Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PFM18]

I've been rereading the Android Saga and the power scaling is downright bad. The androids start out as equal to Vegeta, and then they are said to be much stronger, and then they are said to be equal to cell, and then they are said to be weaker Cell, and finally they are both equal to and weaker than piccolo.

The power scaling would look a little something like this.

Trunks <<18 = Vegeta< 18 =< Cell < Piccolo = 17

This obviously makes no sense.

It really makes you realize how late Z and DBS aren't that different in terms of quality.

The worst part about the scaling in the Android Arc is how Piccolo was handled. He's somehow on the same level as SSJ Goku/Vegeta after the time skip, despite the fact that Goku/Vegeta had just gained a transformation that yielded a massive power boost and it was never shown that Piccolo could have superior gains to Goku/Vegeta from training. Then, he goes into the ROSAT and stays irrelevant. Had his gains been around 50 times better than anybody else in the ROSAT just as it was during the time skip, he would have pounded Cell's face in.

And things get WAY worse in the Buu arc.

But don't tell the Super contrarians. They'll use all kinds of head canon to rationalize scaling in Z but put no effort into understanding the scaling in Super.

[Bergamo]

I've been rereading the Android Saga and the power scaling is downright bad. The androids start out as equal to Vegeta, and then they are said to be much stronger, and then they are said to be equal to cell, and then they are said to be weaker Cell, and finally they are both equal to and weaker than piccolo.

From what I recall Android 18 was always stronger than Super Saiyan Vegeta once she got serious. Her power is meant to be suppressed in comparison to Android 17.

Piccolo was meant to be as strong as Android 17 which was shown when they fought and was also said by Android 16 when he fought Cell.

Cell was weaker than Android 17 and Piccolo but he was stronger than Super Saiyan Vegeta.

Vegeta was said to be equal to 18, but he was losing because she had infinite stamina. Piccolo claimed that Cell was much stronger than the Androids and that he was much stronger than Cell, yet he still was only equal to 17. It's blatantly inconsistent.

[Bullza]

Vegeta was said to be equal to 18, but he was losing because she had infinite stamina. Piccolo claimed that Cell was much stronger than the Androids and that he was much stronger than Cell, yet he still was only equal to 17. It's blatantly inconsistent.

Oh I can see the Cell comment. He says Cell is far more powerful than the Androids but at the end of the previous chapter Cell says that soon he will surpass both Android 17 and Android 18 which would mean he wasn't as strong as them (which he wasn't).

The page after that Piccolo says Cell is not so powerful too so who knows.

Can't see anything about Vegeta and Android 18 being equal though just that he was holding his own.

[BlueBasilisk]

I've been rereading the Android Saga and the power scaling is downright bad. The androids start out as equal to Vegeta, and then they are said to be much stronger, and then they are said to be equal to cell, and then they are said to be weaker Cell, and finally they are both equal to and weaker than piccolo.

The power scaling would look a little something like this.

Trunks <<18 = Vegeta< 18 =< Cell < Piccolo = 17

This obviously makes no sense.

It really makes you realize how late Z and DBS aren't that different in terms of quality.

The worst part about the scaling in the Android Arc is how Piccolo was handled. He's somehow on the same level as SSJ Goku/Vegeta after the time skip, despite the fact that Goku/Vegeta had just gained a transformation that yielded a massive power boost and it was never shown that Piccolo could have superior gains to Goku/Vegeta from training. Then, he goes into the ROSAT and stays irrelevant. Had his gains been around 50 times better than anybody else in the ROSAT just as it was during the time skip, he would have pounded Cell's face in.

And things get WAY worse in the Buu arc.

But don't tell the Super contrarians. They'll use all kinds of head canon to rationalize scaling in Z but put no effort into understanding the scaling in Super.

You know what really burned my bacon with regards to that? Piccolo just abruptly declaring he can't keep up with the Super Saiyans after spending the whole arc keeping up with and even surpassing Super Saiyans.

[RecolorSaiyan]

With regards to episode 122 Vegeta.

1. Goku, Piccolo , Beerus and Krillin all have seen him use the final flash, it always spikes his power so there wouldn't be any surprise if the power spike was the ordinary one.

2. Piccolo says this when Vegeta's ki is exploding "Because Jiren provoked Vegeta's pride, he awakened a power within him"

Final flash is something he's always had so that can't be it. He clearly got stronger at the end of that episode from a pride/rage boost (whatever you want to call it)

[ZombieVito]

With regards to episode 122 Vegeta.

1. Goku, Piccolo , Beerus and Krillin all have seen him use the final flash, it always spikes his power so there wouldn't be any surprise if the power spike was the ordinary one.

2. Piccolo says this when Vegeta's ki is exploding "Because Jiren provoked Vegeta's pride, he awakened a power within him"

Final flash is something he's always had so that can't be it. He clearly got stronger at the end of that episode from a pride/rage boost (whatever you want to call it)

It was a limit breaking Final Flash. it wasn't a normal one.

[RecolorSaiyan]

And its headcanon to say "limit breaking" is temporary.

The whole point of the ToP was that they kept getting stronger and stronger, vegeta said as much to Belmod.

Also lets just say Goku and Vegeta didn't get any stronger in their forms but instead just achieved new ones, then that makes kefla's power even more ridiculous cause then we are saying

Kale is inferior to end Goku Black saga ssg goku and Caulifla is at best on par with end of goku black saga ssj2 goku and her being any kind of threat to UI Omen goku is ludacris considering the anime strongly implies not even FT arc vegito blue is comparable to omen goku in raw power

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I tend to also dismiss ideas of Ultra Instinct's "power" being something concrete and usable for gauging, since it inherently goes against what exactly this power does.

For example, Ultra Instinct Omen Goku's offensive capabilities were much MUCH lower than his reflexes and speed; his complete Ultra Instinct also seems to lack the raw power that the level he fights at would indicate, given how much he beat on Jiren while taking the few blows he was hit with comparatively worse than Jiren.

As well, I'm always cautious to not jump on the "clearly he/she powered up in order to accomplish this!" because announcing power-ups before considering the whole scenario is a good way to lose track of the story being told.

[Lord Beerus]

I've been rereading the Android Saga and the power scaling is downright bad. The androids start out as equal to Vegeta, and then they are said to be much stronger, and then they are said to be equal to cell, and then they are said to be weaker Cell, and finally they are both equal to and weaker than piccolo.

The power scaling would look a little something like this.

Trunks <<18 = Vegeta< 18 =< Cell < Piccolo = 17

This obviously makes no sense.

It really makes you realize how late Z and DBS aren't that different in terms of quality.

The worst part about the scaling in the Android Arc is how Piccolo was handled. He's somehow on the same level as SSJ Goku/Vegeta after the time skip, despite the fact that Goku/Vegeta had just gained a transformation that yielded a massive power boost and it was never shown that Piccolo could have superior gains to Goku/Vegeta from training. Then, he goes into the ROSAT and stays irrelevant. Had his gains been around 50 times better than anybody else in the ROSAT just as it was during the time skip, he would have pounded Cell's face in.

And things get WAY worse in the Buu arc.

But don't tell the Super contrarians. They'll use all kinds of head canon to rationalize scaling in Z but put no effort into understanding the scaling in Super.

You know what really burned my bacon with regards to that? Piccolo just abruptly declaring he can't keep up with the Super Saiyans after spending the whole arc keeping up with and even surpassing Super Saiyans.

Piccolo hitting a glass ceiling the way he did in the Cell arc was so depressing. It's made even worse by fact the show constantly depicts that Piccolo could get monster increases in strength from basic and advanced training. Not mention the unique Namekian specific power ups. Then he just abruptly stops getting stronger, accepts that he can't get stronger than the Saiyans, and that the end of Piccolo as a fighter. Super fixes this in the most ironically outrageous way possible by giving monster power ups to EVERYONE.

[BlueBasilisk]

Piccolo hitting a glass ceiling the way he did in the Cell arc was so depressing. It's made even worse by fact the showing constantly depicts that Piccolo could get monster increases in strength from basic and advanced training. Not mention the unique Namekian specific power ups. Then he just abruptly stops getting stronger, accepts that he can't stronger than the Saiyans, and that then end of Piccolo as a fighter. Super fixes this in the most ironically outrageous way possible by giving monster power ups to EVERYONE.

And it feels so arbitrary. He JUST fused with Kami and regained his true power that's been teased since Namek, and in less than half an arc he's kicked to the bench so Gohan can get pushed up into the spotlight. His fusion with Nail contributed more to the story than that. It was SO satisfying to see him dunk on Gohan. I bet he could still be competitive if he did any of the ludicrous trainin Goku and Vegeta do.

That's true for everyone, actually. Yeah Goku has an unfair advantage because of his heritage, but he also trains in ways others don't.

[PFM18]

And its headcanon to say "limit breaking" is temporary.

\

The verbatim can often be inherently temporary. For a brief moment they exert power beyond their limits.

The whole point of the ToP was that they kept getting stronger and stronger, vegeta said as much to Belmod

Well, Vegeta made a comment to Belmod and then they show a montage of everyone achieving new forms so this isn't really evidence of any power increases outside of the new forms. The actual "limit breaks" usually refer to new forms like Vegeta is referring to here.

Also lets just say Goku and Vegeta didn't get any stronger in their forms but instead just achieved new ones, then that makes kefla's power even more ridiculous cause then we are saying

There wasn't anything "ridiculous" about the strength Kefla had. If anything, the only ridiculous part was that Caulifla could match Goku in equivalent forms despite Goku being unfathomably strong compared to say his Buu arc self. Then we see that the potara boosts her power dramatically which is just standard for that technique.

That being said, there's still a fair amount of evidence that Goku and Vegeta got substantial power boosts during the tournament.

[RecolorSaiyan]

And its headcanon to say "limit breaking" is temporary.

\

The verbatim can often be inherently temporary. For a brief moment they exert power beyond their limits.

The whole point of the ToP was that they kept getting stronger and stronger, vegeta said as much to Belmod

Well, Vegeta made a comment to Belmod and then they show a montage of everyone achieving new forms so this isn't really evidence of any power increases outside of the new forms. The actual "limit breaks" usually refer to new forms like Vegeta is referring to here.

Also lets just say Goku and Vegeta didn't get any stronger in their forms but instead just achieved new ones, then that makes kefla's power even more ridiculous cause then we are saying

There wasn't anything "ridiculous" about the strength Kefla had. If anything, the only ridiculous part was that Caulifla could match Goku in equivalent forms despite Goku being unfathomably strong compared to say his Buu arc self. Then we see that the potara boosts her power dramatically which is just standard for that technique.

That being said, there's still a fair amount of evidence that Goku and Vegeta got substantial power boosts during the tournament.

Her power is ridiculous since the anime implies she's way above SSB Vegito and Corrupted Zamasu from the previous arc.

If goku hasn't made any real gains from the end of Goku Black saga to when he fought Kale and Caulifla then its a ridiculous for a fusion comprised of two way weaker fusees to be that much stronger than a Goku and Vegeta fusion.

If ssj2 kefla >=< 2nd UIO Goku then SSB Vegito should logically be atleast UI level if not above

[Lord Beerus]

Piccolo hitting a glass ceiling the way he did in the Cell arc was so depressing. It's made even worse by fact the show constantly depicts that Piccolo could get monster increases in strength from basic and advanced training. Not mention the unique Namekian specific power ups. Then he just abruptly stops getting stronger, accepts that he can't get stronger than the Saiyans, and that the end of Piccolo as a fighter. Super fixes this in the most ironically outrageous way possible by giving monster power ups to EVERYONE.

And it feels so arbitrary. He JUST fused with Kami and regained his true power that's been teased since Namek, and in less than half an arc he's kicked to the bench so Gohan can get pushed up into the spotlight. His fusion with Nail contributed more to the story than that. It was SO satisfying to see him dunk on Gohan. I bet he could still be competitive if he did any of the ludicrous trainin Goku and Vegeta do.

That's true for everyone, actually. Yeah Goku has an unfair advantage because of his heritage, but he also trains in ways others don't.

I think what happened with Piccolo on Namek was just as bad, if not worse. Beucase Piccolo become WAY stronger than Goku while training on King Kai's planet, and less time, too. Then he fights Freeza, and you think, "Aw, yeah. Piccolo is back in the saddle."

Nope.

Freeza just transforms two more times, making Piccolo's training with King Kai meaningless and his later fusion with Nail redundant.

And just to rub salt in the wound, Freeza nearly kills Piccolo, and almost renders the whole reason for the cast going to Namek in the first place meaningless. Remember, they went to Namek for the sole purpose of bringing Piccolo back to life so they could restore the Earth Dragon Balls and wish all the people who died in the Vegeta/Nappa battle back to life. If Piccolo died on Namek, it would be have been all for nothing.

[ekrolo2]

Piccolo hitting a glass ceiling the way he did in the Cell arc was so depressing. It's made even worse by fact the show constantly depicts that Piccolo could get monster increases in strength from basic and advanced training. Not mention the unique Namekian specific power ups. Then he just abruptly stops getting stronger, accepts that he can't get stronger than the Saiyans, and that the end of Piccolo as a fighter. Super fixes this in the most ironically outrageous way possible by giving monster power ups to EVERYONE.

And yet for all these monster increases, they're all worthless shit tier anyhow besides Gohan and 17.

[Lord Beerus]

Piccolo hitting a glass ceiling the way he did in the Cell arc was so depressing. It's made even worse by fact the show constantly depicts that Piccolo could get monster increases in strength from basic and advanced training. Not mention the unique Namekian specific power ups. Then he just abruptly stops getting stronger, accepts that he can't get stronger than the Saiyans, and that the end of Piccolo as a fighter. Super fixes this in the most ironically outrageous way possible by giving monster power ups to EVERYONE.

And yet for all these monster increases, they're all worthless shit tier anyhow besides Gohan and 17.

Hey, those shit tier fighters won a battle royal against 70 of some of the strongest fighters in the multiverse. That's no easy feat.

[PFM18]

Her power is ridiculous since the anime implies she's way above SSB Vegito and Corrupted Zamasu from the previous arc.

If goku hasn't made any real gains from the end of Goku Black saga to when he fought Kale and Caulifla then its a ridiculous for a fusion comprised of two way weaker fusees to be that much stronger than a Goku and Vegeta fusion.

If ssj2 kefla >=< 2nd UIO Goku then SSB Vegito should logically be atleast UI level if not above

It still isn't entirely clear if Kefla is stronger than SSB Vegetto. But no, I never said that they didn't make any real gains from the end of the FT arc to this part of the tournament. They both trained significantly between then with their Hit rematch shenanigans and Vegeta going in the ROSAT, Goku training with Whis, etc. But again, I'm not sure if they did or didn't make gains during the tournament but it certainly isn't indisputable one way or the other.

But let's say Goku and Vegeta got several fold stronger in equivalent forms than their previous iterations in the tournament, then it would be MORE ridiculous for Caulifla to be able to match a powered up Goku in equivalent forms. (Unless you think that the power gains were made after 116)

Piccolo hitting a glass ceiling the way he did in the Cell arc was so depressing. It's made even worse by fact the show constantly depicts that Piccolo could get monster increases in strength from basic and advanced training. Not mention the unique Namekian specific power ups. Then he just abruptly stops getting stronger, accepts that he can't get stronger than the Saiyans, and that the end of Piccolo as a fighter. Super fixes this in the most ironically outrageous way possible by giving monster power ups to EVERYONE.

And yet for all these monster increases, they're all worthless shit tier anyhow besides Gohan and 17.

That's how it SHOULD be. If everybody wasn't shit tier then it would diminish the significance of characters like Goku and Vegeta being really strong through their enormous amounts of training.

[ekrolo2]

That's how it SHOULD be. If everybody wasn't shit tier then it would diminish the significance of characters like Goku and Vegeta being really strong through their enormous amounts of training.

You're already diminishing it by giving ANYONE incredible strength gains by not doing anything Goku or Vegeta have done which is exactly what happened with 17 and to a marginally lesser extent Gohan, never mind everyone else.

So apparently Goku and Vegeta are retarded for doing anything they've done so far, they should just go fight poachers like 17 for a few hours and stomp Zeno. You see my point?

[Miracles]

It was a limit breaking Final Flash. it wasn't a normal one.

No, Vegeta only broke his limits after the entire fight against Jiren [SSBE]. We know one concentrating his Ki increases their battle power. That's all that happened.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It was a limit breaking Final Flash. it wasn't a normal one.

No, Vegeta only broke his limits after the entire fight against Jiren [SSBE]. We know one concentrating his Ki increases their battle power. That's all that happened.

Exactly.

He might've been able to make his Final Flash hit harder than normal, but that's par for the course with the Tournament of Power.

[PFM18]

It was a limit breaking Final Flash. it wasn't a normal one.

No, Vegeta only broke his limits after the entire fight against Jiren [SSBE]. We know one concentrating his Ki increases their battle power. That's all that happened.

Their battle power IS their ki. The term "power level" is literally just a measurement of their ki. And that doesn't actually address anything that was said prior. If Vegeta always has this sort of gain when he concentrates his ki for a Final Flash, why was this one so notable? Why was everyone surprised? Why would Piccolo literally explicitly state that this was a result of Jiren inciting his pride? Is Piccolo just dumb or something? None of this would have been true if this was just another generic Finial Flash that increases your power every time. That makes no sense, you're ignoring the context surrounding the scene and portraying it as something that it clearly isn't.

You're already diminishing it by giving ANYONE incredible strength gains by not doing anything Goku or Vegeta have done which is exactly what happened with 17 and to a marginally lesser extent Gohan, never mind everyone else.

So apparently Goku and Vegeta are retarded for doing anything they've done so far, they should just go fight poachers like 17 for a few hours and stomp Zeno. You see my point?

You say everyone has incredible strength gains and yet everyone is still "trash tier"? That would make their incredible gains not so incredible don't you think?

17 had been training for 14 years, and it was never stated that he was just fighting poachers. In the context of this series punching/kicking the air and/or meditating is seen as a perfectly viable form of training. He could have done any number of things to train FOR OVER A DECADE. His training methods are left ambiguous and there was never a precedent set for what kind of training gains we should expect from him so this contradicts nothing. Gohan's been getting massive power-ups since the character was introduced. This should surprise nobody.

Goku and Vegeta don't at all look retarded because you're not only assuming that 17 was just fighting poachers,(he wasn't) but you are also implying that the training gains are independent of the character doing the training if you think Goku and Vegeta could do the same training as 17 and receive the same gains as 17 did. We have seen throughout the series that this isn't true and the trianing gains are dependent on the character. Gohan gets outrageous gains all the time, Goku and Vegeta get crap training gains compared to other characters, Piccolo's training gains are purely plot based and inconsistent since ever, etc etc.