"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[reecehoward]

Man, I wish I could pin this post. I've only been here a few months, and mostly this has been my experience here at least on this thread. Sadly, since the anime was brought up, I'm willing to bet that if I post my concerns and critique of the anime I'm positive my opinions wouldn't be treated that way. It's a general thing to say, but as I've experienced all over the internet at this point; it's ok to criticize the anime, but it's taboo to give it to the manga. This fanbase can be...odd sometimes. I'm still gonna post my concerns of it here though, regardless of those who treat my issues with the manga as if I'm wrong for seeing AND stating them.
PS - Roshi vs Jiren is STILL absolute bullshit, as well as all the characters in the ToP that's been thrown aside with out even a single punch thrown.

People on Kanzenshuu treat the DBS manga like its the holy grail just because Toriyama is allegedly more involved with it than the DBS anime. They make all sorts of rationalizations and double standards to defend Toyo's manga, even when it does the exact same shit as the anime version smh. It makes no sense.

I personally like the manga more because I feel that despite Toyotaro's bad storytelling decisions that me makes sometimes, there's still a better sense of coherence that allows me to get invested more that with the anime. In the anime, Cabbe and Caulifla are God-Tier in base, and Goku uses SSB against everyone.

And that's perfectly fine if you feel that way. The problem is the double standard when it comes to pointing out AND acknowledging that many of these flaws are present in the manga or are the at the opposite end of the same spectrum.

Ssb is barely usable in the manga, and they have just now managed to "complete" it and it's already become obsolete when they figure it out.lol Cabba and Caulifla are God Tier and base, and you still wouldn't see them dodging Jiren.lol Roshi isn't even God tier and he is able to do so.

This manga version of the ToP is even less coherent than its anime counterpart, which a lot of people didn't think was possible. This alone is why so many fans are suddenly turned off by the manga. I, being that I never followed the manga hype train, always saw the issues with the manga. People only see them now because they are more glaring and in your face due to the pacing of the currebt arc.

[Rakurai]

I said that once and I did, in fact, quit reading the manga for a few months before returning once the anime ended. Everyone's tone in this thread could use some work, mine included yes, but that's not gonna happen as long as some people keep acting as if the people who post legitimate criticisms are just retarded, and keep making not-so-subtle insults at their expense every other post while circlejerking over how they're the only ones who "get" it. The pretense of "objectivity" and "civility" doesn't hide what's in plain sight.

Is this what the manga thread has really derailed to while I've been gone from it?

There are the critics and the supporters. People have their own viewpoints about the manga's approach. But this isn't the type of behavior I'd expect from either side. Although it's clear that it's hard to budge the critics and the supporters from their stance at this point.

[reecehoward]

I said that once and I did, in fact, quit reading the manga for a few months before returning once the anime ended. Everyone's tone in this thread could use some work, mine included yes, but that's not gonna happen as long as some people keep acting as if the people who post legitimate criticisms are just retarded, and keep making not-so-subtle insults at their expense every other post while circlejerking over how they're the only ones who "get" it. The pretense of "objectivity" and "civility" doesn't hide what's in plain sight.

Is this what the manga thread has really derailed to while I've been gone from it?

There are the critics and the supporters. People have their own viewpoints about the manga's approach. But this isn't the type of behavior I'd expect from either side. Although it's clear that it's hard to budge the critics and the supporters from their stance at this point.

It's not about budging the other though. It's that one side literally treats differing opinions like they don't have merit or are uneducated.

[Rakurai]

I said that once and I did, in fact, quit reading the manga for a few months before returning once the anime ended. Everyone's tone in this thread could use some work, mine included yes, but that's not gonna happen as long as some people keep acting as if the people who post legitimate criticisms are just retarded, and keep making not-so-subtle insults at their expense every other post while circlejerking over how they're the only ones who "get" it. The pretense of "objectivity" and "civility" doesn't hide what's in plain sight.

Is this what the manga thread has really derailed to while I've been gone from it?

There are the critics and the supporters. People have their own viewpoints about the manga's approach. But this isn't the type of behavior I'd expect from either side. Although it's clear that it's hard to budge the critics and the supporters from their stance at this point.

It's not about budging the other though. It's that one side literally treats differing opinions like they don't have merit or are uneducated.

I've been reading some of the comments here. It's on both sides. I mean, this is pretty condescending and snidy:

I'm at a complete loss at how anyone can prefer the manga over the anime at this point. Not only did Toyotaro complete ruined the Black arc but he completely drops the ball in the already flawed ToP arc.

Good luck trying to get fans to realize how poorly written the "Future Trunks" arc was in the manga.lol This current arc doesn't surprise me, as I saw the flaws since the U6 tournament. I never was on the manga is better bandwagon. Toyo has a lot of growing to do as a writer and an artist.

[Bergamo]

People on Kanzenshuu treat the DBS manga like its the holy grail just because Toriyama is allegedly more involved with it than the DBS anime. They make all sorts of rationalizations and double standards to defend Toyo's manga, even when it does the exact same shit as the anime version smh. It makes no sense.

I personally like the manga more because I feel that despite Toyotaro's bad storytelling decisions that me makes sometimes, there's still a better sense of coherence that allows me to get invested more that with the anime. In the anime, Cabbe and Caulifla are God-Tier in base, and Goku uses SSB against everyone.

And that's perfectly fine if you feel that way. The problem is the double standard when it comes to pointing out AND acknowledging that many of these flaws are present in the manga or are the at the opposite end of the same spectrum.

Ssb is barely usable in the manga, and they have just now managed to "complete" it and it's already become obsolete when they figure it out.lol Cabba and Caulifla are God Tier and base, and you still wouldn't see them dodging Jiren.lol Roshi isn't even God tier and he is able to do so.

This manga version of the ToP is even less coherent than its anime counterpart, which a lot of people didn't think was possible. This alone is why so many fans are suddenly turned off by the manga. I, being that I never followed the manga hype train, always saw the issues with the manga. People only see them now because they are more glaring and in your face due to the pacing of the currebt arc.

1. You can't complain about something in the DBS manga without complaining about the same thing in DBZ. Goku gets SS, a volume later SS Vegeta gets beat up by a robot teenager. Gohan gets SS2, a few volumes later Goku has SS3.

2. I admit that Roahi dodging Jiren was dumb, but it's still clear that Roshi is super weak, whereas God tier Cabbe is nonsense.

[reecehoward]

Is this what the manga thread has really derailed to while I've been gone from it?

There are the critics and the supporters. People have their own viewpoints about the manga's approach. But this isn't the type of behavior I'd expect from either side. Although it's clear that it's hard to budge the critics and the supporters from their stance at this point.

It's not about budging the other though. It's that one side literally treats differing opinions like they don't have merit or are uneducated.

I've been reading some of the comments here. It's on both sides. I mean, this is pretty condescending and snidy:

I'm at a complete loss at how anyone can prefer the manga over the anime at this point. Not only did Toyotaro complete ruined the Black arc but he completely drops the ball in the already flawed ToP arc.

Good luck trying to get fans to realize how poorly written the "Future Trunks" arc was in the manga.lol This current arc doesn't surprise me, as I saw the flaws since the U6 tournament. I never was on the manga is better bandwagon. Toyo has a lot of growing to do as a writer and an artist.

How so? It's literally saying how one side won't even try to see the issues in that arc. I was basically giving him a heads up that it's even more of an arduous task voicing the flaws in that arc than the current one, as that arc is largely considered by many(especially here) to be superior to it's anime counterpart. Nothing about that is talking down on anyone's opinion.

[reecehoward]

I personally like the manga more because I feel that despite Toyotaro's bad storytelling decisions that me makes sometimes, there's still a better sense of coherence that allows me to get invested more that with the anime. In the anime, Cabbe and Caulifla are God-Tier in base, and Goku uses SSB against everyone.

And that's perfectly fine if you feel that way. The problem is the double standard when it comes to pointing out AND acknowledging that many of these flaws are present in the manga or are the at the opposite end of the same spectrum.

Ssb is barely usable in the manga, and they have just now managed to "complete" it and it's already become obsolete when they figure it out.lol Cabba and Caulifla are God Tier and base, and you still wouldn't see them dodging Jiren.lol Roshi isn't even God tier and he is able to do so.

This manga version of the ToP is even less coherent than its anime counterpart, which a lot of people didn't think was possible. This alone is why so many fans are suddenly turned off by the manga. I, being that I never followed the manga hype train, always saw the issues with the manga. People only see them now because they are more glaring and in your face due to the pacing of the currebt arc.

1. You can't complain about something in the DBS manga without complaining about the same thing in DBZ. Goku gets SS, a volume later SS Vegeta gets beat up by a robot teenager. Gohan gets SS2, a few volumes later Goku has SS3.

2. I admit that Roahi dodging Jiren was dumb, but it's still clear that Roshi is super weak, whereas God tier Cabbe is nonsense.

1. Ssj was usable since day one. Ssj2 was usable since day one. Ssj3 is were it went full on useless, which I actually did have a problem with because I love that form. I figured someone would try to make a false equivalence. My arguement was about it even being usable in the first place before it became obsolete. Ssb wasn't even usable for more than a few moments, much like Ssj3, and when they finally made it somewhat usable, it was already useless.

2. Both are nonsense. That's where your bias shows.lol

[Rakurai]

How so? It's literally saying how one side won't even try to see the issues in that arc. I was basically giving him a heads up that it's even more of an arduous task voicing the flaws in that arc than the current one, as that arc is largely considered by many(especially here) to be superior to it's anime counterpart. Nothing about that is talking down on anyone's opinion.

How so? Let's see:

1. One user can't accept the idea of diversity, that there are ppl who like the manga for reasons already explained elsewhere on this thread.

2. You say "poorly written" as if it's supposed to be an obvious piece of truth. The truth is some ppl enjoyed it and think it was well written. I myself enjoyed it and found the narrative compelling.

3. Your statement directed at us who can't realize how poorly written it is reveals your narrow-minded capacity to see it in anything but your way. It's not an argument, it's enabling flaming, and it's completely unnecessary.

Most users here aren't stupid. Toyotaro isn't stupid. If those users see and appreciate what angle he's trying to go for here, great. If not, that's fine too, it's not perfect. There's bound to be argument as to what he was attempting to convey or failed to, which is normal for a fandom like DB. But to say that one side has been heavily discriminating the other side just seems wrong.

[reecehoward]

How so? It's literally saying how one side won't even try to see the issues in that arc. I was basically giving him a heads up that it's even more of an arduous task voicing the flaws in that arc than the current one, as that arc is largely considered by many(especially here) to be superior to it's anime counterpart. Nothing about that is talking down on anyone's opinion.

How so? Let's see:

1. One user can't accept the idea of diversity, that there are ppl who like the manga for reasons already explained elsewhere on this thread.

2. You say "poorly written" as if it's supposed to be an obvious piece of truth. The truth is some ppl enjoyed it and think it was well written. I myself enjoyed it and found the narrative compelling.

3. Your statement directed at us who can't realize how poorly written it is reveals your narrow-minded capacity to see it in anything but your way. It's not an argument, it's enabling flaming, and it's completely unnecessary.

Most users here aren't stupid. Toyotaro isn't stupid. If those users see and appreciate what angle he's trying to go for here, great. If not, that's fine too, it's not perfect. There's bound to be argument as to what he was attempting to convey or failed to, which is normal for a fandom like DB. But to say that one side has been heavily discriminating the other side just seems wrong.

1.I have zero issue with people liking the manga, at all. I have a problem with people pretending it's not flawed and this ridiculous double standard surrounding the manga's flaws, especially in juxtaposition to the anime's. Someone already pointed out how many of the same flaws that most of us were up in arms about in the anime somehow gets a pass AND in some cases even praised even if the execution wasn't much different. How can THAT create a healthy community?

2. If you feel it's wrong for me to say that about the manga, why don't or haven't you pointed that out about everyone in this very thread who had that opinion about the anime, especially here when the anime SHOULD be irrelevant? There's that double standard right there.

3. The fact that you singled me out on this matter for my differing opinion shows YOUR narrow-mindedness. Show that same vitriol for those who share your opinions that actively belittle those who don't agree and you might have a case.

Never implied most users were stupid or anything of the sort. I'm saying the same thing that you are saying; most aren't going to come off of there stance. We come here to discuss and exchange those ideas. Nothing wrong with voicing your opinions. I've noticed however, and it was brought up by a couple of other users within the last few pages, that there are quite a few who are very condescending and pretentious in their stance, as if you don't know the lore of the series or understand it's concepts if you don't agree with them.

[TKA]

This idea of "sides" is infantile. For the umpteenth time, this isn't team sports.

When the manga falters, I call out the manga. Comparatively, when the anime faltered I said nothing and I didn't care to say anything either (go on and check my post history to see if I've ever posted in an anime thread if you wish). I've realized it's simply because I wasn't invested in the anime, while I'm fully invested in the manga. That didn't happen because I was given a T-shirt that says "Dragonball Super (manga)" and raised to believe that it's the best. It happened because while the anime fluctuated in quality every week, was incoherent logic-wise, and seemed to not care about anything, the manga was telling me a consistent and clear story.

I can't even get my friends who watch Toonami with me every Saturday night to sit through Super's anime. They'd rather play a few rounds of Magic: The Gathering, or change the channel or something. The only other shows we skip are Naruto Shippuden, Boruto and Pop Team Epic. No Dragonball show should be in the same group as those shows. The level of competence in the anime is just so abysmal when compared to literally any other anime (by a non-Toei group) or the standards already set by the original.

[Bergamo]

And that's perfectly fine if you feel that way. The problem is the double standard when it comes to pointing out AND acknowledging that many of these flaws are present in the manga or are the at the opposite end of the same spectrum.

Ssb is barely usable in the manga, and they have just now managed to "complete" it and it's already become obsolete when they figure it out.lol Cabba and Caulifla are God Tier and base, and you still wouldn't see them dodging Jiren.lol Roshi isn't even God tier and he is able to do so.

This manga version of the ToP is even less coherent than its anime counterpart, which a lot of people didn't think was possible. This alone is why so many fans are suddenly turned off by the manga. I, being that I never followed the manga hype train, always saw the issues with the manga. People only see them now because they are more glaring and in your face due to the pacing of the currebt arc.

1. You can't complain about something in the DBS manga without complaining about the same thing in DBZ. Goku gets SS, a volume later SS Vegeta gets beat up by a robot teenager. Gohan gets SS2, a few volumes later Goku has SS3.

2. I admit that Roahi dodging Jiren was dumb, but it's still clear that Roshi is super weak, whereas God tier Cabbe is nonsense.

1. Ssj was usable since day one. Ssj2 was usable since day one. Ssj3 is were it went full on useless, which I actually did have a problem with because I love that form. I figured someone would try to make a false equivalence. My arguement was about it even being usable in the first place before it became obsolete. Ssb wasn't even usable for more than a few moments, much like Ssj3, and when they finally made it somewhat usable, it was already useless.

2. Both are nonsense. That's where your bias shows.lol

1. Goku couldn't use SS1 at will until after training for a year on Yardrat. He finally gains the ability to transform intentionally and then the androids show up a bit later. This is the status quo.

2. That's not bias, that's preference. I find one mistake less egregious than the other. Is that wrong?

[reecehoward]

1. You can't complain about something in the DBS manga without complaining about the same thing in DBZ. Goku gets SS, a volume later SS Vegeta gets beat up by a robot teenager. Gohan gets SS2, a few volumes later Goku has SS3.

2. I admit that Roahi dodging Jiren was dumb, but it's still clear that Roshi is super weak, whereas God tier Cabbe is nonsense.

1. Ssj was usable since day one. Ssj2 was usable since day one. Ssj3 is were it went full on useless, which I actually did have a problem with because I love that form. I figured someone would try to make a false equivalence. My arguement was about it even being usable in the first place before it became obsolete. Ssb wasn't even usable for more than a few moments, much like Ssj3, and when they finally made it somewhat usable, it was already useless.

2. Both are nonsense. That's where your bias shows.lol

1. Goku couldn't use SS1 at will until after training for a year on Yardrat. He finally gains the ability to transform intentionally and then the androids show up a bit later. This is the status quo.

2. That's not bias, that's preference. I find one mistake less egregious than the other. Is that wrong?

1. Goku used Ssj twice in succession during his fight with Frieza with no ill effects, if memory serves me right. When I say usable, I mean he could fight in it and get something done. He also gained the ability to do it at will before it was rendered obsolete as Trunks came in and killed off BOTH Frieza and King Cold with little effort, as well as Vegeta killing off Android 19. These are several fights and the weakness of the form was never brought up. Ssj was, again, usable. The manga Ssb, in the first arc that it is featured in, already shows us that it has serious issues. Vegeta, just turning it on twice loses 90% of of his power?! Then in the next arc they can't even stay in it for long, even after Goku "completes" it he suffers backlash. That's 3 whole problems that basically renders ssb kind of useless in any prolonged fight, add a 4th one now that it doesn't yield enough power to beat Jiren(which isn't really a flaw but just shows that ut is indeed obsolete without a good showing).

2. I suppose.

[Rakurai]

1.I have zero issue with people liking the manga, at all. I have a problem with people pretending it's not flawed and this ridiculous double standard surrounding the manga's flaws, especially in juxtaposition to the anime's. Someone already pointed out how many of the same flaws that most of us were up in arms about in the anime somehow gets a pass AND in some cases even praised even if the execution wasn't much different. How can THAT create a healthy community?

2. If you feel it's wrong for me to say that about the manga, why don't or haven't you pointed that out about everyone in this very thread who had that opinion about the anime, especially here when the anime SHOULD be irrelevant? There's that double standard right there.

3. The fact that you singled me out on this matter for my differing opinion shows YOUR narrow-mindedness. Show that same vitriol for those who share your opinions that actively belittle those who don't agree and you might have a case.

Never implied most users were stupid or anything of the sort. I'm saying the same thing that you are saying; most aren't going to come off of there stance. We come here to discuss and exchange those ideas. Nothing wrong with voicing your opinions. I've noticed however, and it was brought up by a couple of other users within the last few pages, that there are quite a few who are very condescending and pretentious in their stance, as if you don't know the lore of the series or understand it's concepts if you don't agree with them.

1. That's not the feeling that was conveyed in the original comment. It was an isolated (i.e. not responding to anyone) opinionated piece that was written like this is supposed to be truth. It was simply bait.

2.Objectively speaking, there is no right or wrong in literature. There is only what people prefer to read for different reasons. Your comment sounded downright condescending and snidy. That's all I'm saying.

3. I singled you out because you responded back to me. You want to play victim but are also part of the problem. Like I said, it's on both sides.

[reecehoward]

1.I have zero issue with people liking the manga, at all. I have a problem with people pretending it's not flawed and this ridiculous double standard surrounding the manga's flaws, especially in juxtaposition to the anime's. Someone already pointed out how many of the same flaws that most of us were up in arms about in the anime somehow gets a pass AND in some cases even praised even if the execution wasn't much different. How can THAT create a healthy community?

2. If you feel it's wrong for me to say that about the manga, why don't or haven't you pointed that out about everyone in this very thread who had that opinion about the anime, especially here when the anime SHOULD be irrelevant? There's that double standard right there.

3. The fact that you singled me out on this matter for my differing opinion shows YOUR narrow-mindedness. Show that same vitriol for those who share your opinions that actively belittle those who don't agree and you might have a case.

Never implied most users were stupid or anything of the sort. I'm saying the same thing that you are saying; most aren't going to come off of there stance. We come here to discuss and exchange those ideas. Nothing wrong with voicing your opinions. I've noticed however, and it was brought up by a couple of other users within the last few pages, that there are quite a few who are very condescending and pretentious in their stance, as if you don't know the lore of the series or understand it's concepts if you don't agree with them.

1. That's not the feeling that was conveyed in the original comment. It was an isolated (i.e. not responding to anyone) opinionated piece that was written like this is supposed to be truth. It was simply bait.

2.Objectively speaking, there is no right or wrong in literature. There is only what people prefer to read for different reasons. Your comment sounded downright condescending and snidy. That's all I'm saying.

3. I singled you out because you responded back to me. You want to play victim but are also part of the problem. Like I said, it's on both sides.

Ok, well call out both sides. If you could find my post to be so, surely you can find the others. I responded telling you the issue. You proceeded to fibd my post previous to yours and call me out. If you could get condescending out of that comment, then it shouldn't have even been a question of how has this thread gotten to that point in which you described in your initial comment. It's been that way for tens of dozens of pages now, maybe even before I've been here to witness myself.

[Bergamo]

1. Ssj was usable since day one. Ssj2 was usable since day one. Ssj3 is were it went full on useless, which I actually did have a problem with because I love that form. I figured someone would try to make a false equivalence. My arguement was about it even being usable in the first place before it became obsolete. Ssb wasn't even usable for more than a few moments, much like Ssj3, and when they finally made it somewhat usable, it was already useless.

2. Both are nonsense. That's where your bias shows.lol

1. Goku couldn't use SS1 at will until after training for a year on Yardrat. He finally gains the ability to transform intentionally and then the androids show up a bit later. This is the status quo.

2. That's not bias, that's preference. I find one mistake less egregious than the other. Is that wrong?

1. Goku used Ssj twice in succession during his fight with Frieza with no ill effects, if memory serves me right. When I say usable, I mean he could fight in it and get something done. He also gained the ability to do it at will before it was rendered obsolete as Trunks came in and killed off BOTH Frieza and King Cold with little effort, as well as Vegeta killing off Android 19. These are several fights and the weakness of the form was never brought up. Ssj was, again, usable. The manga Ssb, in the first arc that it is featured in, already shows us that it has serious issues. Vegeta, just turning it on twice loses 90% of of his power?! Then in the next arc they can't even stay in it for long, even after Goku "completes" it he suffers backlash. That's 3 whole problems that basically renders ssb kind of useless in any prolonged fight, add a 4th one now that it doesn't yield enough power to beat Jiren(which isn't really a flaw but just shows that ut is indeed obsolete without a good showing).

2. I suppose.

I personally like SSB in the manga, power drain and all. This is just a difference of opinion, not a malicious bias.

[reecehoward]

1. Goku couldn't use SS1 at will until after training for a year on Yardrat. He finally gains the ability to transform intentionally and then the androids show up a bit later. This is the status quo.

2. That's not bias, that's preference. I find one mistake less egregious than the other. Is that wrong?

1. Goku used Ssj twice in succession during his fight with Frieza with no ill effects, if memory serves me right. When I say usable, I mean he could fight in it and get something done. He also gained the ability to do it at will before it was rendered obsolete as Trunks came in and killed off BOTH Frieza and King Cold with little effort, as well as Vegeta killing off Android 19. These are several fights and the weakness of the form was never brought up. Ssj was, again, usable. The manga Ssb, in the first arc that it is featured in, already shows us that it has serious issues. Vegeta, just turning it on twice loses 90% of of his power?! Then in the next arc they can't even stay in it for long, even after Goku "completes" it he suffers backlash. That's 3 whole problems that basically renders ssb kind of useless in any prolonged fight, add a 4th one now that it doesn't yield enough power to beat Jiren(which isn't really a flaw but just shows that ut is indeed obsolete without a good showing).

2. I suppose.

I personally like SSB in the manga, power drain and all. This is just a difference of opinion, not a malicious bias.

1. Never said it was wrong to prefer it. Doesn't really change the fact that it is practically as useless a form as Ssj3, if not moreso due to having several issues.

[kemuri07]

Here's the thing: I don't have a problem with people who like the anime over the manga. What I do take issue with are some of the "arguments" against the manga that keep on propping up in this thread that read less as people having a critical eye for the material and more of whining and nitpicking because "the author didn't write the arc the way that I wanted him to." Now I'm not saying that Toyotaro is God king DB and no one should ever, ever criticize his writing--not saying that all. What I am saying is that the creator and the audience have to meet in the middle: Yes, Toyotaro should be writing the story with an eye of making it good for the fans, but fans also need to trust the writer in the direction that he's going with the story.

And if you don't like it, you don't like it. And that's fine.But this is a forum in which we're here to discuss and debate the manga, and of course that's going to mean comparisons to its anime counterpart. And if you're gonna say shit like Toyotaro is a bad writer, then you better back it up. But if the best argument you can construct is that Toyotaro didn't "respect" my favorite character, or some nonsense controversy by people who have apparently never read a comic book before to realize that artist use references from other source material all the time, then yeah I'm gonna call you out on it.

[CriticalThinker]

The manga still hasn't changed my mind that all this arc ever had going for it was the fights and nothing else. Sure the story might be more consistent in this version but I still find the contents of it to be pretty subpar. To sum it up I find both versions of this arc to be bad but for me the anime was at the very least a fun train wreck, while the manga has been a very dull one. Only reason I haven't dropped it yet is because I'm curious to see how Toyo handles the ending of this arc. Also on the whole anime vs manga debate that's seems to be going on at the moment, I don't think there's anything wrong if someone prefers on version over the other. Some people should take a chill pill though cause some get way to heated over it and I can't imagine that's good for your health.

[ricky84]

The biggest problem with Toyotaro is that he has all of Toriyama's flaws as a writer but none of his strengths. And there's not a single thing Toyotaro does better than Toriyama (especially in his prime).

Maybe Toriyama picked Toyotaro because he wanted a guy who can replicate DB's style without outshining him lmao.

[Bergamo]

1. Goku used Ssj twice in succession during his fight with Frieza with no ill effects, if memory serves me right. When I say usable, I mean he could fight in it and get something done. He also gained the ability to do it at will before it was rendered obsolete as Trunks came in and killed off BOTH Frieza and King Cold with little effort, as well as Vegeta killing off Android 19. These are several fights and the weakness of the form was never brought up. Ssj was, again, usable. The manga Ssb, in the first arc that it is featured in, already shows us that it has serious issues. Vegeta, just turning it on twice loses 90% of of his power?! Then in the next arc they can't even stay in it for long, even after Goku "completes" it he suffers backlash. That's 3 whole problems that basically renders ssb kind of useless in any prolonged fight, add a 4th one now that it doesn't yield enough power to beat Jiren(which isn't really a flaw but just shows that ut is indeed obsolete without a good showing).

2. I suppose.

I personally like SSB in the manga, power drain and all. This is just a difference of opinion, not a malicious bias.

1. Never said it was wrong to prefer it. Doesn't really change the fact that it is practically as useless a form as Ssj3, if not moreso due to having several issues.

It's about as useless as SS3 was in the buu saga, and I love SS3 in the buu saga. Also, SSB was useful in the FT arc in the manga whereas it's never shown to be strong in the anime.