Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RecolorSaiyan]

As far as power creep. Goku in a 1 week span which encompasses his trip to Namek and the events on Namek, got thousands of times stronger.

I'm a bit rusty on Namek PLs (yeah yeah PLs are bs) but goku went from 8,000 + to 180,000 by the time he reached namek (6 days) and then went to 150 million by the end of that arc.


Just shows that training/improvement/zenkai/rage boost related gains are whatever the plot demands and have never had any consistency so Gohan going from at BEST his buu saga self to rivaling mssb goku if not being above in a span of 1 year Gravity room training + piccolo training/fight with kefla isn't THAT crazy

[PFM18]

So... The implications are wrong because we never got any explanation of why? Really? What a cop out.

Not even remotely what I said. The point was that this appears to be the case, but does it make sense that it is the case? Because like I said, it just looks like another Toyotaro inconsistency to me than anything else. I was simply trying to discuss if there is an In-Universe reason in the manga for this to be the case, because I didn't see one. Also you used the phrase "stacked SSG" when that terminology doesn't really apply to the manga.

Ultimately, in the anime, it is intuitively sound and backed up that the SSG multiplier changed, in the manga it changes for no particular reason other than Toyotaro's inconsistent writing.

Android Arc Piccolo < Freeza or Boo Arc Goku = CG Goku because we never saw how they were training?

Even though you were responding to something as if I was saying something I wasn't, this still isn't at all analogous to the situation.

[Marlowe89]

The problem here is that you're acting like the ritual multiplier and the "stacked" multiplier are the same thing, but they aren't. First time Goku transformed he jumped several tiers of power, from below Pre Rosat Gotenks to far above even Gohan. After that the gap between his old and God forms diminished for some reason, so much that SSJB is only moderately above 10x SSJ according to the U6 Tournament.

The U6 Tournament demonstrates that Super Saiyan Blue is around ten times stronger than Super Saiyan God, not Super Saiyan. SS Goku is able to briefly hold his own against Hit by predicting his movements, but base Goku could accomplish that as well (in both versions) so raw strength doesn't directly factor into the equation until he's able to bypass the Time-Skip by overpowering Hit.

Neither version suggests that Super Saiyan God has two different multipliers throughout the story. In the anime's case, it's just headcanon that fans try to rationalize because base Kefla was stronger than SSG Goku, but it's not like it's implied anywhere. If anything, it's about as unfounded as the two base theory. There are other explanations laid out for that scenario in the tournament either way.

[PFM18]

Neither version suggests that Super Saiyan God has two different multipliers throughout the story. In the anime's case, it's just headcanon that fans try to rationalize because base Kefla was stronger than SSG Goku, but it's not like it's implied anywhere. If anything, it's about as unfounded as the two base theory. There are other explanations laid out for that scenario in the tournament either way.

I don't like discussing things with you but I'll just repost the evidence/reasoning as to why the multiplier should/did reasonably change in the anime so anyone interested in being objective on the matter can see it and interpret it however they see fit.

[spoiler]

Intuitively it makes sense why the multiplier would have changed because Goku achieved SSG from the ritual and then "made the power his own" and while not absorbing the form itself, it wouldn't make much sense for the boost to stay the same following the events of BoG. And there's an plenty of evidence that this basic logical deduction holds up.

Potara fusion, as we see with Kefla and Vegeto in Z, allows the fusion's base to be stronger than the previous highest output of the characters in question. Hence, according to the dbz anime and the Daizenshuu:

Base Vegetto>SSJ3 Goku

And obviously, the fusion can still use those transformations. But in the BoG arc we are told that this enormous boost is inferior to the boost given by Super Saiyan God. The two statements mentioned previously show this to be the case. It was strongly implied that:

SSG Goku>>SSJ3 Vegetto

Now, if the multiplier were to stay the same, then things would look definitively look like this:

SSG Goku>>SSJ2 Kefla.

Since, Goku and Caulifla were equivalent to each other in equivalent forms, this relationship between potara and SSG should still hold the same. Not only is this not the case, but BASE Kefla appears to be stronger than Super Saiyan God. Not only does Goku not dominate SSJ2 Kefla like he would had the boost stayed the same, Kefla doesn't even need to transform. The previous implications are that SSG would overpower SSJ2 Kefla, but he insn't en enough for base so that tells us that at a bare minimum the boost must have decreased by 100x.

Even though this is pretty crystal clear, there is still more evidence.

In BoG the boost from SSG->SSJ3 is astronomical. Absolutely massive. Goku's SSG surpasses anything he can do as a fusion at the very least. So, at the very least, since:

SSJ3 Vegetto>SSJ3 Goku>SSJ2 Goku

Where the two relationships have a 4x and 400x boost, we can see that at the absolute bare minimum, the difference between SSJ2 and SSG should be a 1,600x difference.

But in the Tournament of Power, we see that Goku goes SSJ2 and fights evenly with Caulifla. Then he goes SSG and he gains a significant advantage over Caulifla and Kale. However, if the boost stayed 1,600x stronger, then he would have instantly one shot Caulifla and put her out of commission. The boost still exists, but is undeniably diminished considering there is still a competition.

In short, we see in BoG that SSG yields an astronomical boost over SSJ3 and the boost is higher than the boost over potara but in the ToP we can clearly see that is not the case. So, for either of these things to be true, the SSG boost must have diminished.

[/spoiler]

(I didn't post this in this thread, i posted it in another but I figured I would compile my thoughts on the matter here.

[Green]

PFM18, you're a good poster but I'm gonna have to disagree with you here: Kefla has no relation with Vegetto whatsoever. Gains yielded by fusing have never been arbitrary, we can't just assume a specific form of Vegetto would be stronger than a specific form of Kefla. On top of that, Kefla has the green Super Saiyan form unlike Vegetto.

Kefla being that strong is a feat for her, not for Vegetto. Atleast, that's my view on it: I wouldn't be surprised if I were to be proven very wrong in the future.

[ekrolo2]

Is it really out of the question Toriyama silently retconned Shin's power? The way the character is initially treated vs what he quickly devolves into kind of points to him going from someone of genuine strength to a worthless scrub who has no idea what he's doing.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Is it really out of the question Toriyama silently retconned Shin's power? The way the character is initially treated vs what he quickly devolves into kind of points to him going from someone of genuine strength to a worthless scrub who has no idea what he's doing.

To be fair, he was a lot like that in the original manga, though not quite as flanderized.

Apparently, it was the arrival of Perfect Cell that really made him question if the mortals had actually surpassed the gods, at least the ones known at the time; this was confirmed for him once he saw how strong the Saiyans really were during the hunt for Babidi. But it was ONLY Cell and everything that came afterwards that was confirmed to have been beyond his own power.

I also got the impression he was kind of a runt among Kaioshin in terms of strength, with the upper echelons like the Grand Supreme Kai being able to apparently match up with Pure Buu.

[dbgtFO]

Apparently, it was the arrival of Perfect Cell that really made him question if the mortals had actually surpassed the gods, at least the ones known at the time; this was confirmed for him once he saw how strong the Saiyans really were during the hunt for Babidi. But it was ONLY Cell and everything that came afterwards that was confirmed to have been beyond his own power.

Where are you getting the idea, that he knew about Cell?

[TheOne]

Apparently, it was the arrival of Perfect Cell that really made him question if the mortals had actually surpassed the gods, at least the ones known at the time; this was confirmed for him once he saw how strong the Saiyans really were during the hunt for Babidi. But it was ONLY Cell and everything that came afterwards that was confirmed to have been beyond his own power.

Where are you getting the idea, that he knew about Cell?

Yeah I’m curious as well. If he knew about Cell, he’d know that there’s a ssj2. If he also knew how strong Cell was, there’s no way he would’ve freaked out during the fight with pui pui (I think that’s his name?) and Yakon.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I dunno, I heard secondhand that apparently Shin's realization point was Cell or something.

[Marlowe89]

PFM18, you're a good poster but I'm gonna have to disagree with you here: Kefla has no relation with Vegetto whatsoever. Gains yielded by fusing have never been arbitrary, we can't just assume a specific form of Vegetto would be stronger than a specific form of Kefla. On top of that, Kefla has the green Super Saiyan form unlike Vegetto.

Kefla being that strong is a feat for her, not for Vegetto. Atleast, that's my view on it: I wouldn't be surprised if I were to be proven very wrong in the future.

It's not just that, the main issue is what it's being used to rationalize.

The problem with the "two gods" theory, as I'll coin it henceforth, is that it's a blatant non-sequitur; it starts with the assumption that Super Saiyan God's boost must have decreased from before, then reverse-engineers plot points that may be unrelated to fit the conclusion its supporter prefers (as opposed to starting with those plot points and forming a conclusion therefrom). Nothing in the show confirms that the multiplier decreased, but all manner of instances can be recontextualized to support the perception that it did.

Some people freely acknowledge that it's just their headcanon, and that's fine, because that's exactly what it is. They're entitled to it, and it may not even be incorrect -- it's just not strongly supported by anything either.

[RecolorSaiyan]

I dunno, I heard secondhand that apparently Shin's realization point was Cell or something.

His realization point was when they fought babidi’s henchmen and Goku handled yakon and Vegeta smoked pui pui

[PFM18]

PFM18, you're a good poster but I'm gonna have to disagree with you here: Kefla has no relation with Vegetto whatsoever. Gains yielded by fusing have never been arbitrary, we can't just assume a specific form of Vegetto would be stronger than a specific form of Kefla.

Well, we can because Goku and Caullifla were identical in power. Kale is slightly to substantially stronger than Caulifla so there's no reason why Kefla shouldn't be extremely similar in power to Vegetto considering that Caulifla/Kale are very similar in power to a hypothetical Vegetto in this case, Caullifla and Kale are very similar in power to each other, and they are both female Saiyans. It fits all of the parameters for a similar potara fusion boost and so it should have had a similar potara fusion boost in relation to SSG. Even if the boosts are only similar and not identical, the fact that Base Kefla<SSG Goku means that this is at a bare minimum a 100x less potent fusion for no particular reason, and the differences between the fusees of Kefla and Vegetto should not make for a hundreds of times difference in potency. Either this fusion was 100x less potent than Vegetto's fusion, or the SSG multiplier dramatically decreased.

Additionally, we can see this reinforced when Goku goes from SSJ2->SSG it doesn't appear to be an incredibly large boost, and from what we know of what we saw during BoG, it must have been at at least 1,600x stronger than SSJ2. This also indicates a decreased multiplier since obviously a 1600x multiplier has not been portrayed in this fight.

On top of the fact that Goku had already made the initial power he gained from the ritual his own, it certainly seems clear that there's a decreased SSG multiplier in the anime and for good reason.

[RecolorSaiyan]

PFM18, you're a good poster but I'm gonna have to disagree with you here: Kefla has no relation with Vegetto whatsoever. Gains yielded by fusing have never been arbitrary, we can't just assume a specific form of Vegetto would be stronger than a specific form of Kefla.

Well, we can because Goku and Caullifla were identical in power. Kale is slightly to substantially stronger than Caulifla so there's no reason why Kefla shouldn't be extremely similar in power to Vegetto considering that Caulifla/Kale are very similar in power to a hypothetical Vegetto in this case, Caullifla and Kale are very similar in power to each other, and they are both female Saiyans. It fits all of the parameters for a similar potara fusion boost and so it should have had a similar potara fusion boost in relation to SSG. Even if the boosts are only similar and not identical, the fact that Base Kefla<SSG Goku means that this is at a bare minimum a 100x less potent fusion for no particular reason, and the differences between the fusees of Kefla and Vegetto should not make for a hundreds of times difference in potency. Either this fusion was 100x less potent than Vegetto's fusion, or the SSG multiplier dramatically decreased.

Additionally, we can see this reinforced when Goku goes from SSJ2->SSG it doesn't appear to be an incredibly large boost, and from what we know of what we saw during BoG, it must have been at at least 1,600x stronger than SSJ2. This also indicates a decreased multiplier since obviously a 1600x multiplier has not been portrayed in this fight.

On top of the fact that Goku had already made the initial power he gained from the ritual his own, it certainly seems clear that there's a decreased SSG multiplier in the anime and for good reason.

Are you talking in base or overall?

because ssj2 kale is leagues above ssj2 caulifla.

Kale pushed goku to blue in Round 1, when she went berserk in episode 114, jiren, toppo and ssb vegeta all took notice of her power and even goku was scared. Caulifla at her best is ssj2 goku level which wouldn't even register for the likes of Toppo, jiren and ssb vegeta

[PFM18]

PFM18, you're a good poster but I'm gonna have to disagree with you here: Kefla has no relation with Vegetto whatsoever. Gains yielded by fusing have never been arbitrary, we can't just assume a specific form of Vegetto would be stronger than a specific form of Kefla.

Well, we can because Goku and Caullifla were identical in power. Kale is slightly to substantially stronger than Caulifla so there's no reason why Kefla shouldn't be extremely similar in power to Vegetto considering that Caulifla/Kale are very similar in power to a hypothetical Vegetto in this case, Caullifla and Kale are very similar in power to each other, and they are both female Saiyans. It fits all of the parameters for a similar potara fusion boost and so it should have had a similar potara fusion boost in relation to SSG. Even if the boosts are only similar and not identical, the fact that Base Kefla<SSG Goku means that this is at a bare minimum a 100x less potent fusion for no particular reason, and the differences between the fusees of Kefla and Vegetto should not make for a hundreds of times difference in potency. Either this fusion was 100x less potent than Vegetto's fusion, or the SSG multiplier dramatically decreased.

Additionally, we can see this reinforced when Goku goes from SSJ2->SSG it doesn't appear to be an incredibly large boost, and from what we know of what we saw during BoG, it must have been at at least 1,600x stronger than SSJ2. This also indicates a decreased multiplier since obviously a 1600x multiplier has not been portrayed in this fight.

On top of the fact that Goku had already made the initial power he gained from the ritual his own, it certainly seems clear that there's a decreased SSG multiplier in the anime and for good reason.

Are you talking in base or overall?

because ssj2 kale is leagues above ssj2 caulifla.

Kale pushed goku to blue in Round 1, when she went berserk in episode 114, jiren, toppo and ssb vegeta all took notice of her power and even goku was scared. Caulifla at her best is ssj2 goku level which wouldn't even register for the likes of Toppo, jiren and ssb vegeta

Goku was immensely suppressed against Kale in the first round and that is further reinforced when a significantly stronger version of Kale got bodied by Goku as a SSG. She was stronger than Caulifla and performed better than her, but not overwhelmingly so, she still lost. All Kale can really lay claim to is the fact that she is closer to SSG Goku than Caulifla is to SSG Goku.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Well, we can because Goku and Caullifla were identical in power. Kale is slightly to substantially stronger than Caulifla so there's no reason why Kefla shouldn't be extremely similar in power to Vegetto considering that Caulifla/Kale are very similar in power to a hypothetical Vegetto in this case, Caullifla and Kale are very similar in power to each other, and they are both female Saiyans. It fits all of the parameters for a similar potara fusion boost and so it should have had a similar potara fusion boost in relation to SSG. Even if the boosts are only similar and not identical, the fact that Base Kefla<SSG Goku means that this is at a bare minimum a 100x less potent fusion for no particular reason, and the differences between the fusees of Kefla and Vegetto should not make for a hundreds of times difference in potency. Either this fusion was 100x less potent than Vegetto's fusion, or the SSG multiplier dramatically decreased.

Additionally, we can see this reinforced when Goku goes from SSJ2->SSG it doesn't appear to be an incredibly large boost, and from what we know of what we saw during BoG, it must have been at at least 1,600x stronger than SSJ2. This also indicates a decreased multiplier since obviously a 1600x multiplier has not been portrayed in this fight.

On top of the fact that Goku had already made the initial power he gained from the ritual his own, it certainly seems clear that there's a decreased SSG multiplier in the anime and for good reason.

Are you talking in base or overall?

because ssj2 kale is leagues above ssj2 caulifla.

Kale pushed goku to blue in Round 1, when she went berserk in episode 114, jiren, toppo and ssb vegeta all took notice of her power and even goku was scared. Caulifla at her best is ssj2 goku level which wouldn't even register for the likes of Toppo, jiren and ssb vegeta

Goku was immensely suppressed against Kale in the first round and that is further reinforced when a significantly stronger version of Kale got bodied by Goku as a SSG. She was stronger than Caulifla and performed better than her, but not overwhelmingly so, she still lost. All Kale can really lay claim to is the fact that she is closer to SSG Goku than Caulifla is to SSG Goku.

Goku also got stronger and stronger as the ToP went on especially after breaking his limits vs Jiren in the special. Even caulifla remarked that ssj2 goku power in round 2 was completely different than when they first fought. Whis said he was sharpening himself against Caulifla and Kale.

I don't think its a stretch to say ssg goku (episode 114) surpassed ssb goku (episode 100)

Even in episode 100, toppo was scared/shocked of kale's power and jiren felt the need to step in so i think she was legitimately close to ssb if not stronger in that episode

[PFM18]

Goku also got stronger and stronger as the ToP went on especially after breaking his limits vs Jiren in the special.

This business about "breaking limits" refers to the form of Ultra Instinct itself. The reason that it yielded a power boost for him is a "Limit Breaker" and so now when he was in that form he could access power far beyond his normal limitations.

I don't think its a stretch to say ssg goku (episode 114) surpassed ssb goku (episode 100)

It's a huge stretch. Very little evidence of this. Outside of maybe one quote by Caulifla, there's no real indication that he had gotten dramatically stronger. If he had gotten stronger to where his SSG in 114 was stronger than his SSB in ep 100, then it would have to be an astronomical difference. A Kale that had vastly increased her power had lost to somebody who she had easily defeated before, and yet now Kale is only performing marginally better than Caulifla.

I think it is more reasonable to assume Goku was heavily suppressed in the first skirmish. Otherwise, Caulifla would have needed to have gotten a very large boost to compete alongside her sister who is apparently far stronger than ep 100 SSB,and there's no real indication that she had improved at all, let alone to that extent.

It would need to mean:

SSG Goku ep 114>Controlled Berserk Kale>Berserk Kale>SSB Goku ep 100>>>>SSJ2 Goku/Caulifla

And yet now Caulifla is fighting alongside Kale as though they are relatively even. Caulifla would have had to jump several spots in the above power chain for absolutely no reason

Even in episode 100, toppo was scared/shocked of kale's power and jiren felt the need to step in so i think she was legitimately close to ssb if not stronger in that episode

Toppo was surprised at how strong she was. There's really nothing else that can be reasonably drawn from this. He was shocked by Kale's power, but I don't see any reason to believe he was scared of her.

[ZombieVito]

PFM18, you're a good poster but I'm gonna have to disagree with you here: Kefla has no relation with Vegetto whatsoever. Gains yielded by fusing have never been arbitrary, we can't just assume a specific form of Vegetto would be stronger than a specific form of Kefla. On top of that, Kefla has the green Super Saiyan form unlike Vegetto.

Kefla being that strong is a feat for her, not for Vegetto. Atleast, that's my view on it: I wouldn't be surprised if I were to be proven very wrong in the future.

I agree. For all we know Kefla got a bigger Portara boost for whatever reason.

[Bullza]

So today I want to ask if you can help me clear some of the confusion regarding Frost.

In the Resurrection F Saga, Base Goku and Frieza were shown to be pretty much even (in the movie Goku did have an advantage).

Then we have Frost. In his Third Form he seemed to have an advantage over Base Goku but it looks like he may not have been going all out in Base form. Later on Vegeta still transforms to fight Frost even when he's powered down a ton.

In the Universe Survival Saga though we're told Frost doesn't stand a chance against Frieza (in his Final Form).

So does it go

Base Goku ~ Frieza > Frost or Frieza > Frost > Base Goku

Or was Frost actually stronger than Frieza in the Resurrection F Saga and Frieza just surpassed him after all his image training after he died for the second time?

[Sora Saiyan]

PFM18, you're a good poster but I'm gonna have to disagree with you here: Kefla has no relation with Vegetto whatsoever. Gains yielded by fusing have never been arbitrary, we can't just assume a specific form of Vegetto would be stronger than a specific form of Kefla.

Well, we can because Goku and Caullifla were identical in power. Kale is slightly to substantially stronger than Caulifla so there's no reason why Kefla shouldn't be extremely similar in power to Vegetto considering that Caulifla/Kale are very similar in power to a hypothetical Vegetto in this case, Caullifla and Kale are very similar in power to each other, and they are both female Saiyans. It fits all of the parameters for a similar potara fusion boost and so it should have had a similar potara fusion boost in relation to SSG. Even if the boosts are only similar and not identical, the fact that Base Kefla<SSG Goku means that this is at a bare minimum a 100x less potent fusion for no particular reason, and the differences between the fusees of Kefla and Vegetto should not make for a hundreds of times difference in potency. Either this fusion was 100x less potent than Vegetto's fusion, or the SSG multiplier dramatically decreased.

So according to this a ToP SSJ2 Vegetto would be very close to Kafla for you? So does that mean that Kafla is miles below SSJB Vegetto from the Zamasu arc? I mean there were some pretty big gains in the ToP, but claiming that SSJG Vegetto (ToP) > SSJB Vegetto (Zamasu arc) is a massive push. I mean that would be like a 50x increase.

If you do have Vegetto and Kafla close to each other it would end up looking like this right?
SSJB Vegetto (Zamasu arc) > SSJG Vegetto (ToP) > SSJ3 Kafla > SSJ3 Vegetto > SSJ2 Kafla.