Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Also: nowhere we are told Kaioken Blue has the same multiplier on base stats than the base Kaiohken. That said we aren't told it doesn't, either; but God Ki DOES work differently than Normal Ki.

I'm pretty sure when he was powering up towards X10, Hit was saying something like X3...X4. So he could feel hit energy multiplying.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

About Goku one shotting" Zamasu with Kaiohken: he only managed a single clean hit, most likely due the surprise effect of his sudden power-up on a Zamasu who got both hit by Father-Son Garrick Cannon and his own energy sphere exploding on his face.

Also: nowhere we are told Kaioken Blue has the same multiplier on base stats than the base Kaiohken. That said we aren't told it doesn't, either; but God Ki DOES work differently than Normal Ki.
Frankly, I suspect it does have a lower multiplicator because no way in hell Goku would have needed going TEN times stronger than Hit. Using Kaiohken Blue x10 right after managing to use Kaiohken Blue for the first time seems way too reckless even for anime Goku, unless it was strictly necessary or not as dangerous\effective

A different multiplication from the actual stated number seems to complicated to try and reason with.

That, and Goku needing KaiokenX10 seems more like making absolutely sure his strength and speed can overtake Hit's Time-Skip ability, which is a major force multiplier beyond mere strength.

[PFM18]

About Goku one shotting" Zamasu with Kaiohken: he only managed a single clean hit, most likely due the surprise effect of his sudden power-up on a Zamasu who got both hit by Father-Son Garrick Cannon and his own energy sphere exploding on his face.

Also: nowhere we are told Kaioken Blue has the same multiplier on base stats than the base Kaiohken. That said we aren't told it doesn't, either; but God Ki DOES work differently than Normal Ki.
Frankly, I suspect it does have a lower multiplicator because no way in hell Goku would have needed going TEN times stronger than Hit. Using Kaiohken Blue x10 right after managing to use Kaiohken Blue for the first time seems way too reckless even for anime Goku, unless it was strictly necessary or not as dangerous\effective

Hit basically said goku's power was multiplying when he was using kaioken, he explicitly said "3 times, no 4" before goku went "times 10". Kaioken is a straight up multiplier.

Exactly. We have direct confirmation from Hit

[ZombieVito]

Wait Gowasu's comment was before Merged Zamasu came to be or was half way through the episode after he'd already appeared?

Half way.

About Goku one shotting" Zamasu with Kaiohken: he only managed a single clean hit, most likely due the surprise effect of his sudden power-up on a Zamasu who got both hit by Father-Son Garrick Cannon and his own energy sphere exploding on his face.

Also: nowhere we are told Kaioken Blue has the same multiplier on base stats than the base Kaiohken. That said we aren't told it doesn't, either; but God Ki DOES work differently than Normal Ki.
Frankly, I suspect it does have a lower multiplicator because no way in hell Goku would have needed going TEN times stronger than Hit. Using Kaiohken Blue x10 right after managing to use Kaiohken Blue for the first time seems way too reckless even for anime Goku, unless it was strictly necessary or not as dangerous\effective

Hit has always been weaker than Blue Goku. Goku just needed that much of a gap to stop Hit's Time Skip.

[Miracles]

With regards to the Future Trunks Arc in the end, Vegeta says himself that he surpassed Goku when they went to Future Trunks's timeline for the last time. We see this in how he manhandled Goku Black, who had grown stronger from his beating at the hands of Goku's rage boost.

Of course, he's also not so far ahead that taking on further powerful foes at Goku Black's or even regular Goku's level is a complete cakewalk; Goku Black's clones were individually strong enough to threaten Goku AND Vegeta, Future Zamasu could land precise strikes when Vegeta's focus wasn't on him, and Merged Zamasu was so much stronger that the difference between Goku and Vegeta really didn't matter as much as their combined and/or limit-breaking power.

As Usual, Vegeta was boasting in his own mental reality. Goku was proven to be above Vegeta when he overpowered merged Zamas using his "full power" [That's what he said when he boosted his Kamehameha to overcome Zamas]. While Vegeta and Trunks struggled together to overpower Zamas.

Also, about Super Saiyan being equal to Super Saiyan god. How could it be equal when it was directly stated in the BOG movie that Super Saiyan was "powered down" compared to god?
Yes, Goku indeed absorbed god powers and was fighting with it, however, I don't remember it being outright stated to be equal with red mode.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

With regards to the Future Trunks Arc in the end, Vegeta says himself that he surpassed Goku when they went to Future Trunks's timeline for the last time. We see this in how he manhandled Goku Black, who had grown stronger from his beating at the hands of Goku's rage boost.

Of course, he's also not so far ahead that taking on further powerful foes at Goku Black's or even regular Goku's level is a complete cakewalk; Goku Black's clones were individually strong enough to threaten Goku AND Vegeta, Future Zamasu could land precise strikes when Vegeta's focus wasn't on him, and Merged Zamasu was so much stronger that the difference between Goku and Vegeta really didn't matter as much as their combined and/or limit-breaking power.

As Usual, Vegeta was boasting in his own mental reality. Goku was proven to be above Vegeta when he overpowered merged Zamas using his "full power" [That's what he said when he boosted his Kamehameha to overcome Zamas]. While Vegeta and Trunks struggled together to overpower Zamas.

Also, about Super Saiyan being equal to Super Saiyan god. How could it be equal when it was directly stated in the BOG movie that Super Saiyan was "powered down" compared to god?
Yes, Goku indeed absorbed god powers and was fighting with it, however, I don't remember it being outright stated to be equal with red mode.

I think Beerus mentions a time or two that Goku's power hadn't changed, and how this was a real fight with a Super Saiyan God.

Personally, I don't believe current Super Saiyan is equal to SSG from before, but neither do I believe that the normal forms aren't drastically higher than before.

With regards to Goku and Vegeta against Merged Zamasu, we have to remember that Goku broke both of his arms putting out that much power while Trunks and Vegeta were comparatively fine afterwards; he simply put in enough effort and energy into that singular attack than the both of them did with their Father-Son Galick Gun. There's no indication that his actual "normal" battle power was higher than Vegeta; at most, he was close to Vegeta in SSB but still below.

[Bullza]

I'll update this now that I've finished the Future Trunks saga. I colour coded it so Red is from the Battle of God's Saga, Blue is from the Resurrection F Saga, Purple is from the Universe 6 Saga and Green is from the Future Trunks saga.

Zeno
Grand Minister
Whis | Vados
Beerus
Champa

Super Saiyan Anger Future Trunks (Sword of Hope)
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Merged Zamasu (Half Corrupted)

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaio-ken
Merged Zamasu
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaio-ken X10 Goku

Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta | Super Saiyan Anger Future Trunks (Full Power)
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black (Scythe)
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta (Post Rosat)
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black (Azure Sword)
Super Saiyan Anger Future Trunks
Super Saiyan Blue Goku (Rage Boost)
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black

Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta
Hit

Goku Black

Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Zamasu
Super Saiyan Future Trunks
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta | Cabba
Magetta
Super Saiyan Goku
Super Saiyan God Goku

Frost (Final Form)
Future Trunks
Goku | Vegeta
Goku | Vegeta | Cabba
Goku | Vegeta | Frieza (Final Form)

Super Saiyan Goku (Ritual)
Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan Gotenks

Good Buu
Frieza (First Form)
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Gohan

Captain Ginyu
Tagoma
Piccolo
Super Saiyan Trunks | Goten
Android 18

Goku | Vegeta
Gohan
Goten | Trunks

Krillin
Tien Shinhan
Master Roshi (Max Power)
Jaco

[RecolorSaiyan]

I'll update this now that I've finished the Future Trunks saga. I colour coded it so Red is from the Battle of God's Saga, Blue is from the Resurrection F Saga, Purple is from the Universe 6 Saga and Green is from the Future Trunks saga.


Super Saiyan Anger Future Trunks (Sword of Hope)
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Merged Zamasu (Half Corrupted)

The fact that I can't just immediately dismiss and can see why someone would feel this way this makes me very

[AvatarReiko]

How much of a fight would a full power Vegito have given Beerus? Would he have gotten a couple of good hits in or would he have gotten rekt as badly as Goku?

[RecolorSaiyan]

How much of a fight would a full power Vegito have given Beerus? Would he have gotten a couple of good hits in or would he have gotten rekt as badly as Goku?

In which arc?

BoG ssj3 Vegito gets utterly stomped

SSB Vegito from the Zamasu arc either gets one shotted (anime) or fights on par if not overwhelms until defusion (manga)

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

How much of a fight would a full power Vegito have given Beerus? Would he have gotten a couple of good hits in or would he have gotten rekt as badly as Goku?

He likely would've gotten some glances from Beerus, perhaps even enough to consider this might be the SSG if my own personal scaling is anything to go by.

Ultimately, though, Beerus would stop messing around and knock him out like he did to Vegeta.

[ZombieVito]

How much of a fight would a full power Vegito have given Beerus? Would he have gotten a couple of good hits in or would he have gotten rekt as badly as Goku?

BoG Vegetto gets finger flicked.

FT Vegetto is even with him until he defuses.

Why do you have Black weaker than Goku and Vegeta Bullza? Gowasu confirmed him as the strongest.

Edit: Wait.. Magetta, Cabba, etc over SSG? WHAT?

[Miracles]

How much of a fight would a full power Vegito have given Beerus? Would he have gotten a couple of good hits in or would he have gotten rekt as badly as Goku?

BoG Vegetto gets finger flicked.

FT Vegetto is even with him until he defuses.

Why do you have Black weaker than Goku and Vegeta Bullza? Gowasu confirmed him as the strongest.

Edit: Wait.. Magetta, Cabba, etc over SSG? WHAT?

Don't understand where the bold is coming from?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

How much of a fight would a full power Vegito have given Beerus? Would he have gotten a couple of good hits in or would he have gotten rekt as badly as Goku?

BoG Vegetto gets finger flicked.

FT Vegetto is even with him until he defuses.

Why do you have Black weaker than Goku and Vegeta Bullza? Gowasu confirmed him as the strongest.

Edit: Wait.. Magetta, Cabba, etc over SSG? WHAT?

Don't understand where the bold is coming from?

It's mainly the idea that SSB Vegito is strong enough that he might or might not be stronger than Beerus; the difference is small enough that it could go either way.

[Bullza]

Why do you have Black weaker than Goku and Vegeta Bullza? Gowasu confirmed him as the strongest.

This would be Goku and Vegeta after they seemingly broke through some more limits while battling Merged Zamasu.

Edit: Wait.. Magetta, Cabba, etc over SSG? WHAT?

The Super Saiyan Goku who fought Beerus was no weaker, infact he was probably stronger right at the very end, than Super Saiyan God. That was said outright.

With all the training with Whis and Vegeta, Super Saiyan Goku would be stronger still in the later sagas. Super Saiyan Cabba and Magetta were just as strong.

Super Saiyan Goku (U6) = Super Saiyan Cabba > Super Saiyan Goku (BoG) >= Super Saiyan God Goku

[ZombieVito]

Don't understand where the bold is coming from?

Manga, Toyo and since Kefla with a mutated Super Saiyan 2 was already getting close to GoD tier, I see no reason to doubt this.

Why do you have Black weaker than Goku and Vegeta Bullza? Gowasu confirmed him as the strongest.

This would be Goku and Vegeta after they seemingly broke through some more limits while battling Merged Zamasu.

Edit: Wait.. Magetta, Cabba, etc over SSG? WHAT?

The Super Saiyan Goku who fought Beerus was no weaker, infact he was probably stronger right at the very end, than Super Saiyan God. That was said outright.

With all the training with Whis and Vegeta, Super Saiyan Goku would be stronger still in the later sagas. Super Saiyan Cabba and Magetta were just as strong.

Super Saiyan Goku (U6) = Super Saiyan Cabba > Super Saiyan Goku (BoG) >= Super Saiyan God Goku

I personally don't see a thing that confirms they surpass Black but that's me.

Super Saiyan Goku being equal to God post BoG is insane. That would mean Super Saiyan Blue would be millions of times stronger than the Super Saiyan God from the BoG arc. I can't see that.

Goku: 1
- SS: 50
- SS2: 100
- SS3: 400
- SSG: 200,000 (Has to be stronger than SS3 Vegetto)

Goku (After God runs out): 4,000
- SS: 200,000
- SS2: 400,000
- SS3: 1,600,000
- SSG: 320,000,000,000
- SSB: 16,000,000,000,000 (For this example SSB is 50 times SSG)

You see how crazy this is?

[RecolorSaiyan]

[PFM18]

Goku: 1
- SS: 50
- SS2: 100
- SS3: 400
- SSG: 200,000 (Has to be stronger than SS3 Vegetto)

Goku (After God runs out): 4,000
- SS: 200,000
- SS2: 400,000
- SS3: 1,600,000
- SSG: 320,000,000,000
- SSB: 16,000,000,000,000 (For this example SSB is 50 times SSG)

Well, you can debate the implications that come afterwards, but like another poster showed, the fact that SSJ=SSG is indisputable. Goku and Vegeta got significantly stronger and Magetta, Cabba and Trunks were able to fight these really strong SSJ Saiyans. Therefore, they MUST be stronger than Super Saiyan God from BoG.

The Super Saiyan Goku who fought Beerus was no weaker, infact he was probably stronger right at the very end, than Super Saiyan God. That was said outright.

Yeah he was initially equal and then eventually surpassed SSG as stated by the narrator.

This would be Goku and Vegeta after they seemingly broke through some more limits while battling Merged Zamasu.

I agree that they probably got stronger fighting Merged Zamasu.

Super Saiyan Goku (U6) = Super Saiyan Cabba > Super Saiyan Goku (BoG) >= Super Saiyan God Goku

I agree with this 100%. Frankly, I don't see how you can make a coherent argument otherwise considering all the statements we received on the matter.

Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta
Hit

I think SSB Goku and Vegeta surpassed Golden Freeza by this point.

Grand Minister

Lol don't use the dub name! The dub name is so bad, he's the Grand Priest/Daishinkan.

Super Saiyan Anger Future Trunks
Super Saiyan Blue Goku (Rage Boost)
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black

Why do you have Trunks over them?

[Bullza]

I personally don't see a thing that confirms they surpass Black but that's me.

Well the way I have it, Goku Black surpassed them both when he came out with the Scythe and then Goku and Vegeta surpassed him back sometime in the middle of fighting Merged Zamasu. Twice Vegeta mentioned about Saiyans having no limits so I'd say they had a good boost somewhere.

As I said on the last page I think, Merged Zamasu hit them with a blast of lighting and they went straight out of blue. Then after that "no limits" comment and they went full power then they flew straight through it like it was nothing.

If they actually did power up during that fight then it would clear up a lot of previous confusion of why does Merged Zamasu only seem a bit stronger than Goku Black and why is Goku as strong as Vegeta when he didn't train etc.

Super Saiyan Goku being equal to God post BoG is insane. That would mean Super Saiyan Blue would be millions of times stronger than the Super Saiyan God from the BoG arc. I can't see that.

Well that is what they said. It was both said and shown. His Super Saiyan strength skyrocketed and that in turn caused his Base form to skyrocket to the point he surpassed Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

I have no idea what kind of gap there is between Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan Blue but I've just gone for fifty times because for simplicity's sake I'm taking Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black as being fifty times as strong as Goku Black.

[ZombieVito]

Yea, sorry. I can't agree with this.

I'll just rationalize it by saying that Super Saiyan form was boosted temporary by the power of God but returned to normal levels after the fight ended.

There's absolutely no way Basil or Lavender (Who are weaker than Boo) can give trouble to Saiyans that strong.

Well the way I have it, Goku Black surpassed them both when he came out with the Scythe and then Goku and Vegeta surpassed him back sometime in the middle of fighting Merged Zamasu. Twice Vegeta mentioned about Saiyans having no limits so I'd say they had a good boost somewhere.

As I said on the last page I think, Merged Zamasu hit them with a blast of lighting and they went straight out of blue. Then after that "no limits" comment and they went full power then they flew straight through it like it was nothing.

If they actually did power up during that fight then it would clear up a lot of previous confusion of why does Merged Zamasu only seem a bit stronger than Goku Black and why is Goku as strong as Vegeta when he didn't train etc.

I don't think this is entirely accurate. They did struggle and well, they charged at it together so it's not really weird for them to destroy the bird.

My problem here is that Vegeta was never said to power up. Trunks get's a comment from Shin that can be applied but Vegeta gets nothing. There's also not entirely impossible that Goku just caught up to Vegeta quickly and they then slacked off.