Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PFM18]

With the rumours of Gogeta appearing in the movie, he likely shouldn't be as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue Vegito right?

So how strong should an Ultra Instinct Gogeta be?

Well a lot of people believe that throughout the tournament Goku and Vegeta made enormous power gains(like ep 123 SSB Goku>1st UI omen type of power gains or something similar) throughout the tournament and that could explain why Gogeta would be stronger than SSB Vegetto. I never did buy into it but if Gogeta ends up being this strong then this "theory" could have merit.

@Miracles seems to be a big proponent on the matter.

We have no idea what the gap between the Angel's and the GoDs is, we just know they are ridiculously strong and they can utilize UI themselves so it is hard to say if characters are or aren't angel level. I would expect UI Gogeta to be angel level though

[Bergamo]

Speaking of fusion, the power of fusion is 100% arbitrary in Super. If SS2 Kefla is nearly as strong as someone with ultra instinct, then shouldn't SS2 Vegetto be equally as strong if not stronger. This then should mean that SS3 Vegetto is hypothetically stronger than UI Goku, and that SSG Vegetto is significantly above Beerus. This has horrible implications for the Future Trunks arc.

[PFM18]

Speaking of fusion, the power of fusion is 100% arbitrary in Super. If SS2 Kefla is nearly as strong as someone with ultra instinct, then shouldn't SS2 Vegetto be equally as strong if not stronger. This then should mean that SS3 Vegetto is hypothetically stronger than UI Goku, and that SSG Vegetto is significantly above Beerus. This has horrible implications for the Future Trunks arc.

I mean that can pretty much all be reconciled by assuming that Goku/Vegeta got significantly stronger from the time of the FT arc to midway through the ToP.

[Bullza]

Speaking of fusion, the power of fusion is 100% arbitrary in Super. If SS2 Kefla is nearly as strong as someone with ultra instinct, then shouldn't SS2 Vegetto be equally as strong if not stronger.

I wouldn't have thought so because Legendary Super Saiyan Kale herself was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

SSJ2 Kale + LSSJ Kale > SSJ2 Goku + SSJ2 Vegeta.

Is how I would see it. Super Saiyan 2 Kefla could be even more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Vegito actually.

[Bergamo]

Speaking of fusion, the power of fusion is 100% arbitrary in Super. If SS2 Kefla is nearly as strong as someone with ultra instinct, then shouldn't SS2 Vegetto be equally as strong if not stronger. This then should mean that SS3 Vegetto is hypothetically stronger than UI Goku, and that SSG Vegetto is significantly above Beerus. This has horrible implications for the Future Trunks arc.

I mean that can pretty much all be reconciled by assuming that Goku/Vegeta got significantly stronger from the time of the FT arc to midway through the ToP.

That's even worse, because that means that base Caulifla was way stronger than base Goku in the FT arc. It already made no sense that Cabbe could be God tier and not have even SS1, but at this point, it seems like the only reason u6 Saiyans don't completely destroy the u7 Saiyans is lack of transformations.

[Bergamo]

Speaking of fusion, the power of fusion is 100% arbitrary in Super. If SS2 Kefla is nearly as strong as someone with ultra instinct, then shouldn't SS2 Vegetto be equally as strong if not stronger.

I wouldn't have thought so because Legendary Super Saiyan Kale herself was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

SSJ2 Kale + LSSJ Kale > SSJ2 Goku + SSJ2 Vegeta.

Is how I would see it. Super Saiyan 2 Kefla could be even more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Vegito actually.

LSS Kale was weaker than SS3 Goku, Goku just didn't use SS3 because it takes too much stamina. Either way this still makes SSB Goku way stronger than Beerus.

[PFM18]

Speaking of fusion, the power of fusion is 100% arbitrary in Super. If SS2 Kefla is nearly as strong as someone with ultra instinct, then shouldn't SS2 Vegetto be equally as strong if not stronger. This then should mean that SS3 Vegetto is hypothetically stronger than UI Goku, and that SSG Vegetto is significantly above Beerus. This has horrible implications for the Future Trunks arc.

I mean that can pretty much all be reconciled by assuming that Goku/Vegeta got significantly stronger from the time of the FT arc to midway through the ToP.

That's even worse, because that means that base Caulifla was way stronger than base Goku in the FT arc. It already made no sense that Cabbe could be God tier and not have even SS1, but at this point, it seems like the only reason u6 Saiyans don't completely destroy the u7 Saiyans is lack of transformations.

I mean it isn't worse because it isn't inherently inconsistent. If you don't like how strong Caulifla/Cabba being that strong then that's cool and all but that's just your opinion and isn't anything objectively inconsistent or contradictory about it.

Either way this still makes SSB Goku way stronger than Beerus.

Uhh how exactly?

[Desassina]

For me it's like this in the manga:

Goku = Vegeta < Vegetto, because they're equal parts who have fused in a similar state and increased their level afterwards.
Caulifla < Kale = Kefla, because the latter has a fused character's strength without the peak in power of one over the other.

Vegetto > Kefla = Kale > Goku = Vegeta > Caulifla, because the top character has the blue form and the weakest only SSJ.

[Bergamo]

I mean that can pretty much all be reconciled by assuming that Goku/Vegeta got significantly stronger from the time of the FT arc to midway through the ToP.

That's even worse, because that means that base Caulifla was way stronger than base Goku in the FT arc. It already made no sense that Cabbe could be God tier and not have even SS1, but at this point, it seems like the only reason u6 Saiyans don't completely destroy the u7 Saiyans is lack of transformations.

I mean it isn't worse because it isn't inherently inconsistent. If you don't like how strong Caulifla/Cabba being that strong then that's cool and all but that's just your opinion and isn't anything objectively inconsistent or contradictory about it.

Either way this still makes SSB Goku way stronger than Beerus.

Uhh how exactly?

If Vegetto in a lesser SS form is relative to UIO Goku who is relative to Beerus, then that means SSB Vegetto is significantly stronger than Beerus. This begs the question, why didn't Goku and Vegeta just fuse to defeat Jiren.

[PFM18]

That's even worse, because that means that base Caulifla was way stronger than base Goku in the FT arc. It already made no sense that Cabbe could be God tier and not have even SS1, but at this point, it seems like the only reason u6 Saiyans don't completely destroy the u7 Saiyans is lack of transformations.

I mean it isn't worse because it isn't inherently inconsistent. If you don't like how strong Caulifla/Cabba being that strong then that's cool and all but that's just your opinion and isn't anything objectively inconsistent or contradictory about it.

Either way this still makes SSB Goku way stronger than Beerus.

Uhh how exactly?

If Vegetto in a lesser SS form is relative to UIO Goku who is relative to Beerus, then that means SSB Vegetto is significantly stronger than Beerus. This begs the question, why didn't Goku and Vegeta just fuse to defeat Jiren.

The problem is you are not distinguishing between the 2nd UI Omen and the 3rd. It is generally accepted that there's a very large gap. Beerus is relative to the 3rd and Kefla is relative to the 2nd but there is a very large gap between them, you can't just lumping them together.

[Bergamo]

I mean it isn't worse because it isn't inherently inconsistent. If you don't like how strong Caulifla/Cabba being that strong then that's cool and all but that's just your opinion and isn't anything objectively inconsistent or contradictory about it.



Uhh how exactly?

If Vegetto in a lesser SS form is relative to UIO Goku who is relative to Beerus, then that means SSB Vegetto is significantly stronger than Beerus. This begs the question, why didn't Goku and Vegeta just fuse to defeat Jiren.

The problem is you are not distinguishing between the 2nd UI Omen and the 3rd. It is generally accepted that there's a very large gap. Beerus is relative to the 3rd and Kefla is relative to the 2nd but there is a very large gap between them, you can't just lumping them together.

How is the audience supposed to know when Goku's power spikes. Is there supposed to be a way to distinguish between the strength of the different iterations of UIO.

[Bullza]

LSS Kale was weaker than SS3 Goku, Goku just didn't use SS3 because it takes too much stamina.

I wouldn't think so, when Goku turned Super Saiyan 3 there was no reaction from Jiren at all. When Kale turned into a Legendary Super Saiyan in the following episode they showed him twitch.

[PFM18]

If Vegetto in a lesser SS form is relative to UIO Goku who is relative to Beerus, then that means SSB Vegetto is significantly stronger than Beerus. This begs the question, why didn't Goku and Vegeta just fuse to defeat Jiren.

The problem is you are not distinguishing between the 2nd UI Omen and the 3rd. It is generally accepted that there's a very large gap. Beerus is relative to the 3rd and Kefla is relative to the 2nd but there is a very large gap between them, you can't just lumping them together.

How is the audience supposed to know when Goku's power spikes. Is there supposed to be a way to distinguish between the strength of the different iterations of UIO.

Well, yes. Direct explicit statements are a good start. It was stated that the 2nd Omen was way stronger than the 1st Omen.(I don't remember the exact verbatim/context) It is rational to assume that the 3rd is stronger than the 2nd unless stated otherwise. It wasn't stated otherwise, so you must assume that the mechanics are the same for 1st Omen -> 2nd Omen as they are for 2nd Omen-> 3rd Omen.

[Bergamo]

The problem is you are not distinguishing between the 2nd UI Omen and the 3rd. It is generally accepted that there's a very large gap. Beerus is relative to the 3rd and Kefla is relative to the 2nd but there is a very large gap between them, you can't just lumping them together.

How is the audience supposed to know when Goku's power spikes. Is there supposed to be a way to distinguish between the strength of the different iterations of UIO.

Well, yes. Direct explicit statements are a good start. It was stated that the 2nd Omen was way stronger than the 1st Omen.(I don't remember the exact verbatim/context) It is rational to assume that the 3rd is stronger than the 2nd unless stated otherwise. It wasn't stated otherwise, so you must assume that the mechanics are the same for 1st Omen -> 2nd Omen as they are for 2nd Omen-> 3rd Omen.

My main concern isn't that the different UIOs are different levels of strength, because that's obvious in hindsight. It's the fact that I don't really see a way to gauge how large the difference is.

[Bergamo]

LSS Kale was weaker than SS3 Goku, Goku just didn't use SS3 because it takes too much stamina.

I wouldn't think so, when Goku turned Super Saiyan 3 there was no reaction from Jiren at all. When Kale turned into a Legendary Super Saiyan in the following episode they showed him twitch.

Jiren doesn't twitch any time a blue tier character powers up, so I don't see how that is conclusive evidence. Goku deflected Kale's attack with no issue in SS3.

[PFM18]

How is the audience supposed to know when Goku's power spikes. Is there supposed to be a way to distinguish between the strength of the different iterations of UIO.

Well, yes. Direct explicit statements are a good start. It was stated that the 2nd Omen was way stronger than the 1st Omen.(I don't remember the exact verbatim/context) It is rational to assume that the 3rd is stronger than the 2nd unless stated otherwise. It wasn't stated otherwise, so you must assume that the mechanics are the same for 1st Omen -> 2nd Omen as they are for 2nd Omen-> 3rd Omen.

My main concern isn't that the different UIOs are different levels of strength, because that's obvious in hindsight. It's the fact that I don't really see a way to gauge how large the difference is.

You barely ever have a way of gauging the extent of the differences in power in this series.

We just know that it''s a big difference especially since it appears that Goku grew significantly stronger from his first bout to his 2nd bout with Jiren and gained a higher boost from this latest limit breaking unlock of Ultra Instinct Omen.

LSS Kale was weaker than SS3 Goku, Goku just didn't use SS3 because it takes too much stamina.

I wouldn't think so, when Goku turned Super Saiyan 3 there was no reaction from Jiren at all. When Kale turned into a Legendary Super Saiyan in the following episode they showed him twitch.

Jiren doesn't twitch any time a blue tier character powers up, so I don't see how that is conclusive evidence. Goku deflected Kale's attack with no issue in SS3.

The important thing is that Jiren is surprised. Jiren is surprised that Kale, who was just a compete joke, had become a relevant fighter. He didn't react to SSJ3 because he already knew that Goku was capablel of MUCH more than that from their fight before.

[Bullza]

Jiren doesn't twitch any time a blue tier character powers up, so I don't see how that is conclusive evidence. Goku deflected Kale's attack with no issue in SS3.

I'm talking about when he was meditating though, you had all these these different fighters and battles going on, Goku turns Super Saiyan 3 and there's no reaction from him at all.

Kale transforms into a Legendary Super Saiyan and it's enough to get him to twitch. Goku transforms into Ultra Instinct and he wakes up.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Jiren also didn't twitch for base kefla or ssj kefla/ssj2 kefla.

We know that base kefla > ssj2/mastered berserk kale

Anyways yeah Kale is stronger than ssj3 goku, she was able to do pretty well against ssg goku although goku had the advantage

[HeroR]

Jiren also didn't twitch for base kefla or ssj kefla/ssj2 kefla.

We know that base kefla > ssj2/mastered berserk kale

Anyways yeah Kale is stronger than ssj3 goku, she was able to do pretty well against ssg goku although goku had the advantage

Pretty much. Remember Super Saiyan 2 Kale got punched in the face by Super Saiyan God Goku and didn’t have a mark on her. She then scuffled with Super Saiyan God Goku twice. In the end, Goku didn’t even beat her directly. He took out Cali and Kale was done.

[ankokudaishogun]

I mean that can pretty much all be reconciled by assuming that Goku/Vegeta got significantly stronger from the time of the FT arc to midway through the ToP.

Which, given Goku went from having issues with Kaiohken x10 to spaming Kaiohken x20, makes sense.

Given Goku didn't even tried Kaiohken except for a short burst against Fused Zamasu, it stands to reason his strength(and therefore Vegeta's) was nearer to his vsU6 level than ToP level