LightBing wrote:Did you not read the first chapter of this arc? Goku stopped training to work so he could provide for his family(keep Chi-Chi happy). The point of that first chapter was to show how both Saiyans cared about their families in different ways. Goku not being present at his sons births but stopping his training because Chi-Chi asked him while Vegeta did the reverse(unfortunately most didn't get this criticizing the line of Goku not being there during the birth's as a contribution to the meme "Goku sucks as a parent".)
I did read the first chapter. I keep saying it's built on a false premise. Goku wouldn't stop training just because he got a job, he'd do both at the same time. We're just going back to the main point, that they're forcing flaws onto the character for the sake of developing him in a way he never needed to be developed.
Did he not fight Pure Boo? He avoids fighting any others forms of Boo not because of SSJ3 but because he would have been murdered. He fought Pure Boo using SSJ3 and failed, even with Vegeta's help.
Yes, he fought Boo with SS3 because he got prideful and overconfident, character flaws that were addressed in BoG and later in F. What's your point? Yeah, Goku used an imperfect form but it's not like he was oblivious to the form's faults. Because he wasn't.
He avoided fighting Fat Boo too and tried to find ways (Fusion) to defeat him without SS3.
No you can't ignore context. The context is what makes the scene credible, was Goku not pushed to the edge then yes the scene would be regression. You can't just ask people to ignore what makes their arguments have a point...
I was saying you were the one who was ignoring context, dude. Kaioken gives an extra power boost to close the gap, but Goku still relies on his own judgement, skill and timing to use the technique properly. Goku relying solely on power (again, what Roshi accuses him of doing, I'm not making shit up) is not the same.
The whole fight could have been better put together we didn't see Goku use many other options against Jiren: this is a flaw. However it's said Goku reached the limit, which is why he went to the last resort option. It's there for us to imagine the rest of the fight and because we know Goku we wouldn't assumed that he forgot to throw punches but that he did the best he could as Goku the freaking main character.
All Muten Roshi did was give perspective to his desperate student to do something neither he or freaking Beerus could do.
I already said I know what Toyotaro is doing. I'm just not gonna give him credit because he's attempting to do a thing like you lot are doing. The scene was extremely poorly presented and lazily written.
It's not that straightforward. Humans don't always learn from their mistakes they can repeat the same one over and over. There's a lot between being perfect and a completer loser, Goku isn't in any of the extremes.
Is it unrealistic for someone to commit a mistake in high pressure situations? Even if they had learned not to do it before, does your mind not get clouded or affected? Is Goku supposed to be a list of traits that are inflexible when shocking with persons or situation or whatever?
Stop. Dragon Ball isn't known for its realism, Goku isn't even a human being, especially not when modern DB keeps playing up his Saiyan nature as if it's his only defining feature. The purpose of a character arc in fiction is to showcase a character's flaw and hopefully have him overcome it by the time the arc is over. If a character keeps making the same mistake, then it starts getting annoying.
Also, Goku in the original series was almost always what you have described, yes. He very rarely made a bad decision in the midst of combat, Kid Boo aside (which, again, was addressed later anyway).
batistabus wrote:You're still hung up about Resurrection F? The story of Goku and his friends ended decades ago; NONE of Super is necessary. If the story is going to continue, certain things need to be reworked. Either characters get developed to a point where they no longer resemble their previous versions (Shueisha doesn't seem to be ready to let this happen), a new generation appears (DBH Victory Mission), you "punish" the characters for their "flaws" (GT), or you create new points of development. I feel like we do this "if you hate Super so much then stop torturing yourself" dance all time time, so I'll cut it off here.
So you are agreeing with me here? That they're forcing character flaws where there were none before? If so, then I don't really know why you're arguing with me. All the alternatives you've presented seem vastly preferable.
If being better than a mediocre anime is not much of a consolation prize to you, that's fine, but I prefer this low-stakes Toriyama version of Dragon Ball over nothing at all, or what we have been getting from Toei since the manga ended.
If you're settling (because this is what it is, settling; there's nothing of merit in Super that can't be found done better in the original series; at least GT had its own unique tone and atmosphere) for something that doesn't even compare to the original series, then that's your choice. But I just don't want to constantly read posts from you and others in this thread, reeking of pretentiousness, that everyone else just doesn't get what Toyotaro/Toriyama is doing and that's why they don't like it. No, we do get it, we think it's poorly presented.
You read "Super's not as good as the original series" and think "Okay. It's not trying to be, anyway," whereas I think it should try to be the best it can be. Again, if you're settling for something mediocre because you're happy to have more Toriyama Dragon Ball then more power to you. But don't make snide comments because some people have the audacity to expect writing at the very least on-par with what the original series gave us (which shouldn't be a high bar to match).
