Vegeta

[ekrolo2]

Ditto, this is why I find notions like Base Vegetto (who's not even at full power) > SSBlue Goku & Vegeta because... Blue is their strongest form absurd.

I find it funny that people actually believed that when Zamasu himself said he would kill base Vegetto.

That doesn't mean much since you know, merged zamasu is immortal and can't be killed by a mortal so he could just wait out vegetto if it came to that.

Also base vegetto being < merged zamasu doesn't mean he wasn't above regular ssb goku/vegeta

MZ >Base Vegetto > SSB Goku/Vegeta

MZs immortality doesn't stop him from getting frightened or terrified at the prospect of someone managing to kill him. Hell, he resorts to taking a hostage when Goku tries to Hakai him thinking he's about to be annihilated.

I still don't know why you insist that a form someone has, not using it, just has means the fusion is by default stronger than it. Basic common sense will tell you this leads to dishusting levels of ballooning of abilities the likes of which would make Goku x Vegeta = seem paltry by comparison.

[Bullza]

On a bit of an unrelated note. The latest episode I just saw suggests Piccolo is stronger than Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks. That didn't seem to be the case back in the Buu Saga so that'd be down to training.

Likewise there was a bonus chapter recently where it showed the two probably on par with a Cell Jr so Piccolo should be above a Cell Jr also.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

For me it appears that the Potara fusion works by having the two users strongest forms combined and then multiplied a little. We can’t really just use the mangas version of the BoG arc as it’s super cut down, so using the two full versions (movie, and anime) we know that SSJG is handily above Vegetto.
So Vegetto vs Buuhan had shown that Vegetto could’ve very well needed SSJ to win, which works well with Vegetto being SSJ3 + SSJ2 x a bit. Manga Base Vegetto is then probably SSJB + SSJB x a bit. Anime base Kefla is above SSJG, so BSSJ Kale + Caulifla x a bit is once again feasible. I can’t use the manga version of Kefla as that Kefla would’ve been weak as shit compared to her at FP considering she was made up with an incapacitated Kale + a weakened Caulifla, and as we saw in the manga Vegetto needed to eat a senzu upon fusing.

Btw I put X a bit because I don’t have anything which I determine a definitive number.

Yeah, there's also the fact that fusion doesn't have a set formula and is just supposed to be >> the fusers' highest power if both fusers are in equal footing. SSJG wasn't a power they were capable of before, so it doesn't count. Good point there.

But i'm not sure why you are referring to this in the manga.

That was explained on my post.

The problem here is that you're acting like the ritual multiplier and the "stacked" multiplier are the same thing, but they aren't. First time Goku transformed he jumped several tiers of power, from below Pre Rosat Gotenks to far above even Gohan. After that the gap between his old and God forms diminished for some reason, so much that SSJB is only moderately above 10x SSJ according to the U6 Tournament.

Huh? They were not stronger in base in the Boo arc.

They were.

[PFM18]

I also try to avoid any and all retconning unless absolutely necessary

So, instead of trying to make everything hundreds of times stronger in an instant

I find it strange that say both of these in the same post. For you to have current SSG anything less than a hundred times stronger than BoG SSG, you would need to retcon the statement/feats that said that SSJ Goku(post-ritual)~SSG Goku. There's no real conceivable way that you could call SSG Goku less than 100x BoG unless you have a retcon. You seem to want both but from what I see it isn't possible the way the scaling works out.

This isn't a matter of unnecessarily bloating things for no reason, this is simply a matter of being objective about the story being told without any underlying bias towards having exceptionally small numbers.

That was explained on my post.

No you didn't. You simply explained the evidence that it may have changed. But you didn't actually give an In-Universe reason why it SHOULD have changed. There's no reason the manga SSG multiplier should have changed even though it appears that it has. In the anime, since Goku made the SSG power his own, it makes sense that if he were to transform again the boost would be diminished, and we have evidence to back that up.

[ZombieVito]

Ditto, this is why I find notions like Base Vegetto (who's not even at full power) > SSBlue Goku & Vegeta because... Blue is their strongest form absurd.

I find it funny that people actually believed that when Zamasu himself said he would kill base Vegetto.

That doesn't mean much since you know, merged zamasu is immortal and can't be killed by a mortal so he could just wait out vegetto if it came to that.

Also base vegetto being < merged zamasu doesn't mean he wasn't above regular ssb goku/vegeta

MZ >Base Vegetto > SSB Goku/Vegeta

Immortality in the manga is wimped. You don't even regenerate instantly like in the anime.

They were.

Are you really going to bring this old tiring argument up? Battle of Gods already prove this wrong.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

No you didn't. You simply explained the evidence that it may have changed. But you didn't actually give an In-Universe reason why it SHOULD have changed. There's no reason the manga SSG multiplier should have changed even though it appears that it has. In the anime, since Goku made the SSG power his own, it makes sense that if he were to transform again the boost would be diminished, and we have evidence to back that up.

So... The implications are wrong because we never got any explanation of why? Really? What a cop out.

Statements are true until contradicted. We do know for sure that the gap between SSJG Goku and SSJ shrunk, but we can only speculate why. This is like saying SSJ Future Trunks is weaker than Cyborg Freeza because we were never shown how he knows how strong he is.

All in all, the reason is Toyotaro wanted so. In universe who knows, doesn't make it any less true. Or is Android Arc Piccolo < Freeza or Boo Arc Goku = CG Goku because we never saw how they were training?

Are you really going to bring this old tiring argument up? Battle of Gods already prove this wrong.

You were the one who brought this up in the first place by implying they were weaker in the Boo Arc thought...

Beerus' statement can be brought into question as the majority of the evidence from before and after the statement was made, points towards the other side. So no, this isn't a fact by any means.