Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PFM18]

Yeah it actually was Super Saiyan 3 Kanba.

So you have Super Saiyan 4 Vegito > Super Saiyan 3 Kanba >>> Kanba > Super Saiyan Blue Vegito Kaio-ken. Wouldn't that make Super Saiyan 4 Vegito roughly 800 times as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegito?

Same with Super Fu and maybe Ultra Instinct Goku.

I don't really see a point in trying to rationalize what's going on in Heroes. I just turn my brain off lol.

[SSJgogeto]

Would the Super Saiyan Goku that tore into Frost be at the level he was when he fought Beerus, at the very least?

I'm really trying to figure out how strong Super Saiyan Goku was in Champa's tournament.

There's at least three theories:

1 - He was more or less in the same level of himself in Buu saga.
2 - He was using a transformation called Chou Super Saiyan.
3 - He was using Super Saiyan and god ki at the same time, like he did against Beerus.

[PFM18]

3 - He was using Super Saiyan and god ki at the same time, like he did against Beerus

what makes you think that he was using both at the same time against Beerus?

[SSJgogeto]

Because that's what happened, right? I mean, we SAW it.

Wait, what do you think happened there?

[Miracles]

So, how could SSJ surpass god yet be weaker than it later in the TOP?

Super Saiyan was as strong as Super Saiyan God at the time that Goku reverted from one form to the other. By the end of the fight and because Goku powered up more, Super Saiyan surpassed Super Saiyan God. That was said by Vegeta and Narrator.

By the time of the Tournament of Power, Super Saiyan God was now stronger than his Super Saiyan 3.

So perhaps once Goku had done the training and learned to become Super Saiyan God on his own and got control of the form then it was stronger at that point. Essentially you had Goku who became a Super Saiyan God, adapted to its strength and became as strong and then brought it out again on top of that later on.

Beerus was asking Goku where is the power of god and then Goku shows the power of SSG. However, it didn't say he was equal with SSJG...

Goku said he didn't feel any weaker and Beerus agreed with him. Even in the screenshot he commented "this is the power of Super Saiyan God" as he is in his normal SSJ form. Additionally, the narrator stated that his SSJ had surpassed SSG and the episode where he fights as SSJ mentions that he surpassed SSG.

The narrator said gods in in general, nothing about SSJ surpassing god...

[Zamasu55]

Super DB Heroes power levels make no damn sense.

Ssj Blue Vegito (after the ToP) with the Kaiohken didn't do crap to Base Cumber, yet SsjB Vegeta and Goku both held their own against his Golde Oozaru form.
Plus, Super Fu one-shots Cumber but his attack does not do any damage to Ssj4 Goku and Vegeta? Seriously? And how on earth is Ssj4 Xeno Vegito stronger than SsjB Vegito? And, considering that he managed to "defeat" (just temporarily) Ssj3 Cumber, this means that the gap's huge.

Nonsense.

[PFM18]

The narrator said gods in in general, nothing about SSJ surpassing god...

It shows Goku in his SSJ form and in this context "god(s)" clearly refers to "Super Saiyan God" and by extension the level that SSG was fighting at, was "level of gods." If there was any ambiguity, the episode title literally says that Goku surpassed Super Saiyan God and he is fighting as a SSJ for the entire episode. He just gained more power than he had just had as a SSJ which was stated to be equal to Super Saiyan God.

Super DB Heroes power levels make no damn sense.

Ssj Blue Vegito (after the ToP) with the Kaiohken didn't do crap to Base Cumber, yet SsjB Vegeta and Goku both held their own against his Golde Oozaru form.
Plus, Super Fu one-shots Cumber but his attack does not do any damage to Ssj4 Goku and Vegeta? Seriously? And how on earth is Ssj4 Xeno Vegito stronger than SsjB Vegito? And, considering that he managed to "defeat" (just temporarily) Ssj3 Cumber, this means that the gap's huge.

Nonsense.

Lol don't try to rationalize it. Just turn your brain off, you shouldn't expect this promotional anime that's just supposed to look cool to be consistent.

[Miracles]

The narrator said gods in in general, nothing about SSJ surpassing god...

It shows Goku in his SSJ form and in this context "god(s)" clearly refers to "Super Saiyan God" and by extension the level that SSG was fighting at, was "level of gods." If there was any ambiguity, the episode title literally says that Goku surpassed Super Saiyan God and he is fighting as a SSJ for the entire episode. He just gained more power than he had just had as a SSJ which was stated to be equal to Super Saiyan God.

Goku who "HAD" surpassed the level of "gods..."This is a general statement encompassing the whole fight against Beerus. There is no specific objective statement about SSJ surpassing god.

[Bullza]

Look at the image I posted on page 1349. Vegeta says he surpassed Super Saiyan God specifically.

[PFM18]

The narrator said gods in in general, nothing about SSJ surpassing god...

It shows Goku in his SSJ form and in this context "god(s)" clearly refers to "Super Saiyan God" and by extension the level that SSG was fighting at, was "level of gods." If there was any ambiguity, the episode title literally says that Goku surpassed Super Saiyan God and he is fighting as a SSJ for the entire episode. He just gained more power than he had just had as a SSJ which was stated to be equal to Super Saiyan God.

Goku who "HAD" surpassed the level of "gods..."This is a general statement encompassing the whole fight against Beerus. There is no specific objective statement about SSJ surpassing god.

That's obviously what it was referring to. If there's any ambiguity, there's the episode title and other comment about surpassing Super Saiyan God.

Because that's what happened, right? I mean, we SAW it.

Wait, what do you think happened there?

Well, we get no indication that he was mixing normal ki and God Ki. They specifically emphasize that he is able to be sensed and that he is using normal ki.

Goku adapted to the power and "made it his own" and "infused it within himself" this was not a result of "Oh he was using some of his normal ki and some of the ki from Super Saiyan God."

[Miracles]

Look at the image I posted on page 1349. Vegeta says he surpassed Super Saiyan God specifically.

What episode is that?

It shows Goku in his SSJ form and in this context "god(s)" clearly refers to "Super Saiyan God" and by extension the level that SSG was fighting at, was "level of gods." If there was any ambiguity, the episode title literally says that Goku surpassed Super Saiyan God and he is fighting as a SSJ for the entire episode. He just gained more power than he had just had as a SSJ which was stated to be equal to Super Saiyan God.

Goku who "HAD" surpassed the level of "gods..."This is a general statement encompassing the whole fight against Beerus. There is no specific objective statement about SSJ surpassing god.

That's obviously what it was referring to. If there's any ambiguity, there's the episode title and other comment about surpassing Super Saiyan God."

I understand about the title. However, there is nothing confirming the title. Especially when Beerus himself is asking where the SSJ god power is. I don't know about the other statement. The only direct objective statement we have on the relationship between god and SSJ is from BOG movie. Where Beerus said SSJ is powered down from god. Looks like Super TV continued that theme.

[Bullza]

What episode is that?

Episode 15 I think. It was after he fought Beerus and before he went to his planet.

[SSJgogeto]

Well, we get no indication that he was mixing normal ki and God Ki. They specifically emphasize that he is able to be sensed and that he is using normal ki.

Goku adapted to the power and "made it his own" and "infused it within himself" this was not a result of "Oh he was using some of his normal ki and some of the ki from Super Saiyan God."

But "God’s crimson radiance still burns inside you like a flame" while being Super Saiyan is a good indication. His ki could be sensed so there wasn't entirely god(ly) ki, and the god ki was still there and Beerus could feel it, so there wasn't entirely normal ki.

[PFM18]

Well, we get no indication that he was mixing normal ki and God Ki. They specifically emphasize that he is able to be sensed and that he is using normal ki.

Goku adapted to the power and "made it his own" and "infused it within himself" this was not a result of "Oh he was using some of his normal ki and some of the ki from Super Saiyan God."

But "God’s crimson radiance still burns inside you like a flame" while being Super Saiyan is a good indication. His ki could be sensed so there wasn't entirely god(ly) ki, and the god ki was still there and Beerus could feel it, so there wasn't entirely normal ki.

Yeah he has retained the power that he had as Super Saiyan God. He has made that power his own, that comment about the "crimson radiance" is just another verbatim used to reiterate that, there's no indication that there is any God Ki involved. Otherwise, it would have been mentioned by Beerus or Whis when everybody is sensing Goku as a SSJ and they conclude that he was then using regular ki. Essentially, we are told that he is using normal ki and aren't given any reason to believe anything more nuanced than that.

[SSJgogeto]

So, seems that we have reached a dead end. You believe the "crimson radiance" is just a verbatim and I believe that's a indication.

Anyway, I think this answers your question from before.

[Marlowe89]

Look at the image I posted on page 1349. Vegeta says he surpassed Super Saiyan God specifically.

They also specifically used the term "level of the gods" there. That's the whole conundrum: BoG indicates post-absorption Super Saiyan Goku = level of the gods, while US explicitly indicates (via the exhibition match) Super Saiyan Goku < level of the gods. Bolstering the latter, there's recent Broly material that specifically confirms Vegeta reached the level of the gods by obtaining Super Saiyan God through Whis's training.

They can't both be correct.

That's why the retcon interpretation remains a valid one that also happens to be supplemented by a lot of things shown in the actual tournament as well as film merchandise.

[Bullza]

If there was a retcon I'd think maybe it was with the Universe Survival Saga. Might be why Super Saiyan God only made a reappearance there.

[Miracles]

What episode is that?

Episode 15 I think. It was after he fought Beerus and before he went to his planet.

Ah, thank you...





Looks like this too is a general statement. Doesn't say SSJ is stronger than red. We know Goku evolved in red during the fight with Beerus too.

[Koitsukai]

There really is no way to take DB Heroes seriously, I think it's kinda of like when some movie character gets invited to SNL or a talk show and they do some skit for laughs and, I don't know, Conan O'Brien knocks down Iron Man. I watch it just for the entertainment.

[Bullza]

Looks like this too is a general statement. Doesn't say SSJ is stronger than red. We know Goku evolved in red during the fight with Beerus too.

Well they aren't going to be that needlessly specific in the dialogue. We know that it was Super Saiyan that was stronger than Super Saiyan God, he didn't fight using any other form.

The episode that was called "Goku, Surpass Saiyan God" was the one where he turned back into a Super Saiyan.

Beerus said that Goku and Vegeta had become much stronger after they're training. That's why he was prepared to fight them again. This was before they had learned to become Super Saiyan God on their own.