Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

It doesn't need to. That's what "supplementary material" exists for.

An important plot point for Goku surpassing his goal in Beerus, whom is waiting for his fated battle with an arch rival won't be casually brushed over by some unconfirmed magazine that everybody isn't going to read.

I mean when he completed UI and clearly surpassed Beerus there was no comment made about it. The 3rd UI Omen isn't much different.

You can't surpass an established obstacle without a direct comment of said person or victory in a fight.

[Koitsukai]

If every other GoD in the stands gets up when you achieve certain power level, and then you power up a couple of more times, then is not crazy to believe the GoDs were left in the dust. Actions (like standing up out of respect like some kind of anthem) speak louder than words.

[RecolorSaiyan]

If every other GoD in the stands gets up when you achieve certain power level, and then you power up a couple of more times, then is not crazy to believe the GoDs were left in the dust. Actions (like standing up out of respect like some kind of anthem) speak louder than words.

Jiren flinched when kale went berserk. He didn’t even flinch when kefla went ssj2 or Goku Initially powered up Omen vs Kefla.

[Koitsukai]

If every other GoD in the stands gets up when you achieve certain power level, and then you power up a couple of more times, then is not crazy to believe the GoDs were left in the dust. Actions (like standing up out of respect like some kind of anthem) speak louder than words.

Jiren flinched when kale went berserk. He didn’t even flinch when kefla went ssj2 or Goku Initially powered up Omen vs Kefla.

Jiren is not a GoD and there aren't 10 Jirens doing the very same action at the same time.

[RecolorSaiyan]

If every other GoD in the stands gets up when you achieve certain power level, and then you power up a couple of more times, then is not crazy to believe the GoDs were left in the dust. Actions (like standing up out of respect like some kind of anthem) speak louder than words.

Jiren flinched when kale went berserk. He didn’t even flinch when kefla went ssj2 or Goku Initially powered up Omen vs Kefla.

Jiren is not a GoD and there aren't 10 Jirens doing the very same action at the same time.

No, jiren is only stronger than his own GoD and as super has shown before, reactions don't mean much

Beerus and Champa were both shown to freak out during the u6 tournament due to Hit and/or Goku
Shin and Gowasu couldn't stop bloviating about Merged Zamasu's power and then he got wrecked in a beam struggle vs regular ssb goku.
All the top tiers in the ToP such as Goku, Vegeta, Hit, Jiren, Toppo, Freeza, and 17 took notice of Berserk kale's power and then a stronger kale got outclassed by ssg goku.

Instead of having krillin yell "gokuuuuuuuuuuh" for the 40 millionth time or having Kai ask redundant questions, a piece of dialogue as simple as

Beerus : "He's finally beyond me" or Whis saying "Lord Beerus, he's finally surpassed you!". yet the manga and anime both went out of their way to avoid any EXPLICIT and necessary comparison between Jiren, Goku and Beerus

[PFM18]

An important plot point for Goku surpassing his goal in Beerus, whom is waiting for his fated battle with an arch rival won't be casually brushed over by some unconfirmed magazine that everybody isn't going to read.

I mean when he completed UI and clearly surpassed Beerus there was no comment made about it. The 3rd UI Omen isn't much different.

You can't surpass an established obstacle without a direct comment of said person or victory in a fight.

Oh right you think even Completed UI didn't surpass Beerus.

He beat Jiren. Therefore, he's stronger than Beerus. Period.

[Miracles]

I mean when he completed UI and clearly surpassed Beerus there was no comment made about it. The 3rd UI Omen isn't much different.

You can't surpass an established obstacle without a direct comment of said person or victory in a fight.

Oh right you think even Completed UI didn't surpass Beerus.

He beat Jiren. Therefore, he's stronger than Beerus. Period.

Stop with the headcannon. Jiren was only stated to be stronger than Belmond not Beerus.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You can't surpass an established obstacle without a direct comment of said person or victory in a fight.

Oh right you think even Completed UI didn't surpass Beerus.

He beat Jiren. Therefore, he's stronger than Beerus. Period.

Stop with the headcannon. Jiren was only stated to be stronger than Belmond not Beerus.

And Belmod was stated to be stronger than Beerus, according to Whis, someone more knowledgeable than Beerus in martial arts; Beerus tried to deny the fact by claiming it was only an arm-wrestling match. His reaction almost certainly tells us that he's trying to save face and keep up his facade of being the strongest around despite Whis very clearly telling the truth.

And then Whis states that Jiren may have even surpassed the level of God of Destruction entirely, judging from just how suppressed Jiren was when he was easily stalemating Goku in their Genkidama struggle despite the latter going all-out and pushing himself to the limits of his limits with SSB and KaiokenX20; he also reaffirms the rumour of a mortal who even a God of Destruction cannot defeat during this exchange.

[Miracles]

Oh right you think even Completed UI didn't surpass Beerus.

He beat Jiren. Therefore, he's stronger than Beerus. Period.

Stop with the headcannon. Jiren was only stated to be stronger than Belmond not Beerus.

And Belmod was stated to be stronger than Beerus, according to Whis, someone more knowledgeable than Beerus in martial arts; Beerus tried to deny the fact by claiming it was only an arm-wrestling match. His reaction almost certainly tells us that he's trying to save face and keep up his facade of being the strongest around despite Whis very clearly telling the truth.

And then Whis states that Jiren may have even surpassed the level of God of Destruction entirely, judging from just how suppressed Jiren was when he was easily stalemating Goku in their Genkidama struggle despite the latter going all-out and pushing himself to the limits of his limits with SSB and KaiokenX20; he also reaffirms the rumour of a mortal who even a God of Destruction cannot defeat during this exchange.

Jiren being stronger than Belmond has nothing to do with Beerus. Lets not appeal to emotion fallacy about Beerus lying about AN arm wrestling match.
Especially when it is a factual plot point in BOTH anime and manga and the only name canonically put on that match was Quitela's.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Stop with the headcannon. Jiren was only stated to be stronger than Belmond not Beerus.

And Belmod was stated to be stronger than Beerus, according to Whis, someone more knowledgeable than Beerus in martial arts; Beerus tried to deny the fact by claiming it was only an arm-wrestling match. His reaction almost certainly tells us that he's trying to save face and keep up his facade of being the strongest around despite Whis very clearly telling the truth.

And then Whis states that Jiren may have even surpassed the level of God of Destruction entirely, judging from just how suppressed Jiren was when he was easily stalemating Goku in their Genkidama struggle despite the latter going all-out and pushing himself to the limits of his limits with SSB and KaiokenX20; he also reaffirms the rumour of a mortal who even a God of Destruction cannot defeat during this exchange.

Jiren being stronger than Belmond has nothing to do with Beerus. Lets not appeal to emotion fallacy about Beerus lying about AN arm wrestling match.
Especially when it is a factual plot point in BOTH anime and manga and the only name canonically put on that match was Quitela's.

Yeah, and the anime decided not to do that and kept it vague to keep the mystery of Jiren's power level a secret.

Even if we go with your interpretation, an arm wrestling match is a still test of strength. Therefore, Beerus lost in a strength contest. Therefore, Whis was referring to a mortal stronger than a God of Destruction whom Beerus lost to in a strength contest. Therefore, when Whis confirms that Jiren is the mortal of this rumour, it confirms that Jiren is stronger than Beerus. Even then, I've studied in psychology, sociology, and am currently studying for special education.

Reading social cues is a part of my education. You can clearly tell that Beerus displayed anxiety at the mention of Whis's comment about a mortal that'd theoretically be stronger than him, to which he vehemently denies the fact in a manner that demonstrates a fear of it being true and challenging his authoritative image. EVEN THEN, Whis is a more reliable source than Beerus, so when he claims something, you KNOW that he means it; we also see this when he believes that Jiren may have even surpassed the level of God of Destruction. Ergo, no matter how you try and finagle it, the FACT is that everything points to Jiren being the first character seen in the series to have surpassed Beerus and in turn the other Gods of Destruction.

[Miracles]

And Belmod was stated to be stronger than Beerus, according to Whis, someone more knowledgeable than Beerus in martial arts; Beerus tried to deny the fact by claiming it was only an arm-wrestling match. His reaction almost certainly tells us that he's trying to save face and keep up his facade of being the strongest around despite Whis very clearly telling the truth.

And then Whis states that Jiren may have even surpassed the level of God of Destruction entirely, judging from just how suppressed Jiren was when he was easily stalemating Goku in their Genkidama struggle despite the latter going all-out and pushing himself to the limits of his limits with SSB and KaiokenX20; he also reaffirms the rumour of a mortal who even a God of Destruction cannot defeat during this exchange.

Jiren being stronger than Belmond has nothing to do with Beerus. Lets not appeal to emotion fallacy about Beerus lying about AN arm wrestling match.
Especially when it is a factual plot point in BOTH anime and manga and the only name canonically put on that match was Quitela's.

Yeah, and the anime decided not to do that and kept it vague to keep the mystery of Jiren's power level a secret.

Even if we go with your interpretation, an arm wrestling match is a still test of strength. Therefore, Beerus lost in a strength contest. Therefore, Whis was referring to a mortal stronger than a God of Destruction whom Beerus lost to in a strength contest. Therefore, when Whis confirms that Jiren is the mortal of this rumour, it confirms that Jiren is stronger than Beerus. Even then, I've studied in psychology, sociology, and am currently studying for special education.

Reading social cues is a part of my education. You can clearly tell that Beerus displayed anxiety at the mention of Whis's comment about a mortal that'd theoretically be stronger than him, to which he vehemently denies the fact in a manner that demonstrates a fear of it being true and challenging his authoritative image. EVEN THEN, Whis is a more reliable source than Beerus, so when he claims something, you KNOW that he means it; we also see this when he believes that Jiren may have even surpassed the level of God of Destruction. Ergo, no matter how you try and finagle it, the FACT is that everything points to Jiren being the first character seen in the series to have surpassed Beerus and in turn the other Gods of Destruction.

Beerus and Quitela interacted in the anime more than once in the TOP too. Beerus even stated he wasn't good with that guy. No name drop of Belmond ever concerning Beerus.
Not even from Whis cause he didn't know which universe, mortal and god was until the TOP. Even then it only confirmed the mortal stronger than it's god.
The fact is, Beerus has history with Quitela in both anime and manga not with Belmond.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Spoiler:

Jiren being stronger than Belmond has nothing to do with Beerus. Lets not appeal to emotion fallacy about Beerus lying about AN arm wrestling match.
Especially when it is a factual plot point in BOTH anime and manga and the only name canonically put on that match was Quitela's.

Yeah, and the anime decided not to do that and kept it vague to keep the mystery of Jiren's power level a secret.

Even if we go with your interpretation, an arm wrestling match is a still test of strength. Therefore, Beerus lost in a strength contest. Therefore, Whis was referring to a mortal stronger than a God of Destruction whom Beerus lost to in a strength contest. Therefore, when Whis confirms that Jiren is the mortal of this rumour, it confirms that Jiren is stronger than Beerus. Even then, I've studied in psychology, sociology, and am currently studying for special education.

Reading social cues is a part of my education. You can clearly tell that Beerus displayed anxiety at the mention of Whis's comment about a mortal that'd theoretically be stronger than him, to which he vehemently denies the fact in a manner that demonstrates a fear of it being true and challenging his authoritative image. EVEN THEN, Whis is a more reliable source than Beerus, so when he claims something, you KNOW that he means it; we also see this when he believes that Jiren may have even surpassed the level of God of Destruction. Ergo, no matter how you try and finagle it, the FACT is that everything points to Jiren being the first character seen in the series to have surpassed Beerus and in turn the other Gods of Destruction.

Beerus and Quitela interacted in the anime more than once in the TOP too. Beerus even stated he wasn't good with that guy. No name drop of Belmond ever concerning Beerus.
Not even from Whis cause he didn't know which universe, mortal and god was until the TOP. Even then it only confirmed the mortal stronger than it's god. The fact is, Beerus has history with Quitela in both anime and manga not with Belmond.

Also never became relevant to the matter of Jiren and the rumour in the anime, which is the one we're focusing on. Don't splice info between different continuities if you can help it.

[Miracles]

Spoiler:

Yeah, and the anime decided not to do that and kept it vague to keep the mystery of Jiren's power level a secret.

Even if we go with your interpretation, an arm wrestling match is a still test of strength. Therefore, Beerus lost in a strength contest. Therefore, Whis was referring to a mortal stronger than a God of Destruction whom Beerus lost to in a strength contest. Therefore, when Whis confirms that Jiren is the mortal of this rumour, it confirms that Jiren is stronger than Beerus. Even then, I've studied in psychology, sociology, and am currently studying for special education.

Reading social cues is a part of my education. You can clearly tell that Beerus displayed anxiety at the mention of Whis's comment about a mortal that'd theoretically be stronger than him, to which he vehemently denies the fact in a manner that demonstrates a fear of it being true and challenging his authoritative image. EVEN THEN, Whis is a more reliable source than Beerus, so when he claims something, you KNOW that he means it; we also see this when he believes that Jiren may have even surpassed the level of God of Destruction. Ergo, no matter how you try and finagle it, the FACT is that everything points to Jiren being the first character seen in the series to have surpassed Beerus and in turn the other Gods of Destruction.

Beerus and Quitela interacted in the anime more than once in the TOP too. Beerus even stated he wasn't good with that guy. No name drop of Belmond ever concerning Beerus.
Not even from Whis cause he didn't know which universe, mortal and god was until the TOP. Even then it only confirmed the mortal stronger than it's god. The fact is, Beerus has history with Quitela in both anime and manga not with Belmond.

Also never became relevant to the matter of Jiren and the rumour in the anime, which is the one we're focusing on. Don't splice info between different continuities if you can help it.

The rumor of Jiren and Belmond didn't pertain to Beerus in the anime either.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Spoiler:

Beerus and Quitela interacted in the anime more than once in the TOP too. Beerus even stated he wasn't good with that guy. No name drop of Belmond ever concerning Beerus.
Not even from Whis cause he didn't know which universe, mortal and god was until the TOP. Even then it only confirmed the mortal stronger than it's god. The fact is, Beerus has history with Quitela in both anime and manga not with Belmond.

Also never became relevant to the matter of Jiren and the rumour in the anime, which is the one we're focusing on. Don't splice info between different continuities if you can help it.

The rumor of Jiren and Belmond didn't pertain to Beerus in the anime either.

Oh yes it was. The rumour was mentioned specifically in reference to Beerus when Whis told Goku about the possibility in preparation for the Tournament of Power.

Whis said that there was a rumour of a mortal that even a God of Destruction can't defeat, and that God of Destruction is stronger than Beerus. Beerus then immediately responds with his arm-wrestling comment.

[ssj3kakarot]

I will say there is credence for both beliefs that Beerus still remains stronger than Jiren and Goku and the belief that Goku and Jiren at their strongest, surpassed Beerus, all Gods really.

We all know the dialog with Whis talking about a mortal in a universe who even a God of Destruction can't beat. Then, we find out that the God of Universe beat Beerus at an arm wrestling match. Any speculation that Belmod could beat Beerus in a fight is headcanon. Not to say you can't make that sort of argument, as Dragon ball generally follows those sort of principles, but still headcanon. Further, during the fight with Goku and Jiren, Whis has some dialog about how the rumor was true, and it specifically shows Belmod when they are quoting the lines " not even a God of Destruction can beat." You could imply that he is referring directly about Belmod, but that again would be headcanon.

So we are to make our own guess as to if the specific line refers directly to Belmod or all GoDs. If it's all Gods, then we are to then jump to the conclusion that all Gods of Destruction are evenly matched? That seems a bit far of a jump because no implication was given to us in the anime. Again, the lines that generally give us a clear cut answer, are a little vague. The only thing we know is that Belmod beat Beerus at arm wrestling. We dont' know, repeat, KNOW, that Whis was implying ALL Gods of destruction.

But then you have scenes where Beerus is sweating balls over the amount of energy Jiren is emitting, and even says things along the lines of, " how is one mortal putting out this much energy." I mean, sure, Beerus might just be nervous because the power is huge and he doesn't want Goku & co. to take the L because then he dies too. That is also headcanon. All we know is Beerus is nervous of Jirens energy, even before he starts going hamtastic-9000 on everyone.

Then all of the God's stand up when Goku goes UI. We don't know why. Again, we DONT know why. We can guess that it's because a mortal surpassed their level? That Goku unlocked such a high technique? All of its bollocks, the only thing we know is that they stand up. If they are standing because Goku surpassed them in power, then why haven't they been standing for Jiren? Jiren apparently had already surpassed them, right? See my point.

Dragonball generally, emphasis strongly and generally, does a good job at conveying the message with dialog. During the Cell saga when Piccolo is powering up, Krillin says something like " Wow, he's even stronger than Vegeta (or Goku). Giving the viewers a clear and cut power scale that Piccolo, for however brief that moment was, had the top dog position on the Z team.

I'm in the group that thinks if Beerus really was surpassed, which is a big obstacle, that there would be specific dialog to let us know. But, I can't say he hasn't been surpassed because that's headcanon. We need dialog or feats to verify. Plain and simple. I'm okay if Beerus was surpassed, I'm okay if he isn't. But to make things clear, otherwise we wouldn't be debating this, a feat or dialog is needed.

The point about all this rant is a lot of everyone's opinions are being based off assumptions.

Personally, I think it would be cool if Beerus was surpassed, but we get a little mini-arc of him and Champa training together to becoming the fittest Gods of Destruction together. Maybe he surpasses Goku but Goku doesn't know it and challenges him and gets surprised. Thoughts? Kinda half-baked but the general concept.

Edit: I think it might be worth addressing the manga because it's a pretty drastic change in this area. Beerus didn't lose to Belmod in the manga in arm wrestling. It was Rat-trap that beat Beerus in arm wrestling. I find this more comical and AT style because of Tom and Jerry type similarities, but whatever. Beerus even acknowledges that " I lost to you at arm wrestling! I'm not gonna lose in hand-to-hand combat." I know, it's manga cross-over, but just makes you think it all.

[wolflonnie]

I will say there is credence for both beliefs that Beerus still remains stronger than Jiren and Goku and the belief that Goku and Jiren at their strongest, surpassed Beerus, all Gods really.

We all know the dialog with Whis talking about a mortal in a universe who even a God of Destruction can't beat. Then, we find out that the God of Universe beat Beerus at an arm wrestling match. Any speculation that Belmod could beat Beerus in a fight is headcanon. Not to say you can't make that sort of argument, as Dragon ball generally follows those sort of principles, but still headcanon. Further, during the fight with Goku and Jiren, Whis has some dialog about how the rumor was true, and it specifically shows Belmod when they are quoting the lines " not even a God of Destruction can beat." You could imply that he is referring directly about Belmod, but that again would be headcanon.

So we are to make our own guess as to if the specific line refers directly to Belmod or all GoDs. If it's all Gods, then we are to then jump to the conclusion that all Gods of Destruction are evenly matched? That seems a bit far of a jump because no implication was given to us in the anime. Again, the lines that generally give us a clear cut answer, are a little vague. The only thing we know is that Belmod beat Beerus at arm wrestling. We dont' know, repeat, KNOW, that Whis was implying ALL Gods of destruction.

But then you have scenes where Beerus is sweating balls over the amount of energy Jiren is emitting, and even says things along the lines of, " how is one mortal putting out this much energy." I mean, sure, Beerus might just be nervous because the power is huge and he doesn't want Goku & co. to take the L because then he dies too. That is also headcanon. All we know is Beerus is nervous of Jirens energy, even before he starts going hamtastic-9000 on everyone.

Then all of the God's stand up when Goku goes UI. We don't know why. Again, we DONT know why. We can guess that it's because a mortal surpassed their level? That Goku unlocked such a high technique? All of its bollocks, the only thing we know is that they stand up. If they are standing because Goku surpassed them in power, then why haven't they been standing for Jiren? Jiren apparently had already surpassed them, right? See my point.

Dragonball generally, emphasis strongly and generally, does a good job at conveying the message with dialog. During the Cell saga when Piccolo is powering up, Krillin says something like " Wow, he's even stronger than Vegeta (or Goku). Giving the viewers a clear and cut power scale that Piccolo, for however brief that moment was, had the top dog position on the Z team.

I'm in the group that thinks if Beerus really was surpassed, which is a big obstacle, that there would be specific dialog to let us know. But, I can't say he hasn't been surpassed because that's headcanon. We need dialog or feats to verify. Plain and simple. I'm okay if Beerus was surpassed, I'm okay if he isn't. But to make things clear, otherwise we wouldn't be debating this, a feat or dialog is needed.

The point about all this rant is a lot of everyone's opinions are being based off assumptions.

Personally, I think it would be cool if Beerus was surpassed, but we get a little mini-arc of him and Champa training together to becoming the fittest Gods of Destruction together. Maybe he surpasses Goku but Goku doesn't know it and challenges him and gets surprised. Thoughts? Kinda half-baked but the general concept.

Edit: I think it might be worth addressing the manga because it's a pretty drastic change in this area. Beerus didn't lose to Belmod in the manga in arm wrestling. It was Rat-trap that beat Beerus in arm wrestling. I find this more comical and AT style because of Tom and Jerry type similarities, but whatever. Beerus even acknowledges that " I lost to you at arm wrestling! I'm not gonna lose in hand-to-hand combat." I know, it's manga cross-over, but just makes you think it all.

I'm pretty sure Beerus has been surpassed as well. The ambiguity is Toei's way of playing it safe, in case Toriyama changes idea like he already did with SSG, regular SSJs, SSG in comparison to Beerus, etc.. You can't blame them

[Miracles]

Also never became relevant to the matter of Jiren and the rumour in the anime, which is the one we're focusing on. Don't splice info between different continuities if you can help it.

The rumor of Jiren and Belmond didn't pertain to Beerus in the anime either.

Oh yes it was. The rumour was mentioned specifically in reference to Beerus when Whis told Goku about the possibility in preparation for the Tournament of Power.

Whis said that there was a rumour of a mortal that even a God of Destruction can't defeat, and that God of Destruction is stronger than Beerus. Beerus then immediately responds with his arm-wrestling comment.

The arm wrestling comment by Beerus and Whis's mortal and god statement was general and not specific. So you are factually wrong again.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The rumor of Jiren and Belmond didn't pertain to Beerus in the anime either.

Oh yes it was. The rumour was mentioned specifically in reference to Beerus when Whis told Goku about the possibility in preparation for the Tournament of Power.

Whis said that there was a rumour of a mortal that even a God of Destruction can't defeat, and that God of Destruction is stronger than Beerus. Beerus then immediately responds with his arm-wrestling comment.

The arm wrestling comment by Beerus and Whis's mortal and god statement was general and not specific. So you are factually wrong again.

Nope. Check the dialogue again from episode 93. Whis specifies after mentioning the rumour that that mortal's God of Destruction happens to be stronger than Beerus.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Its there a group that thinks jiren and beerus are relevant to each other? Just me? Ok then...

[PFM18]

I will say there is credence for both beliefs that Beerus still remains stronger than Jiren and Goku and the belief that Goku and Jiren at their strongest, surpassed Beerus, all Gods really.

We all know the dialog with Whis talking about a mortal in a universe who even a God of Destruction can't beat. Then, we find out that the God of Universe beat Beerus at an arm wrestling match. Any speculation that Belmod could beat Beerus in a fight is headcanon. Not to say you can't make that sort of argument, as Dragon ball generally follows those sort of principles, but still headcanon. Further, during the fight with Goku and Jiren, Whis has some dialog about how the rumor was true, and it specifically shows Belmod when they are quoting the lines " not even a God of Destruction can beat." You could imply that he is referring directly about Belmod, but that again would be headcanon.

So we are to make our own guess as to if the specific line refers directly to Belmod or all GoDs. If it's all Gods, then we are to then jump to the conclusion that all Gods of Destruction are evenly matched? That seems a bit far of a jump because no implication was given to us in the anime. Again, the lines that generally give us a clear cut answer, are a little vague. The only thing we know is that Belmod beat Beerus at arm wrestling. We dont' know, repeat, KNOW, that Whis was implying ALL Gods of destruction.

But then you have scenes where Beerus is sweating balls over the amount of energy Jiren is emitting, and even says things along the lines of, " how is one mortal putting out this much energy." I mean, sure, Beerus might just be nervous because the power is huge and he doesn't want Goku & co. to take the L because then he dies too. That is also headcanon. All we know is Beerus is nervous of Jirens energy, even before he starts going hamtastic-9000 on everyone.

Then all of the God's stand up when Goku goes UI. We don't know why. Again, we DONT know why. We can guess that it's because a mortal surpassed their level? That Goku unlocked such a high technique? All of its bollocks, the only thing we know is that they stand up. If they are standing because Goku surpassed them in power, then why haven't they been standing for Jiren? Jiren apparently had already surpassed them, right? See my point.

Dragonball generally, emphasis strongly and generally, does a good job at conveying the message with dialog. During the Cell saga when Piccolo is powering up, Krillin says something like " Wow, he's even stronger than Vegeta (or Goku). Giving the viewers a clear and cut power scale that Piccolo, for however brief that moment was, had the top dog position on the Z team.

I'm in the group that thinks if Beerus really was surpassed, which is a big obstacle, that there would be specific dialog to let us know. But, I can't say he hasn't been surpassed because that's headcanon. We need dialog or feats to verify. Plain and simple. I'm okay if Beerus was surpassed, I'm okay if he isn't. But to make things clear, otherwise we wouldn't be debating this, a feat or dialog is needed.

The point about all this rant is a lot of everyone's opinions are being based off assumptions.

Personally, I think it would be cool if Beerus was surpassed, but we get a little mini-arc of him and Champa training together to becoming the fittest Gods of Destruction together. Maybe he surpasses Goku but Goku doesn't know it and challenges him and gets surprised. Thoughts? Kinda half-baked but the general concept.

Edit: I think it might be worth addressing the manga because it's a pretty drastic change in this area. Beerus didn't lose to Belmod in the manga in arm wrestling. It was Rat-trap that beat Beerus in arm wrestling. I find this more comical and AT style because of Tom and Jerry type similarities, but whatever. Beerus even acknowledges that " I lost to you at arm wrestling! I'm not gonna lose in hand-to-hand combat." I know, it's manga cross-over, but just makes you think it all.

I'm pretty sure Beerus has been surpassed as well. The ambiguity is Toei's way of playing it safe, in case Toriyama changes idea like he already did with SSG, regular SSJs, SSG in comparison to Beerus, etc.. You can't blame them

Oh exactly. 100%. They are giving themselves an out if AT decides to troll us on that one, but based on everything we know, Jiren and UI Goku are above Beerus. Not sure how this can reasonably be denied given what @PerhapsTheOtherOne has already brought up.