"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[batistabus]

If we ever get a Vegeta that lives up to that unreasonable expectation, that will be the end of his role in Dragon Ball.

Good. I remember a time when characters whose arcs had finished were shelved and made way for new characters with new stories to be told, instead of pointlessly being kept around, constantly retreading the same ground for the sake of appeasing to a fanbase that doesn't really know the first thing about the character they like.

I would be perfectly fine with closing Vegeta's arc, but that doesn't seem to be happening in any version of Dragon Ball. According to DBO, his rivalry with Goku will literally kill them both.

[reecehoward]

Again, i bring up the arguement of Lebron James vs his high school gym coach. I'm sure that with all the foundations his teacher laid, he has never experienced the game of basketball to the level Lebron James has in his much shorter lifespan.

Cool.

Here's another example:

Let's look at an army general. Been through many wars and many battlefields. Hasn't been on one in about 30 years. New guys are out there in way more intense and way more chaotic battles than he was because technology has progressed that much and we've gotten really good at killing each other. The army general, despite the difference in his performance vs the performance of the new blood, is still extremely valuable and is still the one giving orders.

But let's go back to your LeBron example to really hammer home what I'm saying to you now.

“He got me,” LeBron said of Tatum's dunk over him. "That f***ing Tatum boomed me."

LeBron added, “He’s so good,” repeating it four times.

LeBron then said he wanted to add Tatum to the list of players he works out with this summer.

The dunk in question.

So there we have LeBron himself, despite being widely considered the best basketball player alive right now, saying he wants to train with a guy that is generally considered inferior to him because he wants to learn.

That's literally the same case with Goku. I, and many others at many points over the last month have said that Goku is indeed stronger than Roshi, but that doesn't mean Goku can't learn anything from Roshi. In this case, Roshi just reminded him to look to his teachings to find another approach. This notion that just because Goku fought tougher people and is stronger means he absolutely can't learn anything from someone weaker than him is utter nonsense than runs counter to everything Dragonball has tried to teach.

You know, the whole "There's always more to learn" aspect of the series. It's evident in the fact that no matter how strong Goku becomes he always ends up training with a new master. Goku himself always wants to learn more.

Also, esoteric abilities are not Goku's style,

So, in other words, Roshi has a bunch of moves Goku never learned. Which is what I said. Thanks for reaffirming that. It was Roshi, after all, who he went to in order to learn the Mafuba.

So bringing up those abilities as proof of experience is null, especially being that Goku has encountered many of those abilities and some to a much higher degree.

Nonsense.

Just because I know how to fight forest fires doesn't mean I know how to fight electrical fires. Or oil fires. Or chemical fires. Etc.

Roshi has specific experiences, accumulated over centuries, that Goku doesn't. It's that simple.

Not really willing to repeat myself, but some of my thoughts were expressed on this thread

I was hoping you had newer, stronger points than those.

I think this will suffice.

Too bad that doesn't prove a thing. Vegeta is smiling while saying these words, it's way different from screaming at the top of his lungs that he will defeat Goku. The main issue is not him wanting to surpass his rival, but yes being overly obsessed with it.

I take it this is your first time seeing that panel.

Vegeta isn't smiling. He's frowning. Buy the volume and look at the page. Or zoom in. I don't know if the quality is good enough for you to see.

And you thoroughly misunderstand the context of the moment in this most recent chapter if you thought that's what he was screaming about. His anger is directed at himself for not being true to who he was. He's angry that he let himself fall so far behind trying to be something he wasn't while Goku gets better doing things the way Goku always does things.

Your examples are fairly different from mine though. Tatum is a fellow player in the same caliber of game LeBron is in. A gym coach, as in my example, never gets to experience the game at the professional level: which is my point. Roshi, throughout all of his years, has never ever come close to experiencing battle the way Goku has. The dude can't even fly, which is proof enough his experience only but goes so far.

I never said Roshi couldn't teach Goku something. Goku has literally learned and borrowed techniques from everyone around him, regardless of how physically strong the individual were. That's not the issue with Roshi in this case. The issue is people using Roshi's "experience" as a crutch to defend him knowing a technique that should be far beyond his ability AND using it on an opponent who it should have never worked on at Roshi's actual skill and physical level.

[batistabus]

Whis shown here being very hurt by Vegeta's disrespect:

[prince212]

Evolving in his own style is the best development that vegeta can have I.m.o , I’m tired of him following goku steps .
Hopefully this would lead him to new techniques, I assume he won’t surpass goku , but at least he’d go in a different route , with or without cabba
I can take a couple of arcs without him or separate adventures without goku , they should take advantage of this many universes .
Also the scope of all what’s happening is different is you read all together , some don’t realize about how connected the last two chapters are with the thematic of goku and vegeta personalities, so different and so similar, his anger to have good enemies or be the strongest sometimes makes it for them harder to see their own realities , but both of them realized the correct path to evolve .

[JazzMazz]

So people should not expect any development from Vegeta?

People should not expect Vegeta to not act like Vegeta. What you saw in this chapter was a character finally coming to terms with his preferences for the first time in a long time.

Neither version of the TOP is ideal or lives up in any way to the premise in which the arc was based on, that being an 8 way battle royale between 80 fighters. Neither did a good job of capturing the chaos a battle royale entitles, either due to them brushing past it as quickly as possible, or extending it for so long and going through each and every warrior individually.

Once again, the thing that you're trying to claim is antithetical to the chaos of a battle royale is precisely what epitomizes the chaos of a battle royale.

Play any last man standing deathmatch mode in an online multiplayer game, PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds or even Super Smash Bros. to see this in full effect. Participants are picked off constantly and extremely quickly, always forced into situations where they're facing off against more opponents than their attention spans can accommodate and sidelined faster than they can blink. That's exactly why these environments are consistently thrilling, sporadic and unforgiving. If things aren't structureless and going along at breakneck speed, especially in a much smaller arena like the Tournament of Power, it's not going to live up to that concept in any way, shape or form.

What the manga is, or at least was, doing is 120% faithful to its premise. Whether you personally like that premise is another discussion entirely.

I disagree vehemently with this for various reasons.

This isn't a video game, while you can still have an unforgiving environment where characters are constantly picked off, you also need to remember, this is a story, and picking off characters at random is going to loose its dramatic effect pretty quickly(and it did) as well as ignores the other basic tenants of storytelling, like establishing some form of effect. Also, I disagree that simply eliminating tons of characters that we haven't actually seen do anything constitutes a battle royale, for the obvious reason, that they didn't actually do anything or have any time to have any sort of effect to contribute to that feeling. You might as well have said that Black destroying humanity demonstrates a great war arc in the Goku Black arc, except there is no arc, and we don't actually see anything.

Also, I have less problem with the general direction Vegeta took this chapter character wise(it was literally the same in the anime), however, the suddenness of its execution and the actual presentation of Vegeta's motivations for the power up leaves a bad taste in my mouth, more so than the anime did(though they both did similar things).

[prince212]

The feeling of wasting characters in this arc is understandable, but also is understandable that if there’s a dinner for 5 persons and you have 5 steaks , 30 onions and 30 peppers , you are gonna grill 5 steaks and you aren’t gonna cook all the onions and peppers , just some , you can’t eat them all .
(If you are a vegetarian, change the steaks with tofu)

[JazzMazz]

The feeling of wasting characters in this arc is understandable, but also is understandable that if there’s a dinner for 5 persons and you have 5 steaks , 30 onions and 30 peppers , you are gonna grill 5 steaks and you aren’t gonna cook all the onions and peppers , just some , you can’t eat them all .
(If you are a vegetarian, change the steaks with tofu)

I get not using every single character, that's absurd, but at the same time, I think it would have done wonders for effect to contextualize at least some of the fighters, so there eliminations have some form of impact.

For example, I found Aniraza's elimination completely lacking in any sort of effect, because he literally did nothing at all. I think if Toyo wanted that elimination to have some impact, he could have shown Aniraza prior proving himself a troublesome opponent, maybe have him eliminate a few warriors, give some trouble to the protagonists from universe 7, anything really could have made that elimination more impactful, because as it stood, it wasn't contextualized at all.
(As was the case for 99% of the other universes)

[Marlowe89]

This isn't a video game

It doesn't matter if it's a video game. Those were clear-cut examples of what an actual battle royale would realistically feel like.

I could easily name fictional storytelling examples of the same thing that manage to do this effectively, but the main point I'm making is whatever standard you're trying to measure the manga against isn't reeeaally a battle royale. The idea of pitting everyone against each other doesn't by itself make a battle royale chaotic -- it's the circumstances surrounding that scenario that make it so, which obviously includes plenty of participants suddenly getting eliminated by the superior competition without notice. Otherwise, there's nothing interesting to make it stand out from an ordinary gauntlet.

as well as ignores the other basic tenants of storytelling, like establishing some form of effect

Nearly every single fighter in the tournament establishes "some form of effect" and was specifically written with purpose. Basic storytelling doesn't give background characters moments that aren't owed to them. Basic storytelling works to help these guys contribute to the narrative in a manner that feels appropriate to the role they have, which is what the manga does.

We don't need to give every random Tom, Dick and Harry some grand moment of "impact" if it isn't going to benefit the central characters of the arc. That's padding. That's bad writing.

[TKA]

I might not have read the start of this Roshi/Goku experiences part in this thread, so bare with me. But what was the original point about then?

Some people are claiming that Roshi has no right to give Goku advice because Goku surpassed him.

Others are claiming that Roshi has knowledge and experience that is very valuable. Knowledge and experiences Goku doesn't have.

[Lionel]

Good luck to Vegeta is all I can say. Ultra Instinct seems to bequeath an ample power boost to the user on top of the autonomous movement perk -- even if he somehow managed to concoct a transformation that can elevate him up to UI Goku's level then he should still find himself at a disadvantage in terms of dexterity. Granted, Jiren seemed able to hold his own against Goku despite his opponent wielding this attunement of the body's functions. So go figure. Won't surprise me if the original principle of Ultra Instinct is subverted for the purposes of a spectacle.

With Roshi, personally I'll grant that he has a more technically varied array of abilities that escape some of the conventions of the modern series like hypnosis. Dragon Ball didn't make the best of efforts to expound Roshi's know-how of the esoteric in martial arts or the vast collection of differing schools there are, however. In fact, Roshi's explanation of the Kame style being rooted in the necessity of building upon your power seems to imply that the opposite philosophy is being embraced. Mind you, this is coming from someone who would like to see someone break convention in this show for a change.

[Doctor.]

This is just a public service announcement.

The kanzenban release featured a completely new ending written and illustrated by Akira Toriyama. This new ending expanded upon the original to include two additional pages in which Goku hands down Kinto-Un to Oob, bringing the series full circle. The chapter’s final narration was also rewritten to shift the source of Earth’s safety from the Dragon Balls to that of the “incredible guys” that reside there. In addition, Toriyama’s original goodbye message has been replaced with two new panels of Vegeta declaring his ongoing aspiration to defeat Goku.

What Toriyama wrote many years after the series had ended matters just as much to Vegeta in the original run as Super does. What I'm saying is that it can contradict the original series' progression just like Super has.

[TKA]

What Toriyama wrote many years after the series had ended matters just as much to Vegeta in the original run as Super does. What I'm saying is that it can contradict the original series' progression just like Super has.

9 years after he ended the manga back in 2004.

It's his story. He's free to add or subtract whatever he wants. This is as silly as people who said George Lucas has no right to edit the Star Wars movies lol. It's their babies. They can perfect it in their eyes as they see fit. Everything has gone with the Kanzenban ending since it came out. Toyotaro, and all the new stewards of the franchise, should follow the ending Toriyama thought was best.

[Doctor.]

9 years after he ended the manga back in 2004.

It's his story. He's free to add or subtract whatever he wants. This is as silly as people who said George Lucas has no right to edit the Star Wars movies lol. It's their babies. They can perfect it in their eyes as they see fit. Everything has gone with the Kanzenban ending since it came out. Toyotaro, and all the new stewards of the franchise, should follow the ending Toriyama thought was best.

Yes, thanks for confirming that Toriyama did, in fact, write the Kanzenban ending many years after he wrote the original series, as I pointed out.

Sure, Toriyama is free to add to the ending, just like fans are free to believe that it contradicts the original series as it was originally written and published. The original series stands alone, without Toriyama. Everything he ever said about it that wasn't drawn on paper as it was being published in Weekly Shounen Jump from 1984 to 1995 is as irrelevant as what I say; if you care so much about the facts, then surely you should realize this is the truth. After all, the original series didn't go anywhere. I have the original ending on my Tankobon right here on my bookshelf.

Toyotaro, and all the new stewards of the franchise, should follow the ending Toriyama thought was best.

And damn if this isn't a dangerous way of thinking. "Successors should always follow Toriyama because it's Toriyama."

[TKA]

And damn if this isn't a dangerous way of thinking. "Successors should always follow Toriyama because it's Toriyama."

Yes, they should.

He created this and they get to play in it. The groundwork he set should always be honored. If you aren't willing to, then go create your own franchise. Like it or not, if you're working on Dragonball, Toriyama's word, his beliefs and his musings are absolute and must be adhered to. This franchise is his vision and his creation.

As a fan, however, like what you want. But just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist lol.

[ekrolo2]

And damn if this isn't a dangerous way of thinking. "Successors should always follow Toriyama because it's Toriyama."

Yes, they should.

He created this and they get to play in it. The groundwork he set should always be honored. If you aren't willing to, then go create your own franchise. Like it or not, if you're working on Dragonball, Toriyama's word, his beliefs and his musings are absolute and must be adhered to. This franchise is his vision and his creation.

As a fan, however, like what you want. But just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist lol.

It can exist all it wants, it doesn't make it good just because its the creator's vision, especially when his latest addition to said vision actively hurts things that were good from before. Minus is a very good example of this, it completely ruins a lot of what makes Goku vs Vegeta in the Saiyan arc great because... Toriyama farted out a glorified wiki summary with pictures.

[wolflonnie]

Agreed. Many books, anime, etc. have been ruined because the author has been changed, with or without his consent. A substitute can never replicate the original author.

[Doctor.]

The groundwork he set should always be honored.

Toriyama should be honored and respected as the creator of the series, but his word shouldn't be followed as gospel. This is true for all authors passing on their series to someone else, but it's especially true for someone as self-admittedly forgetful as Toriyama. The original series itself should always take precedence over whatever Toriyama says.

Besides, he hasn't been the sole vision behind Dragon Ball for a long time now. He wasn't the sole vision behind Dragon Ball once Toei started getting involved, he isn't the sole vision behind Dragon Ball now and he wasn't even the sole vision behind Dragon Ball back when he was writing at the whims of his editors, either.

As a fan, however, like what you want. But just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist lol.

I didn't say it didn't exist. I said the original version also exists, and it's arguably much more important than whatever retcons Toriyama decides to write because of the sole, immutable fact that it's the original. Treating the Kanzenban ending as if it's erasing the original from existence is what you're doing. The fact remains, to get back on-track, that the original version is more important, more widespread and doesn't come after forgetful Toriyama decides to write something DB related again 9 years after its end; and yet it doesn't depict Vegeta saying he'll surpass Goku in the final panel of the series.

[Lord Beerus]

And damn if this isn't a dangerous way of thinking. "Successors should always follow Toriyama because it's Toriyama."

Yes, they should.

He created this and they get to play in it. The groundwork he set should always be honored. If you aren't willing to, then go create your own franchise. Like it or not, if you're working on Dragonball, Toriyama's word, his beliefs and his musings are absolute and must be adhered to. This franchise is his vision and his creation.

As a fan, however, like what you want. But just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist lol.

It can exist all it wants, it doesn't make it good just because its the creator's vision, especially when his latest addition to said vision actively hurts things that were good from before. Minus is a very good example of this, it completely ruins a lot of what makes Goku vs Vegeta in the Saiyan arc great because... Toriyama farted out a glorified wiki summary with pictures.

Gotta side with Doctor. and ekrolo2 on this one. Toriyama can be very creative and imaginative, but his vision and style of scripting Dragon Ball stories is not infallible.

[reecehoward]

I might not have read the start of this Roshi/Goku experiences part in this thread, so bare with me. But what was the original point about then?

Some people are claiming that Roshi has no right to give Goku advice because Goku surpassed him.

Others are claiming that Roshi has knowledge and experience that is very valuable. Knowledge and experiences Goku doesn't have.

No one's made that claim here, as far as I'm aware in this thread. The argument, for me at least, is that Roshi shouldn't be considered more experienced than Goku just because of his age and title. Dude has been a hermit for God knows how long, his verifiable fighting experience is mostly one on one tournaments, and the toughest opponent he's faced pre-Super is King Piccolo; an opponent who's not only relatively close to him in power by comparison to Jiren, but also a foe lacked any real esoteric martial art ability. That same opponent proved how much Roshi's experience didn't matter. So now we have an opponent who is probably beyond any known numerical calculations in stats over King Piccolo, and Roshi can dodge THIS guy, because of "experience"? Again, this is the same hermit who has been alone on an island for decades, if not centuries, jerking off to softcore porn.lol My problem is that you and others are basing and assuming his "experience" off of his age and title, and not anything the story aside from DBS ch 39 has shown us.

[HeroR]

I might not have read the start of this Roshi/Goku experiences part in this thread, so bare with me. But what was the original point about then?

Some people are claiming that Roshi has no right to give Goku advice because Goku surpassed him.

Others are claiming that Roshi has knowledge and experience that is very valuable. Knowledge and experiences Goku doesn't have.

No one's made that claim here, as far as I'm aware in this thread. The argument, for me at least, is that Roshi shouldn't be considered more experienced than Goku just because of his age and title. Dude has been a hermit for God knows how long, his verifiable fighting experience is mostly one on one tournaments, and the toughest opponent he's faced pre-Super is King Piccolo; an opponent who's not only relatively close to him in power by comparison to Jiren, but also a foe lacked any real esoteric martial art ability. That same opponent proved how much Roshi's experience didn't matter. So now we have an opponent who is probably beyond any known numerical calculations in stats over King Piccolo, and Roshi can dodge THIS guy, because of "experience"? Again, this is the same hermit who has been alone on an island for decades, if not centuries, jerking off to softcore porn.lol My problem is that you and others are basing and assuming his "experience" off of his age and title, and not anything the story aside from DBS ch 39 has shown us.

That and by this logic, Goku and Jiren should not have been able to outplay Hit, who is 1000 years old. That and as been pointed out several times, Roshi said back in Dragon Ball that Goku's sills have outstripped him.