How strong are Android 18 and Piccolo are after the ToP?

[zarmack]

Piccolo actually did go into the ROSAT a 2nd time after Goku pointed out he still was no where near Perfect Cell's level after his 1st turn.

No. He did not.

Also, if Piccolo didn't get much stronger since the Cell Games, he would have never been able to beat up SSJ2 Gohan in their training,

I don't care about Toei-only material. It's about as legitimate as base Goku beating Ultimate Gohan in Z filler.

Piccolo flat out said he was going in the ROSAT again after Goku pointed out he was still weaker than Perfect Cell. There is no evidence that he didn't.

And enough with the "DBS manga is more valid" nonsense. If powerscaling is the reason why you disregard the anime version, note that Base Gohan matching SSJ Kefla with just a short time training is far more ridiculous than anything in the anime version.

[RandomGuy96]

Piccolo actually did go into the ROSAT a 2nd time after Goku pointed out he still was no where near Perfect Cell's level after his 1st turn.

No. He did not.

Also, if Piccolo didn't get much stronger since the Cell Games, he would have never been able to beat up SSJ2 Gohan in their training,

I don't care about Toei-only material. It's about as legitimate as base Goku beating Ultimate Gohan in Z filler.

Piccolo flat out said he was going in the ROSAT again after Goku pointed out he was still weaker than Perfect Cell.

Too bad he never said that.

And enough with the "DBS manga is more valid" nonsense.

Hmmm... no.

If powerscaling is the reason why you disregard the anime version, note that Base Gohan matching SSJ Kefla with just a short time training is far more ridiculous than anything in the anime version.

Ultimate Gohan getting to SSB level is apparently in Toriyama's outline since it happens in both the manga and anime, though the manga at least tried to give the explanation that he'd been training in the gravity chamber for a couple of years. In the anime he literally jumped in power from weaker to Piccolo to stronger than SSG in one day.

[zarmack]

Ultimate Gohan getting to SSB level is apparently in Toriyama's outline since it happens in both the manga and anime, though the manga at least tried to give the explanation that he'd been training in the gravity chamber for a couple of years. In the anime he literally jumped in power from weaker to Piccolo to stronger than SSG in one day.

Its Base Gohan. Ultimate Gohan's hair resembles SSJ2 with the bang and extra spiky, which wasn't there in the manga. Even if it was Ultimate Gohan in the manga, that's still a bigger asspull than anything in the anime since he was able to match SSJ Kefla, who should have been way beyond him since Berzerk Kale alone was already CSSB level. Compine that with the potara multiplier and Gohan in any form shouldn't have stand a change against her.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I never saw Gohan in the anime as being as strong as SSJB Goku. Goku did use Kaio-ken in his sparring match with him but I put that in the same category as his fights with Krillin, 17, Buu, and Roshi in the recruitment arc.

[PFM18]

Ultimate Gohan getting to SSB level is apparently in Toriyama's outline since it happens in both the manga and anime, though the manga at least tried to give the explanation that he'd been training in the gravity chamber for a couple of years. In the anime he literally jumped in power from weaker to Piccolo to stronger than SSG in one day.

Its Base Gohan. Ultimate Gohan's hair resembles SSJ2 with the bang and extra spiky, which wasn't there in the manga. Even if it was Ultimate Gohan in the manga, that's still a bigger asspull than anything in the anime since he was able to match SSJ Kefla, who should have been way beyond him since Berzerk Kale alone was already CSSB level. Compine that with the potara multiplier and Gohan in any form shouldn't have stand a change against her.

If it was Base Gohan why wouldn't he go SSJ that entire time?

[RandomGuy96]

Ultimate Gohan getting to SSB level is apparently in Toriyama's outline since it happens in both the manga and anime, though the manga at least tried to give the explanation that he'd been training in the gravity chamber for a couple of years. In the anime he literally jumped in power from weaker to Piccolo to stronger than SSG in one day.

Its Base Gohan. Ultimate Gohan's hair resembles SSJ2 with the bang and extra spiky, which wasn't there in the manga.

"Ultimate Gohan" isn't a form, literally the only actual difference is the eyes. Which are clearly present in the tournament.

Compine that with the potara multiplier.

"The Potara multiplier" is fan fiction, much like your made up line from Piccolo. There's zero evidence that any sort of multiplier applies when the fusions are massively far apart in power.

[PFM18]

I never saw Gohan in the anime as being as strong as SSJB Goku. Goku did use Kaio-ken in his sparring match with him but I put that in the same category as his fights with Krillin, 17, Buu, and Roshi in the recruitment arc.

Yeah. Toppo was equal to SSB Vegeta/Goku and he dominated Gohan. On the other hand in the manga, Kale shows she is CSSB level, fuses with Caulifla, and then STILL is only even with this obscenely, ridiculously powerful Gohan. Either the potara boost inconspicuously disappeared or Gohan is dozens of times stronger than his father despite doing absolutely nothing special and just training in the time chamber.

It's funny because when Gohan deflected Kefla's blast everyone was like "there will probably be an explanation!" or "we don't know that he's that strong! You guys are jumping the gun!"

"The Potara multiplier" is fan fiction, much like your made up line from Piccolo. There's zero evidence that any sort of multiplier applies when the fusions are massively far apart in power.

Either way, Gohan/Kefla are both stronger than Goku/Vegeta while simultaneously not at the same time. Vados says Kefla is "unmatched on the battle field" but Gohan draws with her and is implied to be weaker than Goku at the same time. So not only did Gohan inconspicuously get tremendously stronger without any explanation as to how he got his Ultimate form back or even acknowledging his Ultimate form at all, but Kefla somehow is barely stronger than one of her potara fusion components which was thoroughly established to be an immense boost in power.

[zarmack]

Ultimate Gohan getting to SSB level is apparently in Toriyama's outline since it happens in both the manga and anime, though the manga at least tried to give the explanation that he'd been training in the gravity chamber for a couple of years. In the anime he literally jumped in power from weaker to Piccolo to stronger than SSG in one day.

Its Base Gohan. Ultimate Gohan's hair resembles SSJ2 with the bang and extra spiky, which wasn't there in the manga. Even if it was Ultimate Gohan in the manga, that's still a bigger asspull than anything in the anime since he was able to match SSJ Kefla, who should have been way beyond him since Berzerk Kale alone was already CSSB level. Compine that with the potara multiplier and Gohan in any form shouldn't have stand a change against her.

If it was Base Gohan why wouldn't he go SSJ that entire time?

He said he didn't want to rely on his saiyan side anymore or something to that effect in the manga.

[PFM18]

Its Base Gohan. Ultimate Gohan's hair resembles SSJ2 with the bang and extra spiky, which wasn't there in the manga. Even if it was Ultimate Gohan in the manga, that's still a bigger asspull than anything in the anime since he was able to match SSJ Kefla, who should have been way beyond him since Berzerk Kale alone was already CSSB level. Compine that with the potara multiplier and Gohan in any form shouldn't have stand a change against her.

If it was Base Gohan why wouldn't he go SSJ that entire time?

He said he didn't want to rely on his saiyan side anymore or something to that effect in the manga.

He does(aside from that line being incredibly stupid) his life and everyone else's lives are on the line, so if he could go SSJ he would have. It's his Ultimate state, it is defined by the eyes more so than anything else, I originally thought it was the bang, which is defining, the most defining aspect of the Ultimate state is the eyes.

"The Potara multiplier" is fan fiction, much like your made up line from Piccolo. There's zero evidence that any sort of multiplier applies when the fusions are massively far apart in power.

The exactly multiplier is fiction, but even if it may be less potent than if they were equals, it is still supposed to yield a very large power increase. And Caulifla isn't even THAT much further in more from Kale, the only time there was any question if there would be a power increase was when Goku was thinking about fusing with Satan. The difference between Goku and Satan is MUCH larger than the difference between Caulifla and Kale so it is kind of a moot point.

[zarmack]

I never saw Gohan in the anime as being as strong as SSJB Goku. Goku did use Kaio-ken in his sparring match with him but I put that in the same category as his fights with Krillin, 17, Buu, and Roshi in the recruitment arc.

That's a false analogy. As SSB Goku and Gohan where outright stated to be on par by the narrator, and Goku never uses Kaioken against anyone unless he's forced to. Plus, Gohan and A17 have too many feats in the anime that show that they are at least SSB level.

And Base Toppo was definitely stronger than normal SSB Goku at the start of the ToP, since he was able to force Goku into SSBKKx?? in the preliminaries.

[PFM18]

I never saw Gohan in the anime as being as strong as SSJB Goku. Goku did use Kaio-ken in his sparring match with him but I put that in the same category as his fights with Krillin, 17, Buu, and Roshi in the recruitment arc.

That's a false analogy. As SSB Goku and Gohan where outright stated to be on par by the narrator, and Goku never uses Kaioken against anyone unless he's forced to. Plus, Gohan and A17 have too many feats in the anime that show that they are at least SSB level.

And Base Toppo was definitely stronger than normal SSB Goku at the start of the ToP, since he was able to force Goku into SSBKKx?? in the preliminaries.

He was even with Base Toppo as a SSB apparently, especially since Vegeta is Goku's equal and he was even with Base Goku. SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta. Base Toppo and Golden Freeza are all dead even with each other, and Gohan did absolutely nothing to Toppo. Gohan is significantly below SSB

[zarmack]

Ultimate Gohan getting to SSB level is apparently in Toriyama's outline since it happens in both the manga and anime, though the manga at least tried to give the explanation that he'd been training in the gravity chamber for a couple of years. In the anime he literally jumped in power from weaker to Piccolo to stronger than SSG in one day.

Its Base Gohan. Ultimate Gohan's hair resembles SSJ2 with the bang and extra spiky, which wasn't there in the manga.

"Ultimate Gohan" isn't a form, literally the only actual difference is the eyes. Which are clearly present in the tournament.

Compine that with the potara multiplier.

"The Potara multiplier" is fan fiction, much like your made up line from Piccolo. There's zero evidence that any sort of multiplier applies when the fusions are massively far apart in power.

1. Its clearly Base Gohan, and yes "Ultimate Gohan" is treated like a transformation by the series, since he could clearly go in and out of the state.

2. The Potara multiplier is a reality, you are just in denial:
https://i.neoseeker.com/mgv/870828/828/36/1tlTK4.png
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/or ... fusion.png

Its either partner A's power times that of partner B's (according to Daizenshuu 7 and the Super Exciting Guide) or both partner's max power added together then multiplied by "tens of times" (according to Vados in the anime): https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/or ... -26-25.png

And there's nothing there about whether the partner's power gap effects the boost, so you just made that up.

[PFM18]

Its Base Gohan. Ultimate Gohan's hair resembles SSJ2 with the bang and extra spiky, which wasn't there in the manga.

"Ultimate Gohan" isn't a form, literally the only actual difference is the eyes. Which are clearly present in the tournament.

Compine that with the potara multiplier.

"The Potara multiplier" is fan fiction, much like your made up line from Piccolo. There's zero evidence that any sort of multiplier applies when the fusions are massively far apart in power.

1. Its clearly Base Gohan, and yes "Ultimate Gohan" is treated like a transformation by the series, since he could clearly go in and out of the state.

2. The Potara multiplier is a reality, you are just in denial:
https://i.neoseeker.com/mgv/870828/828/36/1tlTK4.png
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/or ... fusion.png

Its either partner A's power times that of partner B's (according to Daizenshuu 7 and the Super Exciting Guide) or both partner's max power added together then multiplied by "tens of times" (according to Vados in the anime): https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/or ... -26-25.png

And there's nothing there about whether the partner's power gap effects the boost, so you just made that up.

Well the A*B crap is more of an oversight than anything else. It doesn't make any sense because the units by which you measure power is completely arbitrary.

[zarmack]

I never saw Gohan in the anime as being as strong as SSJB Goku. Goku did use Kaio-ken in his sparring match with him but I put that in the same category as his fights with Krillin, 17, Buu, and Roshi in the recruitment arc.

That's a false analogy. As SSB Goku and Gohan where outright stated to be on par by the narrator, and Goku never uses Kaioken against anyone unless he's forced to. Plus, Gohan and A17 have too many feats in the anime that show that they are at least SSB level.

And Base Toppo was definitely stronger than normal SSB Goku at the start of the ToP, since he was able to force Goku into SSBKKx?? in the preliminaries.

He was even with Base Toppo as a SSB apparently, especially since Vegeta is Goku's equal and he was even with Base Goku. SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta. Base Toppo and Golden Freeza are all dead even with each other, and Gohan did absolutely nothing to Toppo. Gohan is significantly below SSB

Base Toppo also tanked SSB Goku's Kamehameha like nothing in the preliminaries. He was definitely stronger than normal SSB Goku, and normal SSB Vegeta was shown to be stronger than both Golden Freeza and even SSBKK Goku (Pre-UI). Just compare normal SSB Vegeta's fight with Jiren in ep.122 to that of SSBKK Goku's fight with Jiren in the hour special. Gohan, A17 and Golden Freeza needed to team up just to deal with Base Toppo. They clearly weren't all equal.

So just because Gohan was getting beaten up by Base Toppo doesn't mean he isn't SSB level. Gohan in the anime also has other feats in the anime that show that he's SSB level, like soloing Koichiarator, who SSB Goku & SSB Vegeta needed to team up against to beat.

[zarmack]

Well the A*B crap is more of an oversight than anything else. It doesn't make any sense because the units by which you measure power is completely arbitrary.

That's an Appeal to Incredulity fallacy. Just because something official doesn't make sense or causes plot holes and whatnot doesn't mean it isn't valid to the series.

[PFM18]

Base Toppo also tanked SSB Goku's Kamehameha like nothing in the preliminaries

No he didn't. Toppo had scratches and bruises all across his body in addition to his uniform being ripped. Considering there's no blood, that is about the extent of the damage that can be shown in this show.

He was definitely stronger than normal SSB Goku, and normal SSB Vegeta was shown to be stronger than both Golden Freeza and even SSBKK Goku (Pre-UI).

What? How the hell was SSB Vegeta stronger than SSBKK Goku? If you say it is because he had to use it against Toppo then this is circular reasoning.

Just compare normal SSB Vegeta's fight with Jiren in ep.122 to that of SSBKK Goku's fight with Jiren in the hour special

122 Jiren is weaker than the one in the special as Vegeta stated himself. "You were faster and stronger when you fought Kakarot" obviously referring to the first time him and Goku had fought. Vegeta felt disrespected. Also, Vegeta doing so well was because he predicted Jiren's movements as was stated and clearly shown.

Gohan, A17 and Golden Freeza needed to team up just to deal with Base Toppo.

They didn't all team up, Gohan wasn't involved at all. It was just 17 and Freeza vs Toppo. and since SSB Goku=Golden Freeza and SSB Vegeta, and SSB Vegeta was equal to Toppo, they are equals. And Toppo was overpowering 17 but never Freeza.

Base Toppo~Golden Freeza>Android 17>Ultimate Gohan

[Polyphase Avatron]

Honestly the powerscaling for DBS is bad enough but if you try to reconcile the anime and the manga it just becomes impossible. So I think the best option here is to just let everyone have their own interpretation, as you can't really prove one over the other.

[PFM18]

Honestly the powerscaling for DBS is bad enough but if you try to reconcile the anime and the manga it just becomes impossible. So I think the best option here is to just let everyone have their own interpretation, as you can't really prove one over the other.

It's really not that bad especially when compared to Z if you include all the garbage filler.

[RandomGuy96]

1. Its clearly Base Gohan,

It isn't. Look at the eyes.

and yes "Ultimate Gohan" is treated like a transformation by the series,

It's only treated as a transformation in Toei productions and video games. Toriyama's manga makes it clear that it isn't:

Chapter: 496 (DBZ 302), P7.2-3
Context: after Gohan changes into the ‘mightiest of warriors’
Goku: “It re-really is incredible…It’s super-duper…! Absolutely unbelievable…Your appearance has hardly changed…And you ain’t even a Super Saiyan…Yet you’ve been taken to su-such an extreme…”
Elder Kaioshin: “Hmph, transforming isn’t good. That Super whatever-its-called is the wrong way of doing things.”

I like how you have to concoct your own convoluted fan fiction scenarios (like Gohan still needing to turn Super Saiyan in the manga or Potara making boosting everybody's strengths by the same amount as Vegetto's) to have even the slightest chance at making the manga look as inconsistent as the average anime episode. And you still fail.

The Potara multiplier is a reality,

Wrong. That's Vegetto's multiplier. There's no general "Potara" multiplier. The idea that it applies the same boost to everyone is pure fan fiction. Shin, for example, clearly didn't get millions of times stronger by fusing with Kibito.

Vados in the anime

Yep, right into the garbage.

And there's nothing there about whether the partner's power gap effects the boost, so you just made that up.

1. There actually is, unlike your made-up comment about Piccolo taking a second ROSAT trip.

Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P2.5
Context: Goku contemplates merging with Mister Satan
Goku: “It-it’s no use doing it with Satan…If things go bad, ain’t I gonna get weaker than I am now…!?”

Please do try to keep up.

2. The positive claim being made is that every Potara fusion has a base "multiplier" and that this multiplier is identical to Vegetto's, there is literally zero proof of either of these things.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Honestly the powerscaling for DBS is bad enough but if you try to reconcile the anime and the manga it just becomes impossible. So I think the best option here is to just let everyone have their own interpretation, as you can't really prove one over the other.

It's really not that bad especially when compared to Z if you include all the garbage filler.

I usually don't though.