Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PFM18]

Vados made it clear that she was speaking on possibilities, not absolutes (hence "may") and that she was referring to the combined merits of Kefla's fusees rather than any strict power hierarchy. It also makes sense: Angels aren't omniscient, and even Whis didn't seem to be aware of how all these fighters compare in a tournament where a lot of them are deliberately conserving their strength. The point is that Kefla was potentially unmatched based on prior intel.

It is still being portrayed that Vados, at least to some extent, is has the best combination of the two on the battlefield when we know that Goku has showed everything he has against Jiren and Jiren has shown enough that he even suppressed is better than that. So unless for some reason Kefla has a way better fighting sense than Goku and Jiren for no particular reason, this still contradicts Krillin's statement that Goku>Gohan.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Vados made it clear that she was speaking on possibilities, not absolutes (hence "may") and that she was referring to the combined merits of Kefla's fusees rather than any strict power hierarchy. It also makes sense: Angels aren't omniscient, and even Whis didn't seem to be aware of how all these fighters compare in a tournament where a lot of them are deliberately conserving their strength. The point is that Kefla was potentially unmatched based on prior intel.

It is still being portrayed that Vados, at least to some extent, is has the best combination of the two on the battlefield when we know that Goku has showed everything he has against Jiren and Jiren has shown enough that he even suppressed is better than that. So unless for some reason Kefla has a way better fighting sense than Goku and Jiren for no particular reason, this still contradicts Krillin's statement that Goku>Gohan.

Well In-Universe , Krillins statement isn’t very reliable and should only be taken at face value if you take it as authors intent

[PFM18]

Vados made it clear that she was speaking on possibilities, not absolutes (hence "may") and that she was referring to the combined merits of Kefla's fusees rather than any strict power hierarchy. It also makes sense: Angels aren't omniscient, and even Whis didn't seem to be aware of how all these fighters compare in a tournament where a lot of them are deliberately conserving their strength. The point is that Kefla was potentially unmatched based on prior intel.

It is still being portrayed that Vados, at least to some extent, is has the best combination of the two on the battlefield when we know that Goku has showed everything he has against Jiren and Jiren has shown enough that he even suppressed is better than that. So unless for some reason Kefla has a way better fighting sense than Goku and Jiren for no particular reason, this still contradicts Krillin's statement that Goku>Gohan.

Well In-Universe , Krillins statement isn’t very reliable and should only be taken at face value if you take it as authors intent

I don't see why you wouldn't see this as a clear example of authorial intent being expressed. Toyotaro wanted the reader to know that Goku>Gohan even after all of this

[Marlowe89]

Goku didn't exactly bring out the utmost of his power against Jiren until Kefla was already eliminated. Even if he did, again, Vados isn't omniscient and may have thought Kefla's fighting sense was potentially good enough to surpass Goku's. That's exactly why her phrasing was deliberately uncertain; I'd agree this would almost surely be a contradiction if Vados intended to make a strong argument, but she didn't.

Anyway, I'd say that the intended hierarchy for the manga is probably something like 'Goku > Kefla = Gohan' based on the dialogue of the latest chapter.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Also Freeza did on multiple occasions in ch 37 state that he would take care of Kale or could handle her if he took her seriously. So maybe Kale really wasn't at the top tiers level and just caught them off guard with a form that kept growing and growing which threw Goku and Freeza off.

Then fusing with Caulifla put her close to CSSB level but not quite.

If I had to guess

CSSB Goku = 10

Gohan = Kefla = 9

[PFM18]

I'd agree this would almost surely be a contradiction if Vados intended to make a strong argument, but she didn't.

So we are left to assume that this dialogue means absolutely nothing? She may not be omniscient and uncertain, but then why have the dialogue if it isn't establishing where Kefla stands compared to everyone else at that particular time? What purpose would it serve?

A popular rationalization is to disregard Krillin's comment because he cannot sense God Ki but that only makes sense In-Universe

[Marlowe89]

CSSB Goku = 10

Gohan = Kefla = 9

Something like that. I mean, the whole narrative point was pre-battle hype. If Kefla is impressive enough to have Vados wonder if she might be unmatched, it already establishes her as one of the best participants to compete in the tournament. That's also why the cliffhanger makes such a big deal out of Gohan vs. Kefla; they're likely in the same tier as Goku.

Shame the actual fight was on the rushed side of things. Now there's a valid issue.

[Bullza]

Bergamo wasn't on par with base Goku. The latter overpowered him in base at the ToP when the Trio de Dangers fought Goku 3 vs 1.

Overpowered is a bit much, he only hit him a few times to knock him back. You had a whole fight scene take place before this where they were fought evenly. Goku likely does have the edge but not by that much.

[ZombieVito]

Overpowered is a bit much, he only hit him a few times to knock him back. You had a whole fight scene take place before this where they were fought evenly. Goku likely does have the edge but not by that much.

I thought the same but then I watched their first fight again and it's clear Bergamo only overpowers Goku when he absorbed his hits, growing much bigger.

[PFM18]

Overpowered is a bit much, he only hit him a few times to knock him back. You had a whole fight scene take place before this where they were fought evenly. Goku likely does have the edge but not by that much.

I thought the same but then I watched their first fight again and it's clear Bergamo only overpowers Goku when he absorbed his hits, growing much bigger.

Yeah that's my interpretation too

[Lord Beerus]

How strong would you put Ribrianne?

No matter how many times I rewatch the Tournament Of Power, I still can't figure out where she lies in strength. Or she one of those characters that relies on "gag" power, and shouldn't be taken seriously?

[dragon boss z]

How strong would you put Ribrianne?

No matter how many times I rewatch the Tournament Of Power, I still can't figure out where she lies in strength. Or she one of those characters that relies on "gag" power, and shouldn't be taken seriously?

She lost to 18 in the anime and manga, so I'll say weaker than 18.

[ZombieVito]

How strong would you put Ribrianne?

No matter how many times I rewatch the Tournament Of Power, I still can't figure out where she lies in strength. Or she one of those characters that relies on "gag" power, and shouldn't be taken seriously?

Weaker than an exhausted base Goku as proven in E118 by Zirloin.

[Bullza]

Anyway see the new Dragon Ball Heroes? Again it uses the Super versions of the characters so it's still worth bringing up.

Base Kanba actually seems to be a little stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken Vegito. People are saying Broly is powerful because he can match Super Saiyan Blue Goku in Base but he wouldn't even be nearly as strong.

Then I assume he becomes 10 times stronger turning into a Great Ape so at that point he should well over 20 times stronger than Merged Zamasu. He's gotta be stronger than Beerus and probably even Jiren.

[PFM18]

How strong would you put Ribrianne?

No matter how many times I rewatch the Tournament Of Power, I still can't figure out where she lies in strength. Or she one of those characters that relies on "gag" power, and shouldn't be taken seriously?

I think the manga did a better way of portraying this but I think her power is supposed to fluctuate depending on her emotions or how she feels about her beauty/love.

Either way her power shouldn't be taken seriously at all.

[CJStriker_CBR]

How strong would you put Ribrianne?

No matter how many times I rewatch the Tournament Of Power, I still can't figure out where she lies in strength. Or she one of those characters that relies on "gag" power, and shouldn't be taken seriously?

I agreed that Toei did not do a good job storywise in being consistent with power scaling with allot of the ToP in the anime form. So this confusion I greatly agree with, but still there’s a possibility to figure out what Ribrianne‘ level was likely.

To start she is a funny and enjoyable character which I don’t think equals to gag powers, Dragonball has always had a good sense of humor and it should keep it, so I wouldn’t take gag powers into account.

Like another poster said, I think taking the canon from the manga works in the anime as well. What that is is that her power levels are greatly based on her emotional state and level of confidence in love at the moment, which seem to be well defined in episode 111 with her struggling fight with Vegeta and her talk of losing confidence with Rozie.

This is a lot like the Green Lantern mythos within DC comics.

So by this and what I viewed was that at her base Ribrianne can give a Very good fight at SSJ-1 levels like with Vegeta in Episode 102. Also she seem to gain greater power in episode 103 with her anger at 17, what level this is is hard to say but with how impressed 17 was with Ribrianne and Ribrianne breaking his shield easily, I say she was at best SSJ-2 levels.

The Goku fight was a mess, the artist didn’t do the job by showing Goku’s levels combine with what he was saying which was nothing but praise for Ribrianne as well as others from other Universes. But with that said it still took SSJ-Blue Goku to knock her down in her Super Form and still she retained little damage, so that should greatly be taken into account as well.

Finally I think while she was Giant Ribrianne she was Strong but clearly tired in episode 117, that and the other major factor that 18 got a major Love Powerup too. Honestly leveling that is hard to tell but both ladies showed great power.

In the end I would say, a conservative estimate lowering it a bit, is that a high and true confidence Ribrianne can hit SSJ-3 easy as well as SSJ-Red too at her best like in Super and/or Giant Form, but she does knock on the SSJ-Blue beginning levels too.

[PFM18]

Anyway see the new Dragon Ball Heroes? Again it uses the Super versions of the characters so it's still worth bringing up.

Base Kanba actually seems to be a little stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken Vegito. People are saying Broly is powerful because he can match Super Saiyan Blue Goku in Base but he wouldn't even be nearly as strong.

Then I assume he becomes 10 times stronger turning into a Great Ape so at that point he should well over 20 times stronger than Merged Zamasu. He's gotta be stronger than Beerus and probably even Jiren.

I wouldn't really take the scaling in Heroes very seriously. I don't think it is even meant to be taken seriously lol. All I really take from it is that Kanba is really strong but that's kinda it

[ekrolo2]

Anime Heroes Kanba is above Blue KK Vegito so I'd say that he's quite a bit above Jiren, Beerus and UI Goku. He's very likely the strongest Saiyan character so far unless we see something crazy like Xeno Goku fusing with Super Vegeta to combine Blue and SS4.

[ankokudaishogun]

Anime Heroes Kanba is above Blue KK Vegito so I'd say that he's quite a bit above Jiren, Beerus and UI Goku. He's very likely the strongest Saiyan character so far unless we see something crazy like Xeno Goku fusing with Super Vegeta to combine Blue and SS4.

The Heroes anime is not canon to Heroes.
Only the Arcade is canon to Heroes, and there Super Saiyan Cumber was about the same level as Vegetto Blue without Kaiohken(their fight got interrupted)

[Doctor.]

Anime Heroes Kanba is above Blue KK Vegito so I'd say that he's quite a bit above Jiren, Beerus and UI Goku. He's very likely the strongest Saiyan character so far unless we see something crazy like Xeno Goku fusing with Super Vegeta to combine Blue and SS4.

Watch Broly survive the movie and beat the two fused Zenos next arc.

Then we'll get our Heroes episode with Broly vs Cumber.

Can we talk for a sec about how stupid this character is? Why is this Broly expy called the "evil Saiyan"? Aren't Saiyans supposed to be evil to begin with? I guess not, since nuDragon Ball has been trying to sweep that under the rug through their depiction of the U6 Saiyans, Minus, SSG lore, Tarble and probably the upcoming Broly backstory.