"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[alakazam^]

I will say this one more time. The anime can provide useful context when discussing the manga. By your logic people shouldn't mention DBZ in any DBS thread because it isn't the topic.

Yes, it can, when it's used in that way and not solely to bash it, which is both off-topic and not creating space for a discussion.

Well, that's what off-topic means, just like the one we're doing.

[Marlowe89]

Well, if you keep repeating the same stuff, it stops having any value, right?

Wrong. If people repeat something (as most regular posters here tend to do) it means they felt it was a point worth re-emphasizing. It doesn't make their contributions any less valuable, even if I don't personally agree with them.

Argumentum ad hominem is a perfect example of something inherently devoid of any value, so maybe you should hop off my slacks for a second to consider what it is about my position that you don't agree with instead of attacking me as a poster. If not, then it means you're repeatedly willing to break the guidelines and frankly not worth addressing at all.

Besides, as I've already pointed out, this is the manga thread, not the anime one. I know, I know, you'll keep comparing them besides it being off-topic but it would be nice if your opinions didn't boil down to "the anime sucks because I said so", disguised into "basic storytelling" and stuff. Also, if you don't like me doing it... "too bad"?

I'll keep comparing them because it's entirely on-topic. I'll keep comparing them because I want to illustrate how the manga critically matches a medium it is innately related to because they're both adaptations of the same story.

Whenever I say the anime sucks, I elaborate exactly why I think the anime sucks and I do it in a way that's relevant to the manga in this thread. You're as entitled to keep complaining about me doing it as I'm legitimately entitled to do it, so uhh... have fun with that, I guess.

No, you just stressed Toriyama complained about the anime "NOT the manga", which was my point. It still stands, though, because if he was that displeased with the way Toei does things he'd probably quit after Champa's tournament. Or maybe not, who knows. What we know is that he complained, stuck around to write four arcs (always communicating with Toei) and no one is forcing him.

Yes, I stressed that Toriyama complained about the anime (and not the manga) because you were acting as if him "staying on board" somehow means something. It doesn't.

He could very well be "forced" into this if there's a contractual obligation of some kind. Your point doesn't stand precisely because we don't know the circumstances surrounding Toriyama's continued involvement or thought process, and if anything, you're only reiterating mine.

Anyway, I'm done here. You do you, man.

[Noah]

"Don't be silly, there's no such thing as character regression!"

Spoiler:

[Neon Z]

"Don't be silly, there's no such thing as character regression!"

You might as well post a picture of the Android Saga though, where once defeated by the Androids their plan was to train and become stronger to surpass the "barrier" of SSJ. Or even the Freeza battle, where he was destroying his own body in order to briefly power up with Kaioken x 20. I really don't get why people take issue with that quote specifically when it was how Dragonball handled things for years.

There are actual problems elsewhere in these recent chapters anyway.

[TKA]

"Don't be silly, there's no such thing as character regression!"

Spoiler:

"I like eating babies"

That's a pretty damning statement.

"I like eating babies. Baby gummy bears are delicious"

Not a damning statement.

See how taking something out of context is disingenuous and adds nothing?

In the panel you probably got from twitter, Goku's talking about Raditz being stronger than them, but they still have a chance because that's all he has. Compare that to Jiren who not only has overwhelming strength, but the skill to back it up too.

It's also worth noting that Roshi didn't teach him anything. Roshi just told him to remember his lessons, and then Goku figured out what he meant himself. Your image being from the early Saiyan arc is great because it shows just how long ago Goku had that mindset, and it was just before transformations and powering up became the norm to beat bad guys.

You can throw those out and have an earnest discussion, or you can go copy the panel in the Cell arc where Goku says "Power doesn't mean anything if you can't hit your opponent!" to Gohan in the Room of Space and Time and present that as your next 'gotcha'.

[Noah]

You might as well post a picture of the Android Saga though, where once defeated by the Androids their plan was to train and become stronger to surpass the "barrier" of SSJ.

Good example, also do you remember Goku showing to Gohan that it doesn't matter having a big increase in power if they couldn't hit they opponent? So yes, it was still consistent that in-battles is not always a matter of power.

It's also worth noting that Roshi didn't teach him anything. Roshi just told him to remember his lessons, and then Goku figured out what he meant himself. Your image being from the early Saiyan arc is great because it shows just how long ago Goku had that mindset, and it was just before transformations and powering up became the norm to beat bad guys.

You can throw those out and have an earnest discussion, or you can go copy the panel in the Cell arc where Goku says "Power doesn't mean anything if you can't hit your opponent!" to Gohan in the Room of Space and Time and present that as your next 'gotcha'.

You can defend this as much as you want, you won't be able to convince anyone that it's okay to regress Goku's character so he can remember the basics to suddenly unlock UI out of nowhere.

[Miracles]

^You didn't prove Goku's character was regressed. You posted an unrelatable image, which is also out of context, talking about teamwork against Radditz . Trying to compare that to Goku actually needing more power with Ultra Instinct to beat Jiren just proves how wrong and desperate you are.

[JazzMazz]

^You didn't prove Goku's character was regressed. You posted an unrelatable image, which is also out of context, talking about teamwork against Radditz . Trying to compare that to Goku actually needing more power with Ultra Instinct to beat Jiren just proves how wrong and desperate you are.

Would the Cell arc example of Goku realizing that unrestrained power isn't the answer to beating Cell in the hyperbolic time chamber be a similar prove to you?

[TKA]

You can throw those out and have an earnest discussion, or you can go copy the panel in the Cell arc where Goku says "Power doesn't mean anything if you can't hit your opponent!" to Gohan in the Room of Space and Time and present that as your next 'gotcha'.

Would the Cell arc example of Goku realizing that unrestrained power isn't the answer to beating Cell in the hyperbolic time chamber be a similar prove to you?

No need. Someone else posted it for you.

Another thing taken out of context since that whole training sequence was juxtaposed with Trunks raising his power level and getting slower. The point was that without speed, the power means nothing. Come on, guys.

[JazzMazz]

You can throw those out and have an earnest discussion, or you can go copy the panel in the Cell arc where Goku says "Power doesn't mean anything if you can't hit your opponent!" to Gohan in the Room of Space and Time and present that as your next 'gotcha'.

Would the Cell arc example of Goku realizing that unrestrained power isn't the answer to beating Cell in the hyperbolic time chamber be a similar prove to you?

No need. Someone else posted it for you.

Another thing taken out of context since that whole training sequence was juxtaposed with Trunks raising his power level and getting slower. The point was that without speed, the power means nothing. Come on, guys.

I guess we're going to completely ignore the aspect of the transformation about not being able to efficiently use ones power and being overly draining on stamina, as well as Goku giving up on Super Saiyan 3 for the exact reason that it was a unnecessarily stamina draining form, or how his immediate solution to perfecting Super Saiyan blue...

How many times does Goku need to make the same mistake, and recify that mistake until it gets old?

[Miracles]

^You didn't prove Goku's character was regressed. You posted an unrelatable image, which is also out of context, talking about teamwork against Radditz . Trying to compare that to Goku actually needing more power with Ultra Instinct to beat Jiren just proves how wrong and desperate you are.

Would the Cell arc example of Goku realizing that unrestrained power isn't the answer to beating Cell in the hyperbolic time chamber be a similar prove to you?

Goku powering up via Kaioken style, which naturally damages the body and increases all attributes on top of CSSB is a RISK [like against Vegeta and Freeza].
However, not the same stupidity as grade three sacrificing speed for power and energy consumption.

[batistabus]

Twitter has had a serious negative effect on Dragon Ball discussion. Talented artists and memers attract followers for what they're good at, and all of a sudden they have a huge platform from which to spew their crappy opinions with authority.

Yes, Goku thinking he needs more power is a MISTAKE. It is a mistake that is corrected within the same chapter. Why are we pretending Toyotaro is unaware of this? Caught up in the moment and desperate for an edge, Goku forgot his fundamentals. Kame-sen'nin reminds him to think back to his former masters, and Goku does the rest. Aside from a story beat, this is a message to the fanbase, who after all this time, still tends to over-value escalation and pure strength. Of course, the average Kanzenshuuite is well aware of this, but we're not the majority of the fan base.

[TKA]

I guess we're going to completely ignore the aspect of the transformation about not being able to efficiently use ones power and being overly draining on stamina, as well as Goku giving up on Super Saiyan 3 for the exact reason that it was a unnecessarily stamina draining form, or how his immediate solution to perfecting Super Saiyan blue...

How many times does Goku need to make the same mistake, and recify that mistake until it gets old?

To be perfectly honest, if you can't see the differences in the scenarios you outlined and last month's chapter, I really don't think I can convince you otherwise. I shouldn't have to explain to you what the differences are, but just so I can say I did if you bring this up in the future, I will:

SS3: Goku realized that it burned up too much energy to be viable in his living body. This has nothing to do with power or speed. The context was fusion is the answer and not merely powering up to a new form.

Grade 3: Goku powered up to it while Trunks was using it. Goku then explained the flaw of the form in that it sacrifices speed for power, while Trunks was slowly losing because he couldn't hit Cell. It was framed this way so that Trunks would demonstrate what Goku was explaining. The answer Goku was looking for, again, was another form.

Super Saiyan Blue: Both Goku and Vegeta came up with different ways to get around Blue's weakness. Vegeta's method of swapping between forms didn't drain stamina or damage his body to the levels Goku's method did. Goku's method, however, granted a big increase in power.

Tournament of Power: We've spent this whole arc with Goku trying to figure out how to ascend past blue. We've seen him gradually become more desperate to unlock that form because it's the only way to triumph over Jiren. He doesn't have the luxury of a year of training in the RoSaT where he can figure out the flaws with his approach, or experiment with different means (because, and let's not forget this, staying in Super Saiyan form permanently was a theory Goku formulated for him and Gohan); he needs to transform or everyone and everything he knows and cares about is gone.

This prompted him, last chapter, to force out every ounce of power his body could muster. Jiren instantly saw the flaw in this, as did Roshi, who then reminded him to look to his training. Goku then figured out what Roshi meant and then instantly implemented that hint to create a technique far more advanced than what Roshi did.

These cases are alike only in the most shallow, tangential ways, nor are they retreads. That is all.

Twitter has had a serious negative effect on Dragon Ball discussion. Talented artists and memers attract followers for what they're good at, and all of a sudden they have a huge platform from which to spew their crappy opinions with authority.

Exactly this. Everyone just wants retweets and likes, so they come up with the hottest of takes. Then, because there's this veneer of irony and memes, you can't engage in a real discussion and point out the flaws in those takes. If you do, then "you missed the joke" and get laughed at. But because nobody challenges these hot takes, they become "fact" to some people. It's an echo chamber of insincere thought.

[Doctor.]

Twitter has had a serious negative effect on Dragon Ball discussion. Talented artists and memers attract followers for what they're good at, and all of a sudden they have a huge platform from which to spew their crappy opinions with authority.

Yes, Goku thinking he needs more power is a MISTAKE. It is a mistake that is corrected within the same chapter. Why are we pretending Toyotaro is unaware of this? Caught up in the moment and desperate for an edge, Goku forgot his fundamentals. Kame-sen'nin reminds him to think back to his former masters, and Goku does the rest. Aside from a story beat, this is a message to the fanbase, who after all this time, still tends to over-value escalation and pure strength. Of course, the average Kanzenshuuite is well aware of this, but we're not the majority of the fan base.

It's a stupid mistake Goku shouldn't make. Regressing his character for the sake of forced development, that's all it is. It's the same thing that happened in F when he dropped his guard. Goku has flaws as a fighter but forgetting the basics, no matter how pressed he may be, isn't one of them unless that arc is built-up beforehand - and no, him losing to Toppo because he's "rusty" doesn't count as properly setting up his character arc because it's built on a false premise: that Goku would get rusty after a few months of inaction when he has gone years without fighting seriously and managed to be as sharp and strong as ever, if not sharper and stronger, in the original series.

We get what Toyotaro is doing, it's just extremely poor and lazy writing. There's no need to give merit to the writer just because he's doing a thing, and pretending like everyone else is just too stupid and missing the point won't win you any arguments.

[LightBing]

It's a stupid mistake Goku shouldn't make. Regressing his character for the sake of forced development, that's all it is. It's the same thing that happened in F when he dropped his guard. Goku has flaws as a fighter but forgetting the basics, no matter how pressed he may be, isn't one of them unless that arc is built-up beforehand - and no, him losing to Toppo because he's "rusty" doesn't count as properly setting up his character arc because it's built on a false premise: that Goku would get rusty after a few months of inaction when he has gone years without fighting seriously and managed to be as sharp and strong as ever, if not sharper and stronger, in the original series.

We get what Toyotaro is doing, it's just extremely poor and lazy writing. There's no need to give merit to the writer just because he's doing a thing, and pretending like everyone else is just too stupid and missing the point won't win you any arguments.

Inaction isn't the same as not fighting seriously. The precedent in the manga is that a fighter after not training loses power like did Gohan, Muten Roshi and implied other humans after they retired.
Toyotarõ did not contradict anything. You are or for some reason making Goku unique that he's excluded.

It's even arguable if it's a mistake because of the context. Goku without solutions going for the unorthodox answer, it's freaking normal.

It's not regression because Goku did it before and it was logical, he contradicts himself by using SSJ3 a flawed transformation after preaching the mastering of SSJ the previous arc.
Except the overwhelming power of SSJ3 makes the argument void therefore it actually wasn't a contradiction. Apply the same to this situation. Like it was compared to in the chapter, what Goku used was akin to Kaioken, is it dumb to try and get more power in this Dragon Ball World? Seriously?

Taking into account Goku's progression after mastering SSJ was getting 4 different transformation, one of which was probably his biggest increase ever and his effort to get it was holding hands in a circle, then searching for more power is the logical reasoning.
This also connects with forgetting the basics, if you surpass people not by skill but by getting power ups where you can oppress you opponents forgetting the basics isn't far-fetched no matter if you're Goku. Toyotarõ even has Whis tell Goku they need to start with the basics before jumping into the more advanced stuff like the later wanted to.

Good writing isn't characters being perfect beings. Well written characters should be "real humans" and to do humans do? Mistakes.

[reecehoward]

Twitter has had a serious negative effect on Dragon Ball discussion. Talented artists and memers attract followers for what they're good at, and all of a sudden they have a huge platform from which to spew their crappy opinions with authority.

Yes, Goku thinking he needs more power is a MISTAKE. It is a mistake that is corrected within the same chapter. Why are we pretending Toyotaro is unaware of this? Caught up in the moment and desperate for an edge, Goku forgot his fundamentals. Kame-sen'nin reminds him to think back to his former masters, and Goku does the rest. Aside from a story beat, this is a message to the fanbase, who after all this time, still tends to over-value escalation and pure strength. Of course, the average Kanzenshuuite is well aware of this, but we're not the majority of the fan base.

That's the thing though, Goku DOES need more power. He can't hurt Jiren, as is shown with Jiren LETTING him get all manner of attacks off and simply shrugging them off. That's what makes the scenario so stupid. The technique on it's own will give Goku the same edge against a serious Jiren as it did for Roshi.lol Idk how you are rationalizing it any other way. Goku needs power. Technique will do nothing more than make that power more effective, as shown with Kale's lack of effectiveness once her lack of technique was discovered.

[HeroR]

Twitter has had a serious negative effect on Dragon Ball discussion. Talented artists and memers attract followers for what they're good at, and all of a sudden they have a huge platform from which to spew their crappy opinions with authority.

Yes, Goku thinking he needs more power is a MISTAKE. It is a mistake that is corrected within the same chapter. Why are we pretending Toyotaro is unaware of this? Caught up in the moment and desperate for an edge, Goku forgot his fundamentals. Kame-sen'nin reminds him to think back to his former masters, and Goku does the rest. Aside from a story beat, this is a message to the fanbase, who after all this time, still tends to over-value escalation and pure strength. Of course, the average Kanzenshuuite is well aware of this, but we're not the majority of the fan base.

That's the thing though, Goku DOES need more power. He can't hurt Jiren, as is shown with Jiren LETTING him get all manner of attacks off and simply shrugging them off. That's what makes the scenario so stupid. The technique on it's own will give Goku the same edge against a serious Jiren as it did for Roshi.lol Idk how you are rationalizing it any other way. Goku needs power. Technique will do nothing more than make that power more effective, as shown with Kale's lack of effectiveness once her lack of technique was discovered.

And that’s the rub here. Outside of something like the Evil Containment Wave, you need power in Dragon Ball. Power for better or worse in this franchise is the key to victory 95% of the time. Otherwise, Roshi should have been able to go toe-to-toe with Nappa, yet Roshi said the battle with the Saiyans was beyond their scope. He didn’t even humor fighting them despite all his vast experience.

Or using Piccolo, one of the most experience fighters in Dragon Ball who’s mentally older than Roshi even before he fused with Kama. How well did Piccolo’s experience help him against Nappa, Freeza, or even Cell after he ate a couple of cities? Heck, experience Piccolo got outsmarted by a bug.

[Doctor.]

Inaction isn't the same as not fighting seriously. The precedent in the manga is that a fighter after not training loses power like did Gohan, Muten Roshi and implied other humans after they retired.
Toyotarõ did not contradict anything. You are or for some reason making Goku unique that he's excluded.

Are you saying Goku, for some reason, would stop training?

It's not regression because Goku did it before and it was logical, he contradicts himself by using SSJ3 a flawed transformation after preaching the mastering of SSJ the previous arc.

Except Goku never wanted to use Super Saiyan 3. He used it to stall for time so that Trunks could get the dragon radar, and afterwards he tries to find every possible way not to fight Boo himself directly.

Apply the same to this situation. Like it was compared to in the chapter, what Goku used was akin to Kaioken, is it dumb to try and get more power in this Dragon Ball World? Seriously?

Ignoring context. Wanting more power to close the gap is fine, neglecting everything else in favor of power, which is what Roshi accuses Goku of doing, is not. Please spot the difference.

This also connects with forgetting the basics, if you surpass people not by skill but by getting power ups where you can oppress you opponents forgetting the basics isn't far-fetched no matter if you're Goku. Toyotarõ even has Whis tell Goku they need to start with the basics before jumping into the more advanced stuff like the later wanted to.

It makes Goku look like an amateur is what it does. It makes him look like someone who doesn't learn his lesson after failing once. Calling back to all the teachings of his previous masters in an attempt to tie them together (when, in-context, they were all talking about different things) inadvertedly makes it look like Goku has been ignoring basic teachings all this time.

Good writing isn't characters being perfect beings. Well written characters should be "real humans" and to do humans do? Mistakes.

Humans learn from their mistakes. If a character keeps making the same mistake over and over again then he ceases to be credible.

[reecehoward]

Twitter has had a serious negative effect on Dragon Ball discussion. Talented artists and memers attract followers for what they're good at, and all of a sudden they have a huge platform from which to spew their crappy opinions with authority.

Yes, Goku thinking he needs more power is a MISTAKE. It is a mistake that is corrected within the same chapter. Why are we pretending Toyotaro is unaware of this? Caught up in the moment and desperate for an edge, Goku forgot his fundamentals. Kame-sen'nin reminds him to think back to his former masters, and Goku does the rest. Aside from a story beat, this is a message to the fanbase, who after all this time, still tends to over-value escalation and pure strength. Of course, the average Kanzenshuuite is well aware of this, but we're not the majority of the fan base.

That's the thing though, Goku DOES need more power. He can't hurt Jiren, as is shown with Jiren LETTING him get all manner of attacks off and simply shrugging them off. That's what makes the scenario so stupid. The technique on it's own will give Goku the same edge against a serious Jiren as it did for Roshi.lol Idk how you are rationalizing it any other way. Goku needs power. Technique will do nothing more than make that power more effective, as shown with Kale's lack of effectiveness once her lack of technique was discovered.

And that’s the rub here. Outside of something like the Evil Containment Wave, you need power in Dragon Ball. Power for better or worse in this franchise is the key to victory 95% of the time. Otherwise, Roshi should have been able to go toe-to-toe with Nappa, yet Roshi said the battle with the Saiyans was beyond their scope. He didn’t even humor fighting them despite all his vast experience.

Or using Piccolo, one of the most experience fighters in Dragon Ball who’s mentally older than Roshi even before he fused with Kama. How well did Piccolo’s experience help him against Nappa, Freeza, or even Cell after he ate a couple of cities? Heck, experience Piccolo got outsmarted by a bug.

Exactly. And personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with power being a deciding factor in a victory. Doesn't mean that skill and technique should be neglected, but it takes a story far beyond any realm of believability when you try to write it in a way that pure skill and technique can beat an overwhelming amount of raw power. The issue you then run into is, who wins when two opponents are equally skilled? It'll go right back to who has better stats. I get that the modern shonen writers see the flaw in power escalation and are trying to correct it in many ways, but skill>power isn't one that really works imo when the power gap is astronomical, especially when characters in a lot of shonen don't have much in the way of exploitable weaknesses the way their american comic book counterparts do to make it at least a little believable in context.

[LightBing]

Are you saying Goku, for some reason, would stop training?

Did you not read the first chapter of this arc? Goku stopped training to work so he could provide for his family(keep Chi-Chi happy). The point of that first chapter was to show how both Saiyans cared about their families in different ways. Goku not being present at his sons births but stopping his training because Chi-Chi asked him while Vegeta did the reverse(unfortunately most didn't get this criticizing the line of Goku not being there during the birth's as a contribution to the meme "Goku sucks as a parent".)

Except Goku never wanted to use Super Saiyan 3. He used it to stall for time so that Trunks could get the dragon radar, and afterwards he tries to find every possible way not to fight Boo himself directly.

Did he not fight Pure Boo? He avoids fighting any others forms of Boo not because of SSJ3 but because he would have been murdered. He fought Pure Boo using SSJ3 and failed, even with Vegeta's help.

Ignoring context. Wanting more power to close the gap is fine, neglecting everything else in favor of power, which is what Roshi accuses Goku of doing, is not. Please spot the difference.

No you can't ignore context. The context is what makes the scene credible, was Goku not pushed to the edge then yes the scene would be regression. You can't just ask people to ignore what makes their arguments have a point...

It makes Goku look like an amateur is what it does. It makes him look like someone who doesn't learn his lesson after failing once. Calling back to all the teachings of his previous masters in an attempt to tie them together (when, in-context, they were all talking about different things) inadvertedly makes it look like Goku has been ignoring basic teachings all this time.

The whole fight could have been better put together we didn't see Goku use many other options against Jiren: this is a flaw. However it's said Goku reached the limit, which is why he went to the last resort option. It's there for us to imagine the rest of the fight and because we know Goku we wouldn't assumed that he forgot to throw punches but that he did the best he could as Goku the freaking main character.
All Muten Roshi did was give perspective to his desperate student to do something neither he or freaking Beerus could do.

Humans learn from their mistakes. If a character keeps making the same mistake over and over again then he ceases to be credible.

It's not that straightforward. Humans don't always learn from their mistakes they can repeat the same one over and over. There's a lot between being perfect and a completer loser, Goku isn't in any of the extremes.
Is it unrealistic for someone to commit a mistake in high pressure situations? Even if they had learned not to do it before, does your mind not get clouded or affected? Is Goku supposed to be a list of traits that are inflexible when shocking with persons or situation or whatever?