Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RecolorSaiyan]

How much stock do you guys put into the gohan threatening golden freeza line from episode 124? Do you at all or just dismiss it completely?

I mean while Gohan did get sadistic over enemies that he was superior to, he's never been the type to delusionally hype up his own power compared to others. In RoF, he straight up admitted he couldn't do anything vs 1st form freeza and now he basically told golden freeza to fuck off. Is it possible that u gohan was > golden freeza in episode 124 ?

[PFM18]

Yea, sorry. I can't agree with this.

I'll just rationalize it by saying that Super Saiyan form was boosted temporary by the power of God but returned to normal levels after the fight ended.

There's absolutely no way Basil or Lavender (Who are weaker than Boo) can give trouble to Saiyans that strong.

Well Basil and Lavender were explicitly recognized as being trash compared to Base Goku/Vegeta, they gave excuses for plot convenience reasons as to why they were able to do anything at all, but Basil and Lavender are NOTHING to Base Goku/Vegeta.

If the Saiyans weren't that strong, how can it be true that Tagoma destroyed Piccolo, SSJ Gohan beat him, got absolutely dominated by First Form Freeza, and then Freeza powers up to his final form that should be over a hundred times stronger than his First Form, is matched by Base Goku? How could Base Vegeta so easily dispose of SSJ3 Gotenks if Base Goku/Vegeta from the time of Namek to the BoG arc didn't surpass Namek Freeza? How could Base Goku go from less than Namek Freeza to SSJ3 Gotenks level if the Saiyans didn't get this strong from this? Why would Base Goku be able to entertain fighting Beerus? Why would Goku be so impressed with Buu for being able to get strong enough to compete with his Base form? Goku/Vegeta's Bases were portrayed as being extremely powerful throughout the entirety of Super.

I know this may come off as rude and I'm really trying not to be, but I'm just saying.\

How much stock do you guys put into the gohan threatening golden freeza line from episode 124? Do you at all or just dismiss it completely?

I mean while Gohan did get sadistic over enemies that he was superior to, he's never been the type to delusionally hype up his own power compared to others. In RoF, he straight up admitted he couldn't do anything vs 1st form freeza and now he basically told golden freeza to fuck off. Is it possible that u gohan was > golden freeza in episode 124 ?

Nah, I don't think it means much. It was just a one-off line. We see that Gohan is inferior to Golden Freeza because he couldn't damage Toppo whatsoever, his KHH was tanked with no damage, and Golden Freeza could actually damage Base Toppo.

[Bullza]

I think SSB Goku and Vegeta surpassed Golden Freeza by this point.

They possibly could have. There shouldn't be too much of a difference from how they were in the Universe 6 Saga to the Future Trunks saga because that was a matter of probably days but it depends whether or not they surpassed him with that three years of training.

I don't know if there's anything clear cut to say really. Before they went in they said they wouldn't improve much but when they were in there they said that they were. So I dunno that could go either way.

Lol don't use the dub name! The dub name is so bad, he's the Grand Priest/Daishinkan.

It is pretty bad. I also prefered Super Saiyan Rage over Super Saiyan Anger as well.

Why do you have Trunks over them?

Well after Goku snapped he put a whopping on Black. Then after Black powered up and got the Sword he beat Goku pretty much instantly.

Future Trunks after he powered up was close to that version of Black, enough to put up a good enough fight to blast him into a mountain. Maybe Goku could have done that if he wasn't taken by surprise but then that's a whole other bunch of assumption.

I'll just rationalize it by saying that Super Saiyan form was boosted temporary by the power of God but returned to normal levels after the fight ended.

That's impossible though because a year after that Goku fought Frieza in his Final Form who in just his First Form was far stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan. Then after that he fought evenly with Copy Vegeta who Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks couldn't budge.

And that was the entire reason why Vegeta had that six months of training with Whis as a headstart so that he could catch back up to where Goku was following that fight with Beerus. That is also why when Goku saw Vegeta he said he was unrecognisable.

My problem here is that Vegeta was never said to power up.

He isn't but it wasn't like a traditional power up scene anyway. They'd just be putting out a lot more power while being pressed. I see no reason why they kept mentioning Saiyans limits otherwise.

That cloud hit him once and he went right out of Super Saiyan Blue. Soon after though when they went "full power" they flew through an even more powerful one and that time they weren't shown to be harmed by it.

I'm talking about the lighting itself not the cloud.

[ZombieVito]

Well Basil and Lavender were explicitly recognized as being trash compared to Base Goku/Vegeta, they gave excuses for plot convenience reasons as to why they were able to do anything at all, but Basil and Lavender are NOTHING to Base Goku/Vegeta.

If the Saiyans weren't that strong, how can it be true that Tagoma destroyed Piccolo, SSJ Gohan beat him, got absolutely dominated by First Form Freeza, and then Freeza powers up to his final form that should be over a hundred times stronger than his First Form, is matched by Base Goku? How could Base Vegeta so easily dispose of SSJ3 Gotenks if Base Goku/Vegeta from the time of Namek to the BoG arc didn't surpass Namek Freeza? How could Base Goku go from less than Namek Freeza to SSJ3 Gotenks level if the Saiyans didn't get this strong from this? Why would Base Goku be able to entertain fighting Beerus? Why would Goku be so impressed with Buu for being able to get strong enough to compete with his Base form? Goku/Vegeta's Bases were portrayed as being extremely powerful throughout the entirety of Super.

I know this may come off as rude and I'm really trying not to be, but I'm just saying.\

The Trio de Danger weren't nothing to them. Hell, Goku and Vegeta turned Super Saiyan to beat them easily.

Freeza suppression's are self made. They shouldn't have a set multiplier.

Base Commeson Vegeta couldn't defused SS3 Gotenks in 5 minutes so they shouldn't be dimensions apart. This is a pretty clear indicator their base forms aren't extremely powerful.

[PFM18]

And that was the entire reason why Vegeta had that six months of training with Whis as a headstart so that he could catch back up to where Goku was following that fight with Beerus. That is also why when Goku saw Vegeta he said he was unrecognisable.

Exactly. Plot convenience dictated Chi Chi demanded that Goku just work during this time, so he stayed basically the same, meanwhile Vegeta is learning from Whis and has ki that is completely unrecognizable from where it was at on Earth. The only way Goku could possibly keep up, is if he retained that power, rendering it impossible for it to be temporary.

The Trio de Danger weren't nothing to them. Hell, Goku and Vegeta turned Super Saiyan to beat them easily.

Vegeta berates Goku for even having trouble with them in Base, literally calling them trash. Goku agrees, but says he is having trouble because he can't sense their ki and because of their teamwork. Is it a good explanation? No, not really, but they still recognized that Lavender and Basil are a joke compared to Base Goku/Vegeta but for plot reasons they had to not make it a one shot.

[Bullza]

Even before Vegeta left to train he said something about Goku having surpassed Super Saiyan God. Krillin asked to be punched by him to see how strong he'd become.

So at the absolute least, Goku was definitely intended to have had a major boost in strength following that fight and that seemed to be consistent until the Copy Vegeta saga.

Whether you wish to believe they retconned something after that point or something else but at the time I'm positive it was meant to be that way. He fought Beerus and came away from it enormously more powerful than he was before.

[PFM18]

So at the absolute least, Goku was definitely intended to have had a major boost in strength following that fight and that seemed to be consistent until the Copy Vegeta saga.

Even then it stayed consistent. The Future Trunks arc didn't really feature anyone weak enough for the Base Saiyans's power to be put on display. They had established pre-BoG Base Goku was weaker than Namek Freeza, and in the ToP arc Goku is impressed that Buu was able to improve in his training enough to compete with him. (In Base!!)

[Bullza]

I think people could start to question it at that point with how strong Trunks was shown to be. Logically he definitely shouldn't be as strong as Goku but if they intended him to be then so be it but I can why people wouldn't want to go along with it. Otherwise the saga was alright.

But it does get worse by the next saga, the Goku vs Gohan fight didn't help at all. Android 17 being so strong is a bit much to accept, he'd be multiple times as strong as the Super Saiyan God Goku who fought Beerus? That's really hard to swallow because with that kind of growth he could have shown up and killed Gohan Buu himself.

Android 18 defeats the Giant Ribrianne whereas Butterfly Ribrianne seems to have an edge on Goku. She also easily threw Tupper who was weighing down Goku so where does she lie in comparison?

Why is Master Roshi holding his own against Goku? Am I supposed to believe the seal boosted him up past Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks? Is Goku holding back again yet still needs a Kamehameha...

It got very complicated. I understand why people look for an alternative.

[PFM18]

I think people could start to question it at that point with how strong Trunks was shown to be. Logically he definitely shouldn't be as strong as Goku but if they intended him to be then so be it but I can why people wouldn't want to go along with it. Otherwise the saga was alright.

Yeah how they handled Trunks's power is the single biggest power scaling failure in Super. He was that strong mostly for plot convenience even if it was after 14 years with the first couple including Z-sword training presumably and the last couple being pushed to his limit fighting Black all the time.

Why is Master Roshi holding his own against Goku? Am I supposed to believe the seal boosted him up past Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks? Is Goku holding back again yet still needs a Kamehameha...

Well his ki flared up and a writer confirmed his power increased by the seal, and Goku still should have been suppressed to some extent.

But it does get worse by the next saga, the Goku vs Gohan fight didn't help at all.

It didn't help, but Goku was still suppressed. He admitted to being suppressed when Gohan asked and we receive no indication that this had changed.

Android 18 defeats the Giant Ribrianne whereas Butterfly Ribrianne seems to have an edge on Goku.

That shit was fucked.

She also easily threw Tupper who was weighing down Goku so where does she lie in comparison?

Tupper caught Goku off guard when he grabbed it.

[Miracles]

Don't understand where the bold is coming from?

Manga, Toyo and since Kefla with a mutated Super Saiyan 2 was already getting close to GoD tier, I see no reason to doubt this.

We have to doubt it cause Shin ASKED if Vegetto surpassed Beerus. And that was ONLY when he was powering up a final kamehameha. We know power level rises when one uses their final move. Even Toyo in an interview stated that he wasn't sure about Shin statement as true.

[ZombieVito]

We have to doubt it cause Shin ASKED if Vegetto surpassed Beerus. And that was ONLY when he was powering up a final kamehameha. We know power level rises when one uses their final move. Even Toyo in an interview stated that he wasn't sure about Shin statement as true.

The fact that he asked is enough. He's up there with Beerus.

[Marlowe89]

She also easily threw Tupper who was weighing down Goku so where does she lie in comparison?

Tupper weighing Goku down is an interesting scene because it plays out in almost exactly the same way in the manga; only instead of 18 coming to the rescue, Goku transforms, easily lifting Tupper off his back with his standard Super Saiyan form. That's a rather firm parallel.

In general, it's hard to ignore all the questionable instances like this in the anime's Tournament of Power. Ganos can hang with Goku for a bit, but transforms later and gets his ass kicked by Roshi. Vegeta can fire a barrage of ki blasts at Hop (who should be weaker than Basil and Lavender) only to have her effortlessly dodge them, charge at him and then have him on the ropes throughout the fight -- along with everyone else in Universe 9 -- until he finally decides to go Super Saiyan and wipes them. If he could one-shot them with SS, there's no reason he shouldn't have been able to do the same in base if he's as strong as some tend to purport. That's in addition to everything else you mentioned.

Manga, Toyo and since Kefla with a mutated Super Saiyan 2 was already getting close to GoD tier, I see no reason to doubt this.

You'd have to mix and match continuities, but there's nothing wrong with that in principle: A.) the manga was initially conceived to be a comicalization of the anime, and B.) the writers were literally inserting nods to it in their episodes. Episode 104 had the God-Blue switching strategy and its writer is a self-proclaimed fan. Toshio previously suggested that Toriyama is the ultimate authority on Super's battle powers, and Toriyama works closely with the manga. Etcetera etcetera.

I think that, to a point, people were supposed to take both mediums as different interpretations of the events themselves rather than their whole foundations of power scaling.

[Bullza]

In general, it's hard to ignore all the questionable instances like this in the anime's Tournament of Power. Ganos can hang with Goku for a bit, but transforms later and gets his ass kicked by Roshi. Vegeta can fire a barrage of ki blasts at Hop (who should be weaker than Basil and Lavender) only to have her effortlessly dodge them, charge at him and then have him on the ropes throughout the fight -- along with everyone else in Universe 9 -- until he finally decides to go Super Saiyan and wipes them. If he could one-shot them with SS, there's no reason he shouldn't have been able to do the same in base if he's as strong as some tend to purport. That's in addition to everything else you mentioned.

Yeah a lot of the consistency went away with that saga. I don't know if it's because they shifted emphasis on skill rather than power. Goku also felt the need to go Super Saiyan and even Super Saiyan Blue for Krillin. Yet didn't transform for Buu.

Everyone can seem to tangle with almost everyone. Ribrianne goes from Base Vegeta to Android 17. Master Roshi dodges punches from Jiren in the manga. Frieza had an advantage over Dyspo who gave Hit a tough time. Kale overpowered Super Saiyan Blue then got overpowered by Super Saiyan God. Gohan seemed to perform better against the U6 Namekians than Piccolo but the day before Piccolo was on par with Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

That many characters and that many writers they probably didn't even try to make them scale.

[PFM18]

Eh, I think the issues are exaggerated. Most of it is fairly sensible.

[Skar]

I never claimed to have some kind of exact quantity to how much Goku was suppressed. I recognize that Goku admitted to be holding back/testing Gohan, and we receive no indication that this has changed. We know Gohan was suppressed, but any anything further is conjecture. Obviously Goku and Gohan fighting evenly while Gohan accuses Goku of holding back and he admits to it, we know Goku is stronger than Gohan in equivalent forms. I Again, I never claimed that it was undeniable fact that Goku was using less than .1% of his power nor did I ever make that assertion in the first place.

In Dragonball, Vegeta was likely holding back in SSJ when he spared with kid Trunks. Based on the fact that Vegeta chose to remain in SSJ against him, we assume that SSJ Trunks is stronger than base Vegeta. In the Future Trunks manga chapter, Gohan fought against SSJ Trunks in base. The most straightforward conclusion to make from these scenes is that Vegeta and Gohan only used the form that was necessarily against their opponent and that's what most fans would likely assume when first viewing SSJ Goku vs SSJ Gohan in DBS. If the argument that Goku is near God tier in base then he should be well beyond SSJ Gohan so that raises the question of why he would transform into SSJ and then hold back to possibly less than his full power in base.

Yes. I open acknowledge that this was head canon. It is a logical deduction from what we know, however it is still head canon. But what is the alternative? The options to reconcile that scene are to say:

1. "LOL DBS power scaling sucks bro. It is so stupid"
2. "Kefla has a massively more potent fusion than Vegetto for no reason"
3. "Goku was already stated to have made the SSG power his own, so using it again doesn't yield the same boost as it did before."

I see option #3 to be the best option even if it is head canon.

Option 1 seems to be the easiest. I don't assume that the whole power scaling sucks but that there might be a few inconsistencies that they may have not intended for. Beerus used 10% of his power against Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta which wouldn't be that far off from the scale used in BoG. I've seen fans try to explain this by claiming Beerus was lying but that would mean a writer intentionally had Beerus throw out a specific percentage and expected for fans to come to the conclusion that he wasn't telling the truth. I took that percentage at face value because I assumed a writer wouldn't have bothered to include it if it wasn't true at some point. At the time of RoF, Goku went from his God ki-infused base to SSJB. If Option 3 was a thing and Goku was intended to have made SSG his own throughout the rest of DBS, what would be the point of turning SSJG again? Are we also supposed to assume SSJ1, SSJ2, and SSJ3 also offer a smaller boost than before? My problem with this sort of logic is that we're not assuming that SSJG has a different yield because a character commented on it in the story but because someone at Toei decided to have use the form again with no explanation therefore we are forced to make up with something to try and make it work. If the story never had him turn SSJG again, we wouldn't have to speculate that the yield may or not have changed and we would just continue to assume he doesn't need the form anymore since it was said he already absorbed its power.

But we don't know what was intended. We don't have the writers in front of us to explain what exactly they meant by any particular scene that may remotely be open to interpretation. It is pointless to speculate about their intentions.

No it's not pointless to speculate their intentions. Arguing that something isn't headcanon would mean that it's what the story is trying to convey. If they were asked these questions, it's not wrong to speculate what kind of answer they might give. In every interview we've seen whether it's with Toriyama or someone from Toei, the answers they give are pretty simple and straightforward. That's why I would assume they wouldn't be going to the same great lengths that fans go to piece it together.

[ZombieVito]

So for the people who believe Super Saiyan Goku = Super Saiyan God Goku.

Why didn't he used Super Saiyan 2 or 3? There's literally no reason for him to not use at least 2.

[PFM18]

So for the people who believe Super Saiyan Goku = Super Saiyan God Goku.

Why didn't he used Super Saiyan 2 or 3? There's literally no reason for him to not use at least 2.

It isn't really up for debate that SSJ=SSG. You can debate the specifics of what happened in the whole thing, but it was stated multiple times and demonstrated for almost two full episodes. It couldn't be any more clear, in fact by the end of it, it was SSJ>SSG according to the narrator and the episode title.

[ZombieVito]

It isn't really up for debate that SSJ=SSG. You can debate the specifics of what happened in the whole thing, but it was stated multiple times and demonstrated for almost two full episodes. It couldn't be any more clear, in fact by the end of it, it was SSJ>SSG according to the narrator and the episode title.

You still haven't answered my question.

If this Super Saiyan form is as strong as Super Saiyan God then why didn't he used 2 or 3 against Beerus?

[Bullza]

This was said in the following episode too.



I have no idea why he didn't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 though. Why didn't he use the Kaio-ken against Goku Black? Why didn't he transform at all for Monaka when he believes he's even stronger than himself?

There is no answer, you'd have to come up with your own theory as to why he didn't. In the movie he just used Super Saiyan, it seemed like Toriyama wanted to faze out Super Saiyan 2 and 3 so that's why it didn't appear at that point and the series just did what the movie did.

[PFM18]

I have no idea why he didn't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 though. Why didn't he use the Kaio-ken against Goku Black? Why didn't he transform at all for Monaka when he believes he's even stronger than himself?

There is no answer, you'd have to come up with your own theory as to why he didn't. In the movie he just used Super Saiyan, it seemed like Toriyama wanted to faze out Super Saiyan 2 and 3 so that's why it didn't appear at that point and the series just did what the movie did.

Exactly.