Things that grind your gears

[zarmack]

To put it in simpler terms: nobody cares about the world your story is set in if the story is boring or bad. Most of DBs lore is either stupid or a hodgepodge of various guides, statements,... that don't form a cohesive whole by any stretch but people don't care because they like the action or Goku or whatever.

That doesn't explain the success of Xenoverse (which is all about DB's lore) or why the Saiyan and Namek arcs were so successful compared to the rest of the franchise (the new lore was precisely what made those arcs stood out narrative-wise and they portrayed Goku's and Piccolo's characters in a whole new light).

[ekrolo2]

To put it in simpler terms: nobody cares about the world your story is set in if the story is boring or bad. Most of DBs lore is either stupid or a hodgepodge of various guides, statements,... that don't form a cohesive whole by any stretch but people don't care because they like the action or Goku or whatever.

That doesn't explain the success of Xenoverse (which is all about DB's lore) or why the Saiyan and Namek arcs were so successful compared to the rest of the franchise (the new lore was precisely what made those arcs stood out narrative-wise and they portrayed Goku's and Piccolo's characters in a whole new light).

Xenoverse is successful because its a Dragon Ball product, you could sell shards of glass as Dragon Ball cereal and you'll run out of people before you do revenue. It's basically every fanboys wet dream too: YOU can now travel across all the story arcs of Dragon Ball (that people care about by and large) and get to self insert for realzes into the series!
The Saiyan and Namek arcs were so successful because they were building off of audience excitement from prior arcs, it's not like the series just blew up because we started getting lore. The Daimao arc also vastly expanded the series lore too and it didn't cause a boom like the Saiyan and Namek arcs.

[ABED]

What does it even mean to say it got more popular because it added lore? Were people that excited because DB added aliens? I would argue the Saiyan arc was so successful because Toriyama was firing on all cylinders. The characters, the fights, the tension, the emotion.

[Doctor.]

Xenoverse is successful because you can create your own OC Donut Steel. There's literally no other reason why that piece of shit game is popular.

[zarmack]

To put it in simpler terms: nobody cares about the world your story is set in if the story is boring or bad. Most of DBs lore is either stupid or a hodgepodge of various guides, statements,... that don't form a cohesive whole by any stretch but people don't care because they like the action or Goku or whatever.

That doesn't explain the success of Xenoverse (which is all about DB's lore) or why the Saiyan and Namek arcs were so successful compared to the rest of the franchise (the new lore was precisely what made those arcs stood out narrative-wise and they portrayed Goku's and Piccolo's characters in a whole new light).

Xenoverse is successful because its a Dragon Ball product, you could sell shards of glass as Dragon Ball cereal and you'll run out of people before you do revenue. It's basically every fanboys wet dream too: YOU can now travel across all the story arcs of Dragon Ball (that people care about by and large) and get to self insert for realzes into the series!
The Saiyan and Namek arcs were so successful because they were building off of audience excitement from prior arcs, it's not like the series just blew up because we started getting lore. The Daimao arc also vastly expanded the series lore too and it didn't cause a boom like the Saiyan and Namek arcs.

All the arcs in the original manga build the off the excitement of previous ones, so that doesn't explain why the Saiyan and Namek arcs particularly stood out.

And the King Piccolo arc actually did cause a noticeable boom in popularity compared to previous arcs (in fact, it was the success of the Piccolo arc that inspired Toriyama into writing Z) in part because of the new lore and also because it was the first dead serious DB story.

And of course, none of this new lore would have worked if said lore didn't develop the characters in any way, nor led to any interesting story.

[zarmack]

What does it even mean to say it got more popular because it added lore? Were people that excited because DB added aliens? I would argue the Saiyan arc was so successful because Toriyama was firing on all cylinders. The characters, the fights, the tension, the emotion.

The Piccolo arc did the same thing, yet its impact wasn't anywhere near as big in Japan (or elsewhere) as the Saiyan and Namek arcs.

[ABED]

What does it even mean to say it got more popular because it added lore? Were people that excited because DB added aliens? I would argue the Saiyan arc was so successful because Toriyama was firing on all cylinders. The characters, the fights, the tension, the emotion.

The Piccolo arc did the same thing, yet its impact wasn't anywhere near as big in Japan (or elsewhere) as the Saiyan and Namek arcs.

The series was constantly building in popularity. You can't take it in isolation. What the hell are you talking about with lore? Do you think people started reading it because Goku's an alien? And do you think the addition of demons is what helped boost DB's popularity? What about new lore supposedly creates these booms?

It bugs me when people talk about lore as though it's something separate from the story.

[zarmack]

The series was constantly building in popularity. You can't take it in isolation.

The gap in popularity between the Piccolo arc and everything before was noteworthy to Shonen Jump. And the popularity jump between the Saiyan and Piccolo arcs was even bigger. It wasn't a mere gradual increase overtime.

What the hell are you talking about with lore? Do you think people started reading it because Goku's an alien?

Apparently, more people did because of the story/revelations about Goku's origins. Ever wondered why Z/Kai works so well as a starting point for the series?

[ABED]

That is such a reductive "analysis". Why would people give a shit about Goku being an alien if they don't care about him? I started with DBZ like a lot of people and it wasn't the revelation that he's alien that brought me into the series. Why would it? We're just meeting him. It's the quirky characters, great artwork, humor, and awesome battles that got me. It's a high point in Toriyama's story.

Ever wondered why Z/Kai works so well as a starting point for the series?

It doesn't when you think about it. It just happens to be in large part because the previous stories had been wrapped up, but it's not a starting point.

Why are you just answering questions with questions? Tell me why someone would care about a character being an alien when they don't know who he is.

[zarmack]

Xenoverse is successful because its a Dragon Ball product, you could sell shards of glass as Dragon Ball cereal and you'll run out of people before you do revenue. It's basically every fanboys wet dream too: YOU can now travel across all the story arcs of Dragon Ball (that people care about by and large) and get to self insert for realzes into the series!

And why would anyone want to playthrough any of DB's story with their OCs if said story/lore was uninteresting? They would have just made it a simple 3D brawler with no story mode if that was the case. Xenoverse adds new DLC story arcs with every major update, they wouldn't bother if nobody thought it was interesting.

[ekrolo2]

Xenoverse is successful because its a Dragon Ball product, you could sell shards of glass as Dragon Ball cereal and you'll run out of people before you do revenue. It's basically every fanboys wet dream too: YOU can now travel across all the story arcs of Dragon Ball (that people care about by and large) and get to self insert for realzes into the series!

And why would anyone want to playthrough any of DB's story with their OCs if said story/lore was uninteresting? They would have just made it a simple 3D brawler with no story mode if that was the case. Xenoverse adds new DLC story arcs with every major update, they wouldn't bother if nobody thought it was interesting.

They want to play it because they want to see themselves interact with Goku or fight Freeza, the lore is not what makes it appealing, it's getting to see yourself fight alongside a cast of characters you find appealing and living out some childhood fantasy. Nobody, I repeat NOBODY but the diest of die-hard fans (and even then it's not a guarantee) will play a video game for lore, and even fewer JUST because of the lore.

[zarmack]

That is such a reductive "analysis". Why would people give a shit about Goku being an alien if they don't care about him? I started with DBZ like a lot of people and it wasn't the revelation that he's alien that brought me into the series. Why would it? We're just meeting him. It's the quirky characters, great artwork, humor, and awesome battles that got me. It's a high point in Toriyama's story.

Ever wondered why Z/Kai works so well as a starting point for the series?

It doesn't when you think about it. It just happens to be in large part because the previous stories had been wrapped up, but it's not a starting point.

Why are you just answering questions with questions? Tell me why someone would care about a character being an alien when they don't know who he is?

Because the idea of being from alien race of planet-killing warriors is inherently cool. The Saiyans are the most popular characters for a reason, even the minor ones have sizeable fanbases.

[ABED]

Again, such reductive logic. People came into the series in droves because they all love aliens. It doesn't take into account execution.

The idea that the Saiyans are the most popular because they are aliens is silly. It doesn't take into account the quality of the characters. People like the Saiyans a lot because they are badass fighters. The Namekians are aliens, but aren't as popular.

[zarmack]

Xenoverse is successful because its a Dragon Ball product, you could sell shards of glass as Dragon Ball cereal and you'll run out of people before you do revenue. It's basically every fanboys wet dream too: YOU can now travel across all the story arcs of Dragon Ball (that people care about by and large) and get to self insert for realzes into the series!

And why would anyone want to playthrough any of DB's story with their OCs if said story/lore was uninteresting? They would have just made it a simple 3D brawler with no story mode if that was the case. Xenoverse adds new DLC story arcs with every major update, they wouldn't bother if nobody thought it was interesting.

They want to play it because they want to see themselves interact with Goku or fight Freeza, the lore is not what makes it appealing, it's getting to see yourself fight alongside a cast of characters you find appealing and living out some childhood fantasy. Nobody, I repeat NOBODY but the diest of die-hard fans (and even then it's not a guarantee) will play a video game for lore, and even fewer JUST because of the lore.

You don't speak for most of the fandom. Why would many of these same players even bother with or demand a story mode if they merely want their OCs to interact with main cast?

[zarmack]

Again, such reductive logic. People came into the series in droves because they all love aliens. Are aliens so cool that all a story has to do to become more popular is add aliens?

The idea that the Saiyans are the most popular because they are aliens is silly. It doesn't take into account the quality of the characters. People like the Saiyans a lot because they are badass fighters. The Namekians are aliens, but aren't as popular.

You are the one making reductive fallacies. I never said him merely being an alien is what made him popular. I said the saiyans are popular because their a race of savage fighters.

[ABED]

You don't speak for most of the fandom.

Neither do you. You honestly think people gave a damn about Goku being revealed an alien so much they tuned in in greater numbers and all this regardless of execution.

You are the one making reductive fallacies. I never said him merely being an alien is what made him popular. I said the saiyans are popular because their a race of savage fighters.

Fair enough, and I realized that afterward, but doesn't change the fact that the idea alone won't matter if it's not executed. Why do way more people just love a savage race of aliens so much that they watch in greater number than before? Are savage aliens that much cooler than savage demons? Is it more that they are aliens or that they are savage?

People don't watch for lore, they watch for execution. Given that DB became popular the more it leaned into the action, I'd say that was the reason it increased in popularity. Lore is easy, execution is the true art. I'd go as far as saying most don't give a shit about lore.

[zarmack]

You don't speak for most of the fandom.

Neither do you. You honestly think people gave a damn about Goku being revealed an alien so much they tuned in in greater numbers and all this regardless of execution.

You are the one making reductive fallacies. I never said him merely being an alien is what made him popular. I said the saiyans are popular because their a race of savage fighters.

Fair enough, and I realized that afterward, but doesn't change the fact that the idea alone won't matter if it's not executed. Why do way more people just love a savage race of aliens so much that they watch in greater number than before? Are savage aliens that much cooler than savage demons? Is it more that they are aliens or that they are savage?

People don't watch for lore, they watch for execution. Given that DB became popular the more it leaned into the action, I'd say that was the reason it increased in popularity. Lore is easy, execution is the true art. I'd go as far as saying most don't give a shit about lore.

So you are saying most people don't care about the story of any story? How the hell are you supposed to be engaged to any work of fiction if they are aren't interested in the story that makes it happen? That makes no logical sense. The Saiyan and Namek arcs wouldn't held in such a high regard in Japan and much of the world's audience if the story/lore didn't matter to them. Hell, a common criticism of the Tournament of Power arc from both fans and general viewers is that its mostly a plotless collection of fights.

Concepts and ideas are not neutral. Some are inherently better than others and that effects the quality of any possible execution of them. Some ideas are simple unsalvageable.

Goku coming from a race of savage aliens breed to fight worked because it explained everything about why Goku is the way he is and all of his accomplishments in Early DB. That's are big part of what got Japan (and other regions that saw Early DB first) hooked on the Saiyan and Namek arcs. Hell, it a part of why the new (and original) Broly movies continue to use the story of those arcs as context for their own.

[ABED]

I'm saying people don't care that much about lore and the world of the story beyond what it takes to clarify the story.

How the hell are you supposed to be engaged to any work of fiction if they are aren't interested in the story that makes it happen?

The engaging characters, dialog, acting. I don't need to know everything about the world and the characters beyond what the story needs to tell me. I don't need to know the ins and out of Freeza's planetary empire. I just need to know they exist, in essence what they do, and who the leader is.

Saiyan and Namek arcs wouldn't held in such a high regard in Japan and much of the world's audience if the story/lore didn't matter to them.

Yes, STORY, not LORE. People don't tune in for exposition.

Concepts and ideas are not neutral. Some are inherently better than others and that effects the quality of any possible execution of them. Some ideas are simple unsalvageable.

While I can agree somewhat, I've seen plenty of bland sounding ideas end up great because it was executed well. This all is very vague. Could you give specific examples?

That's are big part of what got Japan (and other regions that saw Early DB first) hooked on the Saiyan and Namek arcs.

So what got people into the story is something that explained what happened earlier in the story they didn't watch?

[zarmack]

And other thing, way too many people in this thread is making false dichotomies between storytelling and world-building. Its not possible to have good character development/writing without an interesting setting for them to interact in and development from. And a good story (of any genre) isn't possible without a good setting to have it all happen in.

Plot, setting and character are all interconnected. They can't compensate for each other and the moment a writer starts viewing these 3 things as separate from each other is when a work of fiction begins to fall apart. By adding into a series' lore, you are increasing the possibility for more (and better) stories and character development within the series' fictional universe. This is how (and why) expanded universes become thing for a lot of franchises.

[ABED]

We're not treating them as separate. Of course you need an interesting setting, but the setting exists in the story, not the other way around. Lore is just exposition. It's necessary, but slows the story down.

The problem with lore is when it becomes an end in itself.