Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Goku said in the Cell Saga that he had trained his body to its limit. Trunks in the future trunks arc said that Goku and Vegeta had trained their bodies to their limit.

Is it fair to say that
Base Goku(Cell Saga) = Base Goku(FT Arc)
And that the only remaining factors are transformations and ki power.

That line only really makes sense ignoring all post Boo arc stuff. After the Cell Games, Goku and Vegeta train like crazy for 7 years and they aren't much stronger than Gohan was at his pre Ultimate peak. The only reason Goku gets a significant edge is thanks to SS3.

The line can still make sense if you believe Toei retconned their base to ~Boo arc levels following RoF and ignoring the copy-Vegeta filler.

Super has no filler.

Base Goku is also stronger than Shin in the manga.

[PFM18]

Goku said in the Cell Saga that he had trained his body to its limit. Trunks in the future trunks arc said that Goku and Vegeta had trained their bodies to their limit.

Is it fair to say that
Base Goku(Cell Saga) = Base Goku(FT Arc)
And that the only remaining factors are transformations and ki power.

Well "ki power" is what constitutes most of the power of the characters so it is kind of a pointless distinction.

[Nokra]

Why do people claim Goku and Vegeta are "multiversal" when it's never been said they are especially when we know the only multiversal level character is Zen-Oh (and technically Tori-Bot too)?

[ssj3kakarot]

Why do people claim Goku and Vegeta are "multiversal" when it's never been said they are especially when we know the only multiversal level character is Zen-Oh (and technically Tori-Bot too)?

Because people equate " shaking the world of void" (blah blah infinite space) as being able to have the power to be multiversal.

The only showing of power on that level is Goku ( ssg) vs Beerus when they had simple punches that almost were destroying 1 universe. Some clear power nerf was needed as this would be outrageous in a series where the good guy, aka Goku, always gets stronger. Outside that, no feat has been shown. Even that feat isn't proof of them being multi, maybe just universal.

Oh!! And because it makes them sound more powerful!

[Hugo Boss]

Because people equate " shaking the world of void" (blah blah infinite space) as being able to have the power to be multiversal.

How do you shake an empty space?

[Kaiza_Toshiyuki]

Because people equate " shaking the world of void" (blah blah infinite space) as being able to have the power to be multiversal.

How do you shake an empty space?

The same way you shake a car, you put force on it. Energy is shown even in the real world to affect things that you would think should be physically impossible to do anything to. Shaking an area of empty space happens to be one of those things.

[PFM18]

Because people equate " shaking the world of void" (blah blah infinite space) as being able to have the power to be multiversal.

How do you shake an empty space?

An area of infinite empty space that is

Whatever the hell that means

[SupremeKai25]

Why do people claim Goku and Vegeta are "multiversal" when it's never been said they are especially when we know the only multiversal level character is Zen-Oh (and technically Tori-Bot too)?

And Infinite Zamasu too. Potentially. On Earth, he was able to destroy everything in a few seconds. If he had been given the time to spread throughout the Multiverse, he could have covered every planet and then obliterated all things at the same time.

There's a reason why he is called "INFINITE" Zamasu, after all. His divine power truly had no end. And he was immortal, of course.

But he merged with the very fabric of creation. Logically, that should clearly put him on another level of power entirely.

[Kaiza_Toshiyuki]

Because people equate " shaking the world of void" (blah blah infinite space) as being able to have the power to be multiversal.

How do you shake an empty space?

An area of infinite empty space that is

Whatever the hell that means

For people discussing strength you don´t really understand it, do you?

[Green]

Ok guys, let's try to reach a consensus on the powerscaling regarding these four characters.

Hakaishin Toppo
SSBE Vegeta
2nd UIO Goku
SS2 Kefla

What's your chain regarding them and why.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

UI Omen Goku=SSJ2 Kefla>SSBE Vegeta>God of Destruction Toppo

SSBE Vegeta is stated to only be comparable to SSB Kaioken Goku in power, and that power is obviously far below the level of Ultra Instinct as shown in the TOP.


2nd UI Omen Goku=SSJ2 Kefla>UI Omen Goku=Suppressed Jiren>SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku=SSBE Vegeta(Resolve boost)>God of Destruction Toppo>SSBE Vegeta

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Here's my thought pattern.

Pure Power Level
> Hakaishin Toppo
> Mutant SS2 Kefla
> SSBE Vegeta
> Ultra Instinct Omen Goku

Combat Skill
> Ultra Instinct Omen Goku
> SSBE Vegeta/Hakaishin Toppo/Mutant SS2 Kefla

Ability to Hit Above Power Level
> Ultra Instinct Omen Goku/SSBE Vegeta
> Hakaishin Toppo/Mutant SS2 Kefla

[GodVegetto91]

SSBE Vegeta improved>GoD Toppo>>>>LSSJ2 Kefla>UIO Goku (strength wise) but the latter still wins in battle ofcourse.

[ZombieVito]

Ok guys, let's try to reach a consensus on the powerscaling regarding these four characters.

Hakaishin Toppo
SSBE Vegeta
2nd UIO Goku
SS2 Kefla

What's your chain regarding them and why.

SSBE Vegeta [rage boost] > UIO Goku > GoD Toppo > SS2 Kefla >>> SSBE Vegeta.

SSBE was stated to be an equal form to Goku's Kaioken so I have Vegeta on par with KKx20 Blue Goku before his rage boost. SS Kefla was said to rival the Genkidama Goku made so she is stronger than KKx20 and then she turns SS2. I have GoD Toppo stronger than her only because of those cards they released with power levels lol.

[Bullza]

I'd agree with SSBE Vegeta (Rage Boost) > God of Destruction Toppo > SSBE Vegeta

If SSBE Vegeta is equal to SSB Goku Kaio-ken x20 then I suppose SS2 Kefla would be above him naturally but how do we know if hes she's also above Toppo?

The sticker suggests Toppo is stronger but the sticker also has Goku Kaio-ken above Kefla too.

Ultra Instinct Omen Goku? I dunno but he's probably above them all.

[RandomGuy96]

Can someone clarify something about the manga's timeline for me?

Beerus says in chapter 27 that it's been a few years (3-5 in common usage) since he last fought Vegeta. That fight presumably being their brief clash in BoG, assuming no other fight took place off-screen in the interim. The timeline from is fairly compressed from Beerus to Zamasu by the dragon ball usage and explicit 4 months statement in ROF as well as Pan not growing (though that could be handwaved as Saiyan biology). So is the implication here that it's at least a couple year time skip (up from the minimum few months imposed by Bulma's pregnancy) between Zamasu and the ToP? If so, wouldn't that imply that training their base forms doesn't do anything for Goku/Vegeta anymore, since Vegeta is equal to Goku in the same form both before and after the time skip despite Goku explicitly slacking off and Vegeta not?

[ekrolo2]

Assuming Goku got a chance to attain Ultimate as offered to him by Old Kai before the ToP, how strong would he end up? Equal to his KKX20 Blue self? Closer to Omen?

[PFM18]

Assuming Goku got a chance to attain Ultimate as offered to him by Old Kai before the ToP, how strong would he end up? Equal to his KKX20 Blue self? Closer to Omen?

It's extremely hard to say actually. But Gohan has a higher potential than Goku, and his Ultimate form was shown to be slightly weaker than SSB so I would imagine Goku's would be weaker than that.

[1345521]

Can someone clarify something about the manga's timeline for me?

Beerus says in chapter 27 that it's been a few years (3-5 in common usage) since he last fought Vegeta. That fight presumably being their brief clash in BoG, assuming no other fight took place off-screen in the interim. The timeline from is fairly compressed from Beerus to Zamasu by the dragon ball usage and explicit 4 months statement in ROF as well as Pan not growing (though that could be handwaved as Saiyan biology). So is the implication here that it's at least a couple year time skip (up from the minimum few months imposed by Bulma's pregnancy) between Zamasu and the ToP? If so, wouldn't that imply that training their base forms doesn't do anything for Goku/Vegeta anymore, since Vegeta is equal to Goku in the same form both before and after the time skip despite Goku explicitly slacking off and Vegeta not?

In the manga, bog only takes place about a few montsh to a year after BUU. Then everything goes basically annually:
ROF - 1 YEAR
UNI 6 - A few months
Black arc - a few months

Hence estimating to the time the black arc started, it was about 10 years after buu, which is conistent to what trunks said in chapter 15. I'm pretty sure it's like this in the anime, but people want to say the whole 4 years after buu then 3 years to top which is 7 years in total instead of about 4 years but whatever...


And correct. Their base is just enhanced from the training they have done, it's not actaully exposnatiantly stronger that we thought and or think for the anime. The manga abse goku and vegeta is just enhanced version (slightly to mideium amount stronger) of their buu saga base. so 17 is probably only like super buu level maybe... if not weaker. We defitnly can assume 17 is stronger then kid buu

[RandomGuy96]

Can someone clarify something about the manga's timeline for me?

Beerus says in chapter 27 that it's been a few years (3-5 in common usage) since he last fought Vegeta. That fight presumably being their brief clash in BoG, assuming no other fight took place off-screen in the interim. The timeline from is fairly compressed from Beerus to Zamasu by the dragon ball usage and explicit 4 months statement in ROF as well as Pan not growing (though that could be handwaved as Saiyan biology). So is the implication here that it's at least a couple year time skip (up from the minimum few months imposed by Bulma's pregnancy) between Zamasu and the ToP? If so, wouldn't that imply that training their base forms doesn't do anything for Goku/Vegeta anymore, since Vegeta is equal to Goku in the same form both before and after the time skip despite Goku explicitly slacking off and Vegeta not?

In the manga, bog only takes place about a few montsh to a year after BUU.

Impossible due to Pan's age.

estimating to the time the black arc started, it was about 10 years after buu, which is conistent to what trunks said in chapter 15.

What did Trunks say?