Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

Seriously? So you're just going to dismiss everything without refuting any of it. Essentially "I'm right because I said so" huh?

Belmod saying that only in 109 Goku has released the true power of SSB isn't evidence?
Goku literally saying he will use a bit more power isn't evidence?
Why would Goku literally say after his fight with her to get stronger so that they can have a real right?? Because she already kicked his ass at full-power but it wasn't a real fight?
If Kale dominated SSB Goku at full-power, why wouldn't everyone still regard Hit as the team's ace?
Why wouldn't Goku be intimidated by Jiren one shotting Kale and immediately challenge him?.

Appealing to emotion to try to prove something isn't fact, Belmound never stated Goku showed his true power in Blue and all the trans doesn't have Goku say a "bit" more power.
These examples are bad and should be dismissed.

[PFM18]

Seriously? So you're just going to dismiss everything without refuting any of it. Essentially "I'm right because I said so" huh?

Belmod saying that only in 109 Goku has released the true power of SSB isn't evidence?
Goku literally saying he will use a bit more power isn't evidence?
Why would Goku literally say after his fight with her to get stronger so that they can have a real right?? Because she already kicked his ass at full-power but it wasn't a real fight?
If Kale dominated SSB Goku at full-power, why wouldn't everyone still regard Hit as the team's ace?
Why wouldn't Goku be intimidated by Jiren one shotting Kale and immediately challenge him?.

Appealing to emotion to try to prove something isn't fact, Belmound never stated Goku showed his true power in Blue and all the trans doesn't have Goku say a "bit" more power.
These examples are bad and should be dismissed.

.....yeah Belmod did say that and it is well known the verbatim's direct translation is "a bit." You still disregarded everything else. You're just being stubborn dude.

[Marlowe89]

Well, there's not a modicum of evidence in the show that outright disproves it either.

Nor should there be, because that's not how the burden of proof works. It's not my responsibility to disprove it. It's your responsibility to prove it.

If you made the claim, the onus is entirely on you (and you alone) to provide substantive backing for that claim. If you can't, then you shouldn't expect anyone in this thread to take your interpretation any more seriously than my previously mentioned interpretation that my dad works at Nintendo or that my mom is a flying unicorn zombie from outer space.

That's not to say that there's anything inherently wrong with headcanon -- you're just as entitled to think your personal headcanon is the case as I'm entitled to believe the flying monkeys from Wizard of Oz live in my closet -- but that isn't valid as an argument, nor will it ever suffice for a proper argument. If people having vastly different interpretations of the anime's power scaling is a testament to anything, it's a testament to Toei not having a grasp on consistency.

[SSJgogeto]

SSB Goku (holding back).

Ah, the common refrain of every Super fan.

Pretty much

[Bullza]

He actually was holding back though. During the fight with Kale? Yeah he was holding back, he said as much.

[PFM18]

If you made the claim, the onus is entirely on you (and you alone) to provide substantive backing for that claim. If you can't, then you shouldn't expect anyone in this thread to take your interpretation any more seriously than my previously mentioned interpretation that my dad works at Nintendo or that my mom is a flying unicorn zombie from outer space.

Do you have evidence to back up and a cohesive thought process to go with your claim of your mother's airborne undead status that originated in space? If not, then it isn't at all analogous to his claim.

He actually was holding back though. During the fight with Kale? Yeah he was holding back, he said as much.

It should be crystal clear who anybody views it objectively but it appears that this is scarce.

[ZombieVito]

I can't believe people are still arguing about this.

Yes, Blue Goku was holding back against Kale in E100 as he says so himself. E114 also has a stronger Kale failing to beat a much weaker Goku (SSG transformation and not fresh).

PFM18 pretty much said everything that needed to be said on the matter.

[PFM18]

PFM18 pretty much said everything that needed to be said on the matter.

Apparently the gigantic pile of evidence that exists doesn't matter. People are going to believe what they want to believe.

[Skar]

Also, don't' pretend that you aren't perfectly willing to use mental gymnastics to justify all the shit going on in the original series. (of course this isn't mental gymnastics in the first place.)

To be honest and this is just from what I've experienced, the mental gymnastics and excuses I've seen for DBS goes far beyond what I've witnessed for the original series or even any amateur fancomic/fanfic. It's the equivalent of someone of using mental gymnastics as they bend over backwards while grasping at straws.

In the original or in a fan comic, if something isn't consistent then I just assume the author screwed up or failed to make it clear. I can offer my own headcanon but I feel there's a big difference between acknowledging this is just my interpretation and what I think the author was trying to convey. The arguments such as "X was holding back", "x character was lying or misinformed", changing multipliers, or other headcanon that doesn't have much evidence to support it unless you look at it a certain way have never gotten a pass in anything else Dragonball-related including fanfiction from what I've seen.

The audience that this series is intended for is younger than most of the members on this forum. It's supposed to be straightforward and easy to understand. If something doesn't add up, I doubt they intended for it to be a puzzle for the young fans to piece together. The original manga wasn't 100% consistent but I feel it was easier to follow its power scaling because it had one author. The same with the DBS manga and I would include almost every decent fancomic I've come across. I feel the DBS anime is more confusing at times due to so many writers and not enough attention to detail when putting all their parts together. This definitely shows by the amount of headcanon and reaching fans need to explain it.

[RandomGuy96]

It should have been obvious that Goku was heavily suppressed

Whenever someone trying to defend Super says this I just kind of space out on the rest of their post.

[PFM18]

It should have been obvious that Goku was heavily suppressed

Whenever someone trying to defend Super says this I just kind of space out on the rest of their post.

....yeah that's cool and all dude but again, it should be blatantly obvious as @Bullza and @ZombieVito explained. Let me quote myself in explaining:

1. Goku witnessed Jiren one shot Kale, isn't impressed by it, and isn't intimidated and even immediately challenges Jiren.(Implying he also could have one shot Kale.)
2. At the end of episode 101, he let caulifla and kale escape and told them "both of you will get stronger and THEN we will have our REAL fight". Implyinig he didn't think either of them could give him a real fight as it stands.
3.In Episode 109, goku goes ssb and belmod says "at last he has brought out the true power of ssb" as if to say that prior to this point he didn't use the true power of SSB.
4. In episode 104, belmod and champa both recognize hit as the ace of u6, if kale was truly > blue goku, that wouldn't be the case especially since the last time champa saw hit, blue goku matched him/surpassed him.
5. After the fight with Kale, Goku shows no batte damage.
6. Goku powered up from SSJ2->SSB and said he would use "a little more power." Obviously indicating that he wasn't using the full-power of SSB and is corroborated by Belmod's statement in 109 when Goku powers up to SSB against Jiren.
7. When they show flashbacks of Kale's first Berserker transformation, they just show her beating up SSJ2 IIRC, as if to say that "her berserker form could Beat Goku's SSJ2!" And evidently not enough for full-power SSB. Otherwise, the more notable flash back would have been defeating the exponentially more powerful SSB

If I assume that you are going to actually get off your high horse and hear me out, please answer me; Why would Belmod say in 109 when Goku powers up against Jiren "he finially brought out the full-power of SSB" if he wasn't suppressed? Does that not imply that prior to 109 he had not used his full-power of SSB? The literal translation from when Goku went SSJ2-> was that he was using "a bit" more power. Why would he say that if he was using his full-power? Why he would tell Kale/Caulifla after their first fight so that they could give him a real fight? If Kale displayed true superiority over SSB Goku, why would it be stated that Hit is the ace of Universe 6?

Please, explain to me how this makes sense if Goku wasn't suppressed. Again it is blatantly obvious to anybody who pays attention that Goku was suppressed.

[Skar]

It should have been obvious that Goku was heavily suppressed

Whenever someone trying to defend Super says this I just kind of space out on the rest of their post.

I find this to be one of the most infuriating arguments I hear for DBS. Storywise, it makes no sense for a character to exert the effort to transform and then hold back to a power level as low or lower than a previous form(s). The only instance in the original manga that I recall of this was Gohan turned SSJ to take out those bank robbers. The story made it very clear why he chose to do that in order to disguise himself. Throughout the original manga and everything else DB-related I think of, a Saiyan only transforms when they need to.

In DBS, fans are forced to assume a character is holding back when they have no reason to because no other explanation works. If I recall, this only happens in anime-only scenes. I would guess that those writers aren't sure of how strong some of Goku's opponents are supposed to be so they just have him transform to SSJB to give him a huge range of how low he can suppress his power or how high he can power-up to. In BoG, Goku showed each form to Beerus and offered to power back down to SSJ2 before sparing. He didn't offer to hold back in SSJ3 because powering down to a previous form would likely require less effort. In the U6 saga, Goku fought in base until he needed to transform later on. Assuming these scenes are from Toriyama, he's just using the straightforward logic he did in the original by only having a character transform when the current form they were in wasn't enough.

[Miracles]

Seriously? So you're just going to dismiss everything without refuting any of it. Essentially "I'm right because I said so" huh?

Belmod saying that only in 109 Goku has released the true power of SSB isn't evidence?
Goku literally saying he will use a bit more power isn't evidence?
Why would Goku literally say after his fight with her to get stronger so that they can have a real right?? Because she already kicked his ass at full-power but it wasn't a real fight?
If Kale dominated SSB Goku at full-power, why wouldn't everyone still regard Hit as the team's ace?
Why wouldn't Goku be intimidated by Jiren one shotting Kale and immediately challenge him?.

Appealing to emotion to try to prove something isn't fact, Belmound never stated Goku showed his true power in Blue and all the trans doesn't have Goku say a "bit" more power.
These examples are bad and should be dismissed.

.....yeah Belmod did say that and it is well known the verbatim's direct translation is "a bit." You still disregarded everything else. You're just being stubborn dude.

No Belmound did not...


Goku said he let out even more power in the preview and the episode.



As for the rest of your questions like Hit still being stated to be U6 ace or Goku telling them to get stronger so we could have a real fight by no means define Goku was holding back in blue. We know Goku can use KK. This is why I said you are reaching with sayings that prove nothing of Goku holding back against Kale in blue alone.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Well, there's not a modicum of evidence in the show that outright disproves it either.

Nor should there be, because that's not how the burden of proof works. It's not my responsibility to disprove it. It's your responsibility to prove it.

If you made the claim, the onus is entirely on you (and you alone) to provide substantive backing for that claim. If you can't, then you shouldn't expect anyone in this thread to take your interpretation any more seriously than my previously mentioned interpretation that my dad works at Nintendo or that my mom is a flying unicorn zombie from outer space.

That's not to say that there's anything inherently wrong with headcanon -- you're just as entitled to think your personal headcanon is the case as I'm entitled to believe the flying monkeys from Wizard of Oz live in my closet -- but that isn't valid as an argument, nor will it ever suffice for a proper argument. If people having vastly different interpretations of the anime's power scaling is a testament to anything, it's a testament to Toei not having a grasp on consistency.

Good thing I don't expect people to believe me 100% and live my own life, then.

I always preface things by stating they're my own personal interpretation based on how I view the facts, and I make sure to note that others aren't privy to believe them. I simply like to state them to let people know how I'm viewing the situation, and perhaps provide perspective.

If people don't believe my arguments, which I HAVE provided evidence for and which people are free to choose to believe or not depending on if they think I'm interpreting the facts correctly, that's fine. I'll just live my life as I usually do, inching my way across life and maybe having some interesting conversation on my favourite entertainment media.

[Bullza]

So where do we all stand on Zamasu again?

I stand by what I've said before in that he is at best Super Saiyan 2 level. He lost against Super Saiyan 2 Goku though he did say he was distracted at the time and could have done better but then he did also lose the uppercase against Super Saiyan 2 Trunks and would have died if not for his immorality.

On a side note in the manga they did say he was weaker than Trunks.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So where do we all stand on Zamasu again?

I stand by what I've said before in that he is at best Super Saiyan 2 level. He lost against Super Saiyan 2 Goku though he did say he was distracted at the time and could have done better but then he did also lose the uppercase against Super Saiyan 2 Trunks and would have died if not for his immorality.

On a side note in the manga they did say he was weaker than Trunks.

The present version, I generally place him around as strong as SS Goku, assuming that Goku has a base form above all Kaioshin whom range from below to at Cell's or even Majin Buu's level.

Future Zamasu, then, is a bit stronger, about as strong as SS2 on top of this level of base form, but that's about it.

[RecolorSaiyan]

So Champa believes that a full stamina ssb goku could take on ss kefla, then kefla in 30 seconds gets so strong she rivals the spirit bomb and can knock out ssb kkx20 goku. Then as a ssj2, her powerups again are so endless she can kill omen?

I think the anime staff did with kefla what they did with m zamasu, where the initial power isn't absurd but they get power up after powerup in almost no time to reach levels that wouldn't make sense based on the components of the fusion

[PFM18]

Appealing to emotion to try to prove something isn't fact, Belmound never stated Goku showed his true power in Blue and all the trans doesn't have Goku say a "bit" more power.
These examples are bad and should be dismissed.

.....yeah Belmod did say that and it is well known the verbatim's direct translation is "a bit." You still disregarded everything else. You're just being stubborn dude.

No Belmound did not...


Goku said he let out even more power in the preview and the episode.



As for the rest of your questions like Hit still being stated to be U6 ace or Goku telling them to get stronger so we could have a real fight by no means define Goku was holding back in blue. We know Goku can use KK. This is why I said you are reaching with sayings that prove nothing of Goku holding back against Kale in blue alone.

The direct translation is literally "a bit more power." The way Goku went SSB and the power it presented was treated differently from Belmod and everyone else from what we saw from Goku in 100. If Kale was stronger than SSB, she would be the ace of Universe 6 and not HIt. Period. She isn't, and that is also reflected by Goku commenting that the pair of them couldn't give him a real fight until they got stronger. So unless that arbitrarily meant "Yeah get stronger so I can use Kaioken!" then Goku was clearly holding back. He didn't consider it a real right because he didn't need to take them seriously. (was suppressed) You didn't even address the rest of the evidence. It is clear you aren't interested in being objective about this.

[Nokra]

This whole "was goku holding back against kale" debate is hilariously stupid but its understandable why people are so confused. It's really a combination of things. The translations are inconsistent, displays/usage of power by the characters in universe are inconsistent, people don't pay enough attention to what characters are saying or misinterpret what they say due in part to bad translations/bias, people trying to downplay the power of other characters because they're bias/dislike those characters and people who just don't like dbs so they need to find any reason to complain about it or vice versa for those who want to defend it. And then there are the few who are actually looking at it objectively and without bias. On a side note, and from an objective standpoint, I think it's pretty obvious that goku was indeed holding back based on the surplus of evidence in the show.

[ankokudaishogun]

Goku and Vegeta were stated to get a rivalry boost.

by the same guy who said the Potara fusion was permanent.

Also, Vegetto having a Rivalry Bonus doesn't mean Kefla doesn't get a different, even greater, Bonus due their relationship