Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RecolorSaiyan]

PFM18, you're a good poster but I'm gonna have to disagree with you here: Kefla has no relation with Vegetto whatsoever. Gains yielded by fusing have never been arbitrary, we can't just assume a specific form of Vegetto would be stronger than a specific form of Kefla.

Well, we can because Goku and Caullifla were identical in power. Kale is slightly to substantially stronger than Caulifla so there's no reason why Kefla shouldn't be extremely similar in power to Vegetto considering that Caulifla/Kale are very similar in power to a hypothetical Vegetto in this case, Caullifla and Kale are very similar in power to each other, and they are both female Saiyans. It fits all of the parameters for a similar potara fusion boost and so it should have had a similar potara fusion boost in relation to SSG. Even if the boosts are only similar and not identical, the fact that Base Kefla<SSG Goku means that this is at a bare minimum a 100x less potent fusion for no particular reason, and the differences between the fusees of Kefla and Vegetto should not make for a hundreds of times difference in potency. Either this fusion was 100x less potent than Vegetto's fusion, or the SSG multiplier dramatically decreased.

So according to this a ToP SSJ2 Vegetto would be very close to Kafla for you? So does that mean that Kafla is miles below SSJB Vegetto from the Zamasu arc? I mean there were some pretty big gains in the ToP, but claiming that SSJG Vegetto (ToP) > SSJB Vegetto (Zamasu arc) is a massive push. I mean that would be like a 50x increase.

If you do have Vegetto and Kafla close to each other it would end up looking like this right?
SSJB Vegetto (Zamasu arc) > SSJG Vegetto (ToP) > SSJ3 Kafla > SSJ3 Vegetto > SSJ2 Kafla.

Why are people forgetting that Kefla used a different type of ssj form? Her aura and hair was both green which is what kale uses. Those forms have different multipliers than regular ones

[PFM18]

Or was Frost actually stronger than Frieza in the Resurrection F Saga and Frieza just surpassed him after all his image training after he died for the second time?

Yeah I believe this is the case. Goku has gotten massively stronger since the Universe 6 arc and Freeza was able to match him in equivalent forms so I believe Freeza surpassed him with his mental training.

Final Form Freeza(ToP)>ToP Frost>Frost U6 arc>U6 Base Goku>RoF Final Form Freeza~RoF Base Goku

So according to this a ToP SSJ2 Vegetto would be very close to Kafla for you?

Yeah. Pretty much. However, I don't see where Zamasu arc SSB Vegetto stands in this is particularly relevant here

SSJB Vegetto (Zamasu arc) > SSJG Vegetto (ToP) > SSJ3 Kafla > SSJ3 Vegetto > SSJ2 Kafla.

Yeah I would say that is pretty fair. Kefla and Vegetto should be extremely close in equivalent forms with each other given that Caulifla and Goku were equal in equivalent forms. Of course, this is a very exhausted Goku so Caulifla is relative to this iteration of Goku. It is very hard to put SSB Vegetto into all of this given the emphasis on how exhausted Goku was during this time and the fact that we don't have much to use as a base for comparison.

What is important here is that SSG boost>>potara boost should stay the same proportionally speaking,and it clearly hasn't. And so this means that either Kefla gained at least a 100x more potent fusion than Vegetto would for no particular reason, or the SSG multiplier has changed because Goku had already made that power his own so the associated boost is diminished.

[Sora Saiyan]

So according to this a ToP SSJ2 Vegetto would be very close to Kafla for you? So does that mean that Kafla is miles below SSJB Vegetto from the Zamasu arc? I mean there were some pretty big gains in the ToP, but claiming that SSJG Vegetto (ToP) > SSJB Vegetto (Zamasu arc) is a massive push. I mean that would be like a 50x increase.

If you do have Vegetto and Kafla close to each other it would end up looking like this right?
SSJB Vegetto (Zamasu arc) > SSJG Vegetto (ToP) > SSJ3 Kafla > SSJ3 Vegetto > SSJ2 Kafla.

Why are people forgetting that Kefla used a different type of ssj form? Her aura and hair was both green which is what kale uses. Those forms have different multipliers than regular ones

Dude, I wasn’t saying I agreed with the theory, I just like seeing people theories in a little more depth.
Kefla definitely didn’t show an increase like Kales. Kales was insanely huge! Going from a puny base to something astronomical, I wouldn’t even want to give that form a multi. Keflas appeared to be a lot more in line with regular SSJ I would say, but maybe her climbing power at the end portion of the fight with Omen was to do with the berserk power being mixed in.

SSJB Vegetto (Zamasu arc) > SSJG Vegetto (ToP) > SSJ3 Kafla > SSJ3 Vegetto > SSJ2 Kafla.

Yeah I would say that is pretty fair. Kefla and Vegetto should be extremely close in equivalent forms with each other given that Caulifla and Goku were equal in equivalent forms. Of course, this is a very exhausted Goku so Caulifla is relative to this iteration of Goku. It is very hard to put SSB Vegetto into all of this given the emphasis on how exhausted Goku was during this time and the fact that we don't have much to use as a base for comparison.

What is important here is that SSG boost>>potara boost should stay the same proportionally speaking,and it clearly hasn't. And so this means that either Kefla gained at least a 100x more potent fusion than Vegetto would for no particular reason, or the SSG multiplier has changed because Goku had already made that power his own so the associated boost is diminished.

Cool!
Btw I totally forgot about Goku’s stamina! Yeah a fully fit Vegetto would probably be above Kefla.
Btw I added SSJB Vegetto (Zamasu arc) because I wanted to ask another question upon receiving your answer.
So where do you place Jiren when compared to Blue Vegetto ( Zamasu arc)? Blue Vegetto from that arc would be crazy special according to this theory. Would you more or less believe that line from the manga that had Kaioshin question if Vegetto was above Beerus?

[RecolorSaiyan]

So according to this a ToP SSJ2 Vegetto would be very close to Kafla for you? So does that mean that Kafla is miles below SSJB Vegetto from the Zamasu arc? I mean there were some pretty big gains in the ToP, but claiming that SSJG Vegetto (ToP) > SSJB Vegetto (Zamasu arc) is a massive push. I mean that would be like a 50x increase.

If you do have Vegetto and Kafla close to each other it would end up looking like this right?
SSJB Vegetto (Zamasu arc) > SSJG Vegetto (ToP) > SSJ3 Kafla > SSJ3 Vegetto > SSJ2 Kafla.

Why are people forgetting that Kefla used a different type of ssj form? Her aura and hair was both green which is what kale uses. Those forms have different multipliers than regular ones

Dude, I wasn’t saying I agreed with the theory, I just like seeing people theories in a little more depth.
Kefla definitely didn’t show an increase like Kales. Kales was insanely huge! Going from a puny base to something astronomical, I wouldn’t even want to give that form a multi. Keflas appeared to be a lot more in line with regular SSJ I would say, but maybe her climbing power at the end portion of the fight with Omen was to do with the berserk power being mixed in.

SSJB Vegetto (Zamasu arc) > SSJG Vegetto (ToP) > SSJ3 Kafla > SSJ3 Vegetto > SSJ2 Kafla.

Yeah I would say that is pretty fair. Kefla and Vegetto should be extremely close in equivalent forms with each other given that Caulifla and Goku were equal in equivalent forms. Of course, this is a very exhausted Goku so Caulifla is relative to this iteration of Goku. It is very hard to put SSB Vegetto into all of this given the emphasis on how exhausted Goku was during this time and the fact that we don't have much to use as a base for comparison.

What is important here is that SSG boost>>potara boost should stay the same proportionally speaking,and it clearly hasn't. And so this means that either Kefla gained at least a 100x more potent fusion than Vegetto would for no particular reason, or the SSG multiplier has changed because Goku had already made that power his own so the associated boost is diminished.

Cool!
Btw I totally forgot about Goku’s stamina! Yeah a fully fit Vegetto would probably be above Kefla.
Btw I added SSJB Vegetto (Zamasu arc) because I wanted to ask another question upon receiving your answer.
So where do you place Jiren when compared to Blue Vegetto ( Zamasu arc)? Blue Vegetto from that arc would be crazy special according to this theory. Would you more or less believe that line from the manga that had Kaioshin question if Vegetto was above Beerus?

In the anime, jiren is clearly far above vegito blue. In the manga however I have Vegito Blue >= Jiren

[ZombieVito]

So today I want to ask if you can help me clear some of the confusion regarding Frost.

In the Resurrection F Saga, Base Goku and Frieza were shown to be pretty much even (in the movie Goku did have an advantage).

Then we have Frost. In his Third Form he seemed to have an advantage over Base Goku but it looks like he may not have been going all out in Base form. Later on Vegeta still transforms to fight Frost even when he's powered down a ton.

In the Universe Survival Saga though we're told Frost doesn't stand a chance against Frieza (in his Final Form).

So does it go

Base Goku ~ Frieza > Frost or Frieza > Frost > Base Goku

Or was Frost actually stronger than Frieza in the Resurrection F Saga and Frieza just surpassed him after all his image training after he died for the second time?

I just assume Champa was wrong or he sensed some of Freeza's full power. Freeza shouldn't be Super Saiyan tier at all in his Final form.

Frost on the other hand managed to not get one shotted by SS Vegeta.

[Bullza]

Yeah I believe this is the case. Goku has gotten massively stronger since the Universe 6 arc and Freeza was able to match him in equivalent forms so I believe Freeza surpassed him with his mental training.

Final Form Freeza(ToP)>ToP Frost>Frost U6 arc>U6 Base Goku>RoF Final Form Freeza~RoF Base Goku

I can sort of see that. Base Goku and Frieza seemed pretty even when they fought. Vegeta transformed against a weakened Frost which makes you think that Frost would be stronger than Frieza.

By the Tournament of Power, they said that Frieza was too much for Frost. Frieza would seemingly be above Base Goku seeing how easily he handled Jimeze who Goku was shown using Super Saiyan against.

But how could Frost have weakened so much to the point he said he couldn't accidentally kill Piccolo yet still be above Base Vegeta who would be far above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks?

Freeza shouldn't be Super Saiyan tier at all in his Final form.

Frost on the other hand managed to not get one shotted by SS Vegeta.

Well Frost and Super Saiyan Vegeta had a brief exchange bit then so did Lavender as well but he shouldn't be as strong as even Buu.

He also seemed like he was going to fight him without transforming at first until Magetta showed up and then he transformed immediately.

[ZombieVito]

Well Frost and Super Saiyan Vegeta had a brief exchange bit then so did Lavender as well but he shouldn't be as strong as even Buu.

He also seemed like he was going to fight him without transforming at first until Magetta showed up and then he transformed immediately.

Frost lasted a lot more though and exchanged hits with him twice. Goku's performance against Bergamo and Basil should be clear indication that the Trio stood no chance against them as Super Saiyans since they were overpowered very quickly. Goku even smiled while blasting Bergamo.

[dragon boss z]

So today I want to ask if you can help me clear some of the confusion regarding Frost.
In the Resurrection F Saga, Base Goku and Frieza were shown to be pretty much even (in the movie Goku did have an advantage).
Then we have Frost. In his Third Form he seemed to have an advantage over Base Goku but it looks like he may not have been going all out in Base form. Later on Vegeta still transforms to fight Frost even when he's powered down a ton.
In the Universe Survival Saga though we're told Frost doesn't stand a chance against Frieza (in his Final Form).
So does it go
Base Goku ~ Frieza > Frost or Frieza > Frost > Base Goku
Or was Frost actually stronger than Frieza in the Resurrection F Saga and Frieza just surpassed him after all his image training after he died for the second time?

Here is my take on it.
Frieza wasn't using his full power on Goku in the RoF arc, as we know he can still go buff in the ToP and after Goku goes Blue Frieza seemingly powered up a bit and his speed surprised even blue Goku.
Goku only went ssj on Frost in the first place to make Frost transform into his final form but it is possible for Frost to be above base Goku.
I would say
suppressed final form Frieza Frieza<=base Goku<final form Frost (near full power)<less suppressed final form Frieza<=100% Frost<100% Frieza<ssj Goku

Other things to note, in the manga when fighting Frost Goku says if he trains he could get stronger like Frieza, implying RoF Frieza was above him, the fact Frieza has a golden form and Frost doesn't, Frost calls Frieza his senior in the manga, and like you said Champa says Frost is no match for final form Frieza in the anime.
Final form Frieza was even able to give Dyspo trouble, and Dyspo gave Hit trouble, who we know could casually stomp Frost.

Well Frost and Super Saiyan Vegeta had a brief exchange bit then so did Lavender as well but he shouldn't be as strong as even Buu.

He also seemed like he was going to fight him without transforming at first until Magetta showed up and then he transformed immediately.

Frost lasted a lot more though and exchanged hits with him twice. Goku's performance against Bergamo and Basil should be clear indication that the Trio stood no chance against them as Super Saiyans since they were overpowered very quickly. Goku even smiled while blasting Bergamo.

Frost was losing to base Vegeta until Magetta showed up (the reason Vegeta went ssj).

[Bullza]

Frost lasted a lot more though and exchanged hits with him twice. Goku's performance against Bergamo and Basil should be clear indication that the Trio stood no chance against them as Super Saiyans since they were overpowered very quickly. Goku even smiled while blasting Bergamo.

Well in the manga he did hold his own a bit more than he did in the anime so it wasn't quite so one sided. What you refer to seems to fit more with the manga.

I've finished rewatching the Universe 6 fights with Frost and yeah as weird as it might be, I'd say he was probably above Frieza in his Final Form during the Resurrection F Saga. Goku never bothered to transform against Frieza, he even said he didn't need to but he and Vegeta did transform for Frost. I definitely don't think he was nearly as strong as Frieza in the Tournament of Power though so I go with what Champa said.

Though I have no idea how Piccolo fared as well as he did. His Special Beam Cannon must have been really powerful because Champa's small blast didn't shatter the dome so I can see why it would probably be able to defeat Frost.

But how Piccolo was able to block Frost's attack with one hand and summon up enough power in the first place...yeah it'd be like taking down Vegito or Super Vegito, doesn't make any sense.

Frieza wasn't using his full power on Goku in the RoF arc, as we know he can still go buff in the ToP and after Goku goes Blue Frieza seemingly powered up a bit and his speed surprised even blue Goku

Yeah well back in the Frieza Saga, Frieza ranged his power from about 3-70% and he didn't physically change. There's no way of really knowing how much power Frieza used against Goku except it wasn't 100%.

Frost tired out very quickly unlike Frieza so you'd think he used a much higher percentage of power.

So Frost was probably at a higher power level than Frieza when they both fought Goku but perhaps if they both used the same percentage then Frieza would win.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Frost lasted a lot more though and exchanged hits with him twice. Goku's performance against Bergamo and Basil should be clear indication that the Trio stood no chance against them as Super Saiyans since they were overpowered very quickly. Goku even smiled while blasting Bergamo.

Well in the manga he did hold his own a bit more than he did in the anime so it wasn't quite so one sided. What you refer to seems to fit more with the manga.

I've finished rewatching the Universe 6 fights with Frost and yeah as weird as it might be, I'd say he was probably above Frieza in his Final Form during the Resurrection F Saga. Goku never bothered to transform against Frieza, he even said he didn't need to but he and Vegeta did transform for Frost. I definitely don't think he was nearly as strong as Frieza in the Tournament of Power though so I go with what Champa said.

Though I have no idea how Piccolo fared as well as he did. His Special Beam Cannon must have been really powerful because Champa's small blast didn't shatter the dome so I can see why it would probably be able to defeat Frost.

But how Piccolo was able to block Frost's attack with one hand and summon up enough power in the first place...yeah it'd be like taking down Vegito or Super Vegito, doesn't make any sense.

Frieza wasn't using his full power on Goku in the RoF arc, as we know he can still go buff in the ToP and after Goku goes Blue Frieza seemingly powered up a bit and his speed surprised even blue Goku

Yeah well back in the Frieza Saga, Frieza ranged his power from about 3-70% and he didn't physically change. There's no way of really knowing how much power Frieza used against Goku except it wasn't 100%.

Frost tired out very quickly unlike Frieza so you'd think he used a much higher percentage of power.

So Frost was probably at a higher power level than Frieza when they both fought Goku but perhaps if they both used the same percentage then Frieza would win.

one of the below, most likely 1 or 2

1. There was a retcon after RoF
2. Piccolo got a huge plot based buff which put him above all DBZ characters
3. Special beam cannon suddenly started amplifying power thousands of folds

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Not even remotely what I said. The point was that this appears to be the case, but does it make sense that it is the case? Because like I said, it just looks like another Toyotaro inconsistency to me than anything else. I was simply trying to discuss if there is an In-Universe reason in the manga for this to be the case, because I didn't see one. Also you used the phrase "stacked SSG" when that terminology doesn't really apply to the manga.

Ultimately, in the anime, it is intuitively sound and backed up that the SSG multiplier changed, in the manga it changes for no particular reason other than Toyotaro's inconsistent writing.

That's exactly what i'm talking about though. You're saying it's just an inconsistence just because we didn't get any complex explanation of how it works.

The U6 Tournament demonstrates that Super Saiyan Blue is around ten times stronger than Super Saiyan God, not Super Saiyan. SS Goku is able to briefly hold his own against Hit by predicting his movements, but base Goku could accomplish that as well (in both versions) so raw strength doesn't directly factor into the equation until he's able to bypass the Time-Skip by overpowering Hit.

Neither version suggests that Super Saiyan God has two different multipliers throughout the story. In the anime's case, it's just headcanon that fans try to rationalize because base Kefla was stronger than SSG Goku, but it's not like it's implied anywhere. If anything, it's about as unfounded as the two base theory. There are other explanations laid out for that scenario in the tournament either way.

What? I can see were you're coming from with SSJ not being ~1/10 of God forms, but SSJB being 10x SSJG when Goku couldn't even one shot FP Hit is madness.

It was made clear Base Goku vs Hit was just a warm up though. Goku was getting every hit of his dodged and countered. As a SSJ he was actually trading blows evenly with him, and Beerus even implied Goku was stronger than Hit. Not by much though, given how the timeskip was still working against SSJ Goku.

[dragon boss z]

The U6 Tournament demonstrates that Super Saiyan Blue is around ten times stronger than Super Saiyan God, not Super Saiyan. SS Goku is able to briefly hold his own against Hit by predicting his movements, but base Goku could accomplish that as well (in both versions) so raw strength doesn't directly factor into the equation until he's able to bypass the Time-Skip by overpowering Hit.

Neither version suggests that Super Saiyan God has two different multipliers throughout the story. In the anime's case, it's just headcanon that fans try to rationalize because base Kefla was stronger than SSG Goku, but it's not like it's implied anywhere. If anything, it's about as unfounded as the two base theory. There are other explanations laid out for that scenario in the tournament either way.

What? I can see were you're coming from with SSJ not being ~1/10 of God forms, but SSJB being 10x SSJG when Goku couldn't even one shot FP Hit is madness.

It was made clear Base Goku vs Hit was just a warm up though. Goku was getting every hit of his dodged and countered. As a SSJ he was actually trading blows evenly with him, and Beerus even implied Goku was stronger than Hit. Not by much though, given how the timeskip was still working against SSJ Goku.

Based off of the information I would scale it like this

ssj Goku: 1
ssj3 Goku: 8
Hit: 10
SSG Goku: 30
Hit full power: 30-35
SSB Goku: 60

[Marlowe89]

What? I can see were you're coming from with SSJ not being ~1/10 of God forms, but SSJB being 10x SSJG when Goku couldn't even one shot FP Hit is madness.

I meant that Blue is around ten times the strength of God at most. Beerus specifically asks if Goku in his Super Saiyan God form is stronger than 10% Blue Vegeta, which Whis affirms. It's not exactly ten-fold, but that's around the highest it possibly can be.

As a SSJ he was actually trading blows evenly with him, and Beerus even implied Goku was stronger than Hit. Not by much though, given how the timeskip was still working against SSJ Goku.

We don't know if Beerus' comment was referring to Goku's Super Saiyan form or his power in general. Not that it particularly matters: Whis only agreed that SSG Goku surpassed SSB Vegeta at 10%. Hit's actual power (prior to activating his full power) could have been anywhere below that, as strength-related comparisons are largely eschewed thanks to his ability unless the transformation in question is overwhelmingly strong enough to bypass the Time-Skip.

Hit's "full power mode" is easily god level, but his standard strength during the U6 Tournament is likely considerably below that.

[Bullza]

one of the below, most likely 1 or 2

1. There was a retcon after RoF
2. Piccolo got a huge plot based buff which put him above all DBZ characters
3. Special beam cannon suddenly started amplifying power thousands of folds

It could be #1 because it was only right after this they showed Base Vegeta vs. SSJ3 Gotenks and Base Goku vs. Beerus. Any recommendations would have been after that.

Couldn't be #2 either because Piccolo was about as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan who was still trying to obtain his "original" power aka the Ultimate Form from the Buu Saga. So Piccolo should only really be about as strong as Cell or Majin Vegeta perhaps.

That would leave #3 which would seem the only option. Nonsense though because if Piccolo could have done that before he could have taken out Frieza on Namek.

It really doesn't make much sense because if Piccolo could charge up a Special Beam Cannon to take out Frost in his Final Form.....then why didn't he do such a thing to take out Frieza in his First Form before?

[ZombieVito]

Well in the manga he did hold his own a bit more than he did in the anime so it wasn't quite so one sided. What you refer to seems to fit more with the manga.

I've finished rewatching the Universe 6 fights with Frost and yeah as weird as it might be, I'd say he was probably above Frieza in his Final Form during the Resurrection F Saga. Goku never bothered to transform against Frieza, he even said he didn't need to but he and Vegeta did transform for Frost. I definitely don't think he was nearly as strong as Frieza in the Tournament of Power though so I go with what Champa said.

Though I have no idea how Piccolo fared as well as he did. His Special Beam Cannon must have been really powerful because Champa's small blast didn't shatter the dome so I can see why it would probably be able to defeat Frost.

But how Piccolo was able to block Frost's attack with one hand and summon up enough power in the first place...yeah it'd be like taking down Vegito or Super Vegito, doesn't make any sense.

Piccolo got stronger by training with Gohan and someone here already explained how Piccolo use a real life defensive tactic while blocking those hits.

And why in gods name are people saying Ultimate Gohan (E88) = Ultimate Gohan (Boo arc)? That would make Lavender weaker than Namek Freeza...

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Well in the manga he did hold his own a bit more than he did in the anime so it wasn't quite so one sided. What you refer to seems to fit more with the manga.

I've finished rewatching the Universe 6 fights with Frost and yeah as weird as it might be, I'd say he was probably above Frieza in his Final Form during the Resurrection F Saga. Goku never bothered to transform against Frieza, he even said he didn't need to but he and Vegeta did transform for Frost. I definitely don't think he was nearly as strong as Frieza in the Tournament of Power though so I go with what Champa said.

Though I have no idea how Piccolo fared as well as he did. His Special Beam Cannon must have been really powerful because Champa's small blast didn't shatter the dome so I can see why it would probably be able to defeat Frost.

But how Piccolo was able to block Frost's attack with one hand and summon up enough power in the first place...yeah it'd be like taking down Vegito or Super Vegito, doesn't make any sense.

Piccolo got stronger by training with Gohan and someone here already explained how Piccolo use a real life defensive tactic while blocking those hits.

And why in gods name are people saying Ultimate Gohan (E88) = Ultimate Gohan (Boo arc)? That would make Lavender weaker than Namek Freeza...

Yeah, that was me.

Piccolo was doing EVERYTHING he could to make up for the fact that Frost, even after being beaten and tired out, was just that much stronger than him at the time. Sure, this mentality was more exaggerated in the Tournament of Power, but you can see the beginnings of this style of fight choreography in the Universe 6/7 Tournament.

[PFM18]

But how could Frost have weakened so much to the point he said he couldn't accidentally kill Piccolo yet still be above Base Vegeta who would be far above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks?

The same way that:

-Vegeta was weakened enough that Krillin was going to kill him despite Vegeta literally being a dozen times stronger at full-power. Or Gohan being able to hurt him.
-Golden Freeza was weakened enough that Base Vegeta was able to deflect his ki blasts.(dropped from being >SSB level to being that weak that Base Vegeta could deflect his ki blast and get completely dominated by SSB Vegeta when SSB Goku who is identical in power he had just dominated.)
-Limit Breaker Jiren was weakened enough that SSJ Goku and Final Form Freeza were able to overpower Jiren despite earlier him being >>>>>>>SSBKKx20. He went from being massively stronger than SSBKKx20 to being SSJ level. That says a lot about an astronomical difference in power from his max power state to his weakened statte.

Piccolo wasn't even as strong as this weakened Frost who had just been beaten down by Goku to the point of having trouble standing up. Goku STILL said he had no chance and Piccolo admitted as much. The only reason he even had a chance was because of the insane amp that SBC/Makonkosoppo provides

That's exactly what i'm talking about though. You're saying it's just an inconsistence just because we didn't get any complex explanation of how it works

That isn't at all what you were saying. That may be what you were saying now just because your "moving the goal posts" but before you were chastising me for thinking that this evidence was invalid because there was no explanation. But that wasn't at all what I was saying. If something changes for absolutely no reason whatsoever without any underlying reason at all, then it is an inconsistency and that is what is happening here.

[Bullza]

Piccolo got stronger by training with Gohan and someone here already explained how Piccolo use a real life defensive tactic while blocking those hits.

He wouldn't have got that much stronger, it was only shortly after the Resurrection F Saga and they never said that he'd powered up a lot or anything.

And why in gods name are people saying Ultimate Gohan (E88) = Ultimate Gohan (Boo arc)? That would make Lavender weaker than Namek Freeza...

Goku and Piccolo spoke about the power Gohan originally had which was his Ultimate Form from the Buu Saga and he presumably achieved it in Episode 88 before training to make it even more powerful.

Lavender could be weaker than Namek Frieza. Basil on Drugs was weaker than Good Buu and regular Basil was much weaker still.

Piccolo wasn't even as strong as this weakened Frost who had just been beaten down by Goku to the point of having trouble standing up. Goku STILL said he had no chance and Piccolo admitted as much. The only reason he even had a chance was because of the insane amp that SBC/Makonkosoppo provides.

But Vegeta still needed to transform to beat Frost. If Base Vegeta is well above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks to the point that he can't be moved, then even the tired Frost would have to be stronger than even that otherwise there'd have been no need for him to transform. So how was Piccolo, who wasn't even as strong as Good Buu, able to block all of Frost's punches with one hand and charge up a move that could defeat him?

Yet he along with the other Z Fighters supposedly couldn't take Frieza in his First Form if they all went at him together.

[PFM18]

But Vegeta still needed to transform to beat Frost. If Base Vegeta is well above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks to the point that he can't be moved, then even the tired Frost would have to be stronger than even that otherwise there'd have been no need for him to transform.

Well he did transform into SSJ but he stated that he wasn't using his full-power in his SSJ state and maybe he just deemed the extra boost from Base->Suppressed SSJ to be what he needed in order to one shot Frost across the arena? I think it is entirely possible that he could have won fairly in Base but he could have used it for the sake of one shotting Frost. But yeah, this may not be entirely clear since it was shown that in RoF Baes Vegeta>>>Tagoma>Piccolo. Or they just had Vegeta transform for dramatic affect? I don't know I don't see Vegeta transforming into SSJ to be a big loophole here but you make a good point.

So how was Piccolo, who wasn't even as strong as Good Buu,

I haven't gotten around to my DBS rewatch yet and I don't think I remember this extremely well. Why are we lead to believe this? Because Buu was regarded as being the most helpful against Freeza over Piccolo?

[dragon boss z]

I haven't gotten around to my DBS rewatch yet and I don't think I remember this extremely well. Why are we lead to believe this? Because Buu was regarded as being the most helpful against Freeza over Piccolo?

That and Buu was Goku's first choice for the tournament besides himself and Vegeta. Plus they keep writing Buu out of plots while they have Piccolo just get beat up, lol.