Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:10 am

Fanbases tend to treat things that they like seriously. I guess it's a habit or something.
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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Forte224 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:18 pm

This isn't exclusive to Dragon Ball, not even close. Anyway, I don't want to echo the other thoughts here, though I do agree with a lot of them.

But one thing I'll add is that, when people love Dragon Ball (or any franchise), or specific aspects of it (characters, arcs, soundtracks, etc) so passionately, and then it or one of those aspects gets attacked or is called trash, they feel a need to defend it as it's almost like they feel their own personal tastes/intelligence are being called into question by extension. It seems like one of those "human tendency" things.

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:09 am

sintzu wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Kuwabara wrote:So, I believe much of this sentiment comes from fans grappling with something they grew up with possibly not being as stellar as they once thought.
Accusing people of nostalgia is never a good argument to make when trying to discuss why a continuation of a series is received negatively in comparison to the original series for the sole reason that fans can (and have) revisit the original series at any point and form an opinion of it completely independent of their childhood memories.
Fans using the nostalgia argument do so to justify modern DB's bad quality instead of simply just calling it what it is. The reason the original is held up in high regard has nothing to do with nostalgia, it's a good product overall. The reason the most successful manga authors such as Kishimoto, Oda and others point to the original DB as their works' influence is because it's objectively a good product. The reason modern DB is constantly criticized is because it's not that good of a product, simple as that. That's not to say modern DB isn't enjoyable but objectively speaking, compared to the original and other shonen, it's not a good product and it will not be influencing anyone like the original did.
Just because old DB influenced a few people doesn't make it "objectively good" at all and modern DB is only being criticized by a vocal minority and you can't sit here and call it "objectively not good". Whether something influences someone or not does not factually measure quality. I think Cell arc is the shittest thing to ever come out of DB so how is me having that opinion possible then if old DB was "objectively good"?

You think modern DB doesn't hold up to other Shonen, that's fine that's your subjective opinion not an objective fact.

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:25 am

We take it seriously because its creators don't really take it seriously.

And also because we're fans and we love the different aspects of DB.
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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Cipher » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:55 am

Nothing will ever prepare you for Dragon Ball like reading Dr. Slump, and realizing that, even at Dragon Ball's most straight-facedly serious action-series moments, they share DNA.

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Doctor. » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:17 am

Cipher wrote:Nothing will ever prepare you for Dragon Ball like reading Dr. Slump, and realizing that, even at Dragon Ball's most straight-facedly serious action-series moments, they share DNA.
It also shares DNA with Lady Red.

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Hawk9211 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:25 am

Doctor. wrote:
Cipher wrote:Nothing will ever prepare you for Dragon Ball like reading Dr. Slump, and realizing that, even at Dragon Ball's most straight-facedly serious action-series moments, they share DNA.
It also shares DNA with Lady Red.
I doubt it.
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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:25 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
sintzu wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Accusing people of nostalgia is never a good argument to make when trying to discuss why a continuation of a series is received negatively in comparison to the original series for the sole reason that fans can (and have) revisit the original series at any point and form an opinion of it completely independent of their childhood memories.
Fans using the nostalgia argument do so to justify modern DB's bad quality instead of simply just calling it what it is. The reason the original is held up in high regard has nothing to do with nostalgia, it's a good product overall. The reason the most successful manga authors such as Kishimoto, Oda and others point to the original DB as their works' influence is because it's objectively a good product. The reason modern DB is constantly criticized is because it's not that good of a product, simple as that. That's not to say modern DB isn't enjoyable but objectively speaking, compared to the original and other shonen, it's not a good product and it will not be influencing anyone like the original did.
Just because old DB influenced a few people doesn't make it "objectively good" at all and modern DB is only being criticized by a vocal minority and you can't sit here and call it "objectively not good". Whether something influences someone or not does not factually measure quality. I think Cell arc is the shittest thing to ever come out of DB so how is me having that opinion possible then if old DB was "objectively good"?

You think modern DB doesn't hold up to other Shonen, that's fine that's your subjective opinion not an objective fact.
Dragon Ball has had a huge influence on numerous manga authors and helped launch the anime industry in many western countries. That is objective fact, i.e. it can be measured and quantified.

Quality however is subjective, as all art's merit or lack thereof is in the eye (or ear) of the beholder.
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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:48 am

Hawk9211 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Cipher wrote:Nothing will ever prepare you for Dragon Ball like reading Dr. Slump, and realizing that, even at Dragon Ball's most straight-facedly serious action-series moments, they share DNA.
It also shares DNA with Lady Red.
I doubt it.
Why do you doubt that? While it never gets to quite the vile level as Lady Red, early DB has a lot of sexual harassment humor. And, in my opinion, some of the stuff in DB Super edges dangerously close to Lady Red, even more so than most of the stuff in the original run.
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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:51 am

Cipher wrote:Nothing will ever prepare you for Dragon Ball like reading Dr. Slump, and realizing that, even at Dragon Ball's most straight-facedly serious action-series moments, they share DNA.
Early DB is sane in comparison to Dr. Slump :lol:
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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Kid Buu » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:08 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:And, in my opinion, some of the stuff in DB Super edges dangerously close to Lady Red, even more so than most of the stuff in the original run.
As someone who hasn't seen Super, please elaborate.
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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Cipher » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:48 pm

Doctor. wrote:It also shares DNA with Lady Red.
Going by the ending of "Lady Red," lots of people wind up sharing their DNA with Lady Red.

That's a semen joke, not a pregnancy one.

"Lady Red" sucks. So does Kame-Sennin in the Super anime.

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Doctor. » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:28 am

Cipher wrote:
Doctor. wrote:It also shares DNA with Lady Red.
Going by the ending of "Lady Red," lots of people wind up sharing their DNA with Lady Red.

That's a semen joke, not a pregnancy one.

"Lady Red" sucks. So does Kame-Sennin in the Super anime.
Sounds like a rape joke to me. You monster.

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Cipher » Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:00 am

Doctor. wrote:Sounds like a rape joke to me. You monster.
Why does everyone take gotcha moments so seriously?

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:32 am

Kid Buu wrote:
Gaffer Tape wrote:And, in my opinion, some of the stuff in DB Super edges dangerously close to Lady Red, even more so than most of the stuff in the original run.
As someone who hasn't seen Super, please elaborate.
In the original series, most of Kame Sen'nin's perverted antics went one of two ways: The girl in question (or Oolong) in question willingly showed off either to get something or (in Oolong's case) as part of a zany scheme. When that was not the case, Kame Sen'nin was punished, usually because the girl in question realized what was going on and gave him his deserved comeuppance. I'm not saying it's a great message (especially if that message is that if you have something a girl wants, you can convince her to strip for you), and there are a lot of people who don't care for it. But I've personally felt it sits right on that line of dirty humor, with the main factor being that all of recipients of Kame Sen'nin's attention had some kind of agency. They could take care of themselves and did.

In Super, there are two instances where Kame Sen'nin basically locks a victim in a room with him and chases that person around. While we don't see what really happens, each person seems genuinely frightened and upset to be there, and neither has any ability to escape said situation. Then, when he's fighting in a tournament, he basically scares a female opponent into disqualifying herself through the implication of sexual assault. I think some people have said that's not actually what he means, and she just misinterprets it that way. I'd have to watch it again to be sure (and watching Super again is not something I have any desire to do). But either way, all of those scenes left me feeling much more uncomfortable than anything I'd seen in the original series. There's just nothing funny or potentially funny there to me. There's no joke. It's just watching people get assaulted or threatened to be assaulted, and they react with understandable fear and panic. There's no punishment for bad behavior. None of the recipients are given any kind of agency of decision or power to remove themselves from the situation. It's just really, really uncomfortable.
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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:59 am

Something I generally find somewhat disingenuous about the initial question proposed, particularly when it's asked someplace like Kanzenshuu is... like, well, what did you think you were going to get?

This right here is a community forum attached to a website that dates back to 1998, whose entire purpose is to document history and facts as accurately as possible with as much context as possible. Dragon Ball is all we do.

So again I ask: what did you think you were going to get?

Simultaneous to and independent of that, I still think it's a pretty shitty question to propose because it assumes that Dragon Ball consumes the entire life of the person/people you're posing it to... and that's just not the case. Dragon Ball is what brought us together, and in the case of something like Kanzenshuu (or another forum, or another website, or another social media channel, and so forth), it's the driving force behind them continuing to talk.

This also ties in with why I think it's important for our own forum to strictly be Dragon Ball-only (or, perhaps, Toriyama-only): it's incredibly difficult to use something so focused like Dragon Ball as a start, and then expand it out to "off topic areas, come talk about everything!!!"... and have it survive the test of time.

We don't have "what are you listening to right now?" threads. We don't have "what did you do at school today?" threads. We're not equipped to moderate those kinds of topics (not experts in the field, not relevant to our lives, etc.). It's not what we do.

But that doesn't mean people don't have those things going on in their lives. This just isn't the place for it. This is our place to get together and share our deep love and appreciation for a franchise that means a lot to us. Sometimes there's criticism in there, and sometimes we don't always like every single last little element about its story or its production.

That just means we are in fact real people, and get a chance to show it through the outlet of Dragon Ball fandom. That's something really special.
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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Kid Buu » Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:52 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Kid Buu wrote:
Gaffer Tape wrote:And, in my opinion, some of the stuff in DB Super edges dangerously close to Lady Red, even more so than most of the stuff in the original run.
As someone who hasn't seen Super, please elaborate.
In the original series, most of Kame Sen'nin's perverted antics went one of two ways: The girl in question (or Oolong) in question willingly showed off either to get something or (in Oolong's case) as part of a zany scheme. When that was not the case, Kame Sen'nin was punished, usually because the girl in question realized what was going on and gave him his deserved comeuppance. I'm not saying it's a great message (especially if that message is that if you have something a girl wants, you can convince her to strip for you), and there are a lot of people who don't care for it. But I've personally felt it sits right on that line of dirty humor, with the main factor being that all of recipients of Kame Sen'nin's attention had some kind of agency. They could take care of themselves and did.

In Super, there are two instances where Kame Sen'nin basically locks a victim in a room with him and chases that person around. While we don't see what really happens, each person seems genuinely frightened and upset to be there, and neither has any ability to escape said situation. Then, when he's fighting in a tournament, he basically scares a female opponent into disqualifying herself through the implication of sexual assault. I think some people have said that's not actually what he means, and she just misinterprets it that way. I'd have to watch it again to be sure (and watching Super again is not something I have any desire to do). But either way, all of those scenes left me feeling much more uncomfortable than anything I'd seen in the original series. There's just nothing funny or potentially funny there to me. There's no joke. It's just watching people get assaulted or threatened to be assaulted, and they react with understandable fear and panic. There's no punishment for bad behavior. None of the recipients are given any kind of agency of decision or power to remove themselves from the situation. It's just really, really uncomfortable.
Oh damn. Initially thought your comparison of Super to Lady Red was a bold one but after reading that, I don't disagree.

As for the original series. I admit that as a kid I found the Roshi and Oolong scenes hilarious, but once you grow older and your views on society mature, it definitely makes me feel uncomfortable. It's a common trait I've seen in a lot Japanese kids cartoon (i.e Happosai from Ranma 1/2) and definitely hurt my enjoyment of the medium. I'll agree that, at least in the original series, it tries to portray Roshi and Oolong's actions as immoral and they usually fail/get punished for it. If that isn't the case of Super, I think that'll damage my views on the writers.
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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:52 pm

Kid Buu wrote:As for the original series. I admit that as a kid I found the Roshi and Oolong scenes hilarious, but once you grow older and your views on society mature, it definitely makes me feel uncomfortable. It's a common trait I've seen in a lot Japanese kids cartoon (i.e Happosai from Ranma 1/2) and definitely hurt my enjoyment of the medium. I'll agree that, at least in the original series, it tries to portray Roshi and Oolong's actions as immoral and they usually fail/get punished for it. If that isn't the case of Super, I think that'll damage my views on the writers.
Oh, definitely. After those events in Super happened, I had to go back and re-evaluate my opinions on what had come before. I was afraid I was looking at these new scenes with my adult perspective while allowing the previous scenes to get a pass by filtering them through my adolescent perspective. I do still think there's a distinct difference, but I'd be lying if I said I view even those older scenes with a bit more skepticism and wariness than I once did. While I do think there is a proper context for any humor, even those of an edgier variety, I can't deny that antics like that, very prevalent in Japan, and very prevalent in children's works, do help normalize such behavior, so it is seen as harmless fun rather than the real, serious problem that it is. In fact, one could easily argue that that makes the original DB scenes even more dangerous and problematic than the Super ones. In the world of Dragon Ball, no harm is done. Blooma happily hangs out with the man who would grope her at a moment's notice. There's no trauma of any kind. Just a little bit of harmless slapstick and fanservice. But it does surprise me, that in this day and age, where modern Dragon Ball has watered down a lot of the sex and violence of the old days, someone would look at it and go, "You know, those old gags were funny. But what they really need to be hilarious in the 21st century... is to make him even more of a sexual predator!"
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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by PFM18 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:32 pm

Kuwabara wrote:So, I believe much of this sentiment comes from fans grappling with something they grew up with possibly not being as stellar as they once thought...
I don't know how this, or some variant of this, can objectively be denied to be prevalent in this fan base. You can argue whether it is nostalgia based or not, but there's clearly a bias against Super. I don't really see how you can reasonably contend that this isn't the case to be quite frank with you.

Considering that, the criticism towards Super is almost always just as applicable, if not more applicable to the original series, and people's propensity to avoid giving Super any credit at all costs, there's clearly a bias. They will rip Super for something and then turn around and pretend that the same damn thing wasn't done at a similar rate in the original series. I'm not entirely interested in trying to parse out the exact reason for this bias, be it nostalgia or otherwise, but It very clearly exists.

Especially since the same studio is animating it, and the over-arching story is being written by the same guy as the original series. It has somehow magically become magnitudes worse and the only reason people can really come up with is that the show isn't adapting a manga when it is being written. I shouldn't have to explain why it is hard to believe that this difference could account for such a supposedly large rift in the quality between the original and the new.
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Baggie_Saiyan wrote: Just because old DB influenced a few people doesn't make it "objectively good" at all and modern DB is only being criticized by a vocal minority and you can't sit here and call it "objectively not good". Whether something influences someone or not does not factually measure quality. I think Cell arc is the shittest thing to ever come out of DB so how is me having that opinion possible then if old DB was "objectively good"?

You think modern DB doesn't hold up to other Shonen, that's fine that's your subjective opinion not an objective fact.
Well said. This sentiment that; "the original series popularized Dragon Ball, therefore it is objectively good/better!" is completely irrational. Especially when it is used as justification to present their opinion as a fact.

Modern DB is definitely being criticized by a vocal minority and their arguments almost always center around criticizing Super for things that also exist in the original series to a similar degree.

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Re: Why Does everyone Take Dragon Ball So Seriously?

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:01 pm

PFM18 wrote:They will rip Super for something and then turn around and pretend that the same damn thing wasn't done at a similar rate in the original series.
This is the thing that I just don't understand. I read all the same conversations here that you do. I literally run the place.

I don't exactly have this stuff quantified on a user-by-user, word-for-word, point-for-point basis, but I see just as loud explanations of one point as I do for the exact opposite. All the time.

Different people like different things for different reasons, these reasons may in fact change over time, these people are going to and are encouraged to express themselves, and all we ask is that they do so here in line with our community guidelines.

Please do not make up collective boogeymen to argue against. Who is this specific person citing a very specific example of some very specific writing technique in one particular media as a dislike and simultaneously citing the same, exactly, specific aspect in a different media as a positive? Have they explained themselves? Have you taken the time to hear them out? Like, honestly and truly taken the time and given thought to it? Was their explanation reasonable and thoughtful and in line with our community guidelines? And if not, are they even therefore a member anymore?
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