Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

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Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:23 pm

Goku in the BoG arc lost the ssg form BUT his regular ssj form was boosted up to same power and it didn't use god ki as goten even remarks he can feel his ki after goku dropped out of the form

So basically

Pre Ritual SSJ Goku = 1

SSG Goku = 1000

SSJ Goku (retained power) = 1000

* These are random numbers, don't focus on them. Point being goku had lost god ki in his body. Now in the ToP, Goku randomly breaks out SSG vs Dyspo and nobody seems to be confused as to how he achieved it without the ritual since you know he lost the ritual god form. The only explanation would be that he learned how to tap into it via training with Whis, now Vegeta at bare minimum has had 6 months more with Whis than Goku did. So what is the problem/confusion with him achieving ssg ?

The way i've seen SOME people react to it, you'd think he achieved it in the gravity room by himself and not from an Angel

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:24 pm

It's not controversial at all. Most people are excited about it from what I've seen.

I mean, you COULD argue that bringing back God at all is unnecessary and just adds further clutter to the number of forms they cycle through making it harder for each one to have an impact but that's neither here nor there.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by Saturnine » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:30 pm

Yea and the OP and SethTheProgrammer think that ssjg makes you 1k stronger on top of it again xD

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by BWri » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:57 pm

The problem is not one based on power, it's based on the fact of what Super Saiyan God really is. As far as we know, from what we can narratively and visually imply, SSG is not a normal Saiyan transformation, it is a ritual transformation. If it is just a normal form that hasnt been explained to us. Though Super Saiyan Blue is unique from the other forms, it is really similar to those forms. All SSB is, is the Super Saiyan but with God Ki as the transformation catalyst. Since we have yet to see Vegeta do the ritual, it doesnt make a ton of sense for him to have the form.

Now I dont really care. Modern day Dragon Ball is legitimately one of the most inconsistent shows I've seen, so I'm not going to split hairs over any of these transformations. The thing is, accessing these forms is so vague now and SSG is already so unimportant that its likely something you can get if youre simply strong enough. Maybe it comes part and parcel with the blue form. This wouldnt be such a problem if they established this immediately but this whole time they had us thinking it was a temporary ritual form. I think the problem with most things in modern DB and quite a lot of Z era stuff is this massive buildup to these ideas only to immediately make them feel so trivial afterwards. It hurts the franchise in my opinion.
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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by Chuquita » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:06 pm

I'm not that big on Vegeta getting ssjg, but if that means I get more ssjg Gokû by extension then I'm cool with it.
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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by PFM18 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:28 pm

it should have surprised nobody. The way SSB is described, it seems that SSG is a prerequisite. As in, you must learn how to use God Ki and become a Super Saiyan God before you learn how to become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:49 pm

I'm all for it. Vegeta deserves it. It's cool to see him finally get it. For a while it seemed it was a form only Goku would acquire.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by zarmack » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:03 pm

BWri wrote:The problem is not one based on power, it's based on the fact of what Super Saiyan God really is. As far as we know, from what we can narratively and visually imply, SSG is not a normal Saiyan transformation, it is a ritual transformation. If it is just a normal form that hasnt been explained to us. Though Super Saiyan Blue is unique from the other forms, it is really similar to those forms. All SSB is, is the Super Saiyan but with God Ki as the transformation catalyst. Since we have yet to see Vegeta do the ritual, it doesnt make a ton of sense for him to have the form.

Now I dont really care. Modern day Dragon Ball is legitimately one of the most inconsistent shows I've seen, so I'm not going to split hairs over any of these transformations. The thing is, accessing these forms is so vague now and SSG is already so unimportant that its likely something you can get if youre simply strong enough. Maybe it comes part and parcel with the blue form. This wouldnt be such a problem if they established this immediately but this whole time they had us thinking it was a temporary ritual form. I think the problem with most things in modern DB and quite a lot of Z era stuff is this massive buildup to these ideas only to immediately make them feel so trivial afterwards. It hurts the franchise in my opinion.
You got it all wrong.

First of all according to RoF (both versions), SSB is what happens when you stack SSJ1 on top of SSG. You need SSG in other to become a SSB. That's why SSB was originally called SSGSS. Its a hybrid transformation like Blue Kaioken. So logically, Vegeta ALWAYS had the SSG form since he started training with Whis, he just never chose to use in the Super anime until the Broly movie. People who are confused by this are generally slow.

Second, it was never stated that the ritual was the only to unlock the God-tier transformations. In fact, in the RoF arc Goku give Vegeta props for reaching Godhood without the ritual.

Third, nowhere in the series (not even in the BoG movie) was it ever stated that God ki has anything to with raw power. All Kais have God ki, yet most are weaker than a Cell jr. Also, Golden Freeza, Hit and even Jiren don't have any God ki, yet all of them are either SSB level or higher.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by ratbomb » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:09 pm

I'm not upset with it at all, didn't really like how Vegeta just jumped straight to SSJB in the Super anime.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by BWri » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:21 pm

zarmack wrote:
BWri wrote:The problem is not one based on power, it's based on the fact of what Super Saiyan God really is. As far as we know, from what we can narratively and visually imply, SSG is not a normal Saiyan transformation, it is a ritual transformation. If it is just a normal form that hasnt been explained to us. Though Super Saiyan Blue is unique from the other forms, it is really similar to those forms. All SSB is, is the Super Saiyan but with God Ki as the transformation catalyst. Since we have yet to see Vegeta do the ritual, it doesnt make a ton of sense for him to have the form.

Now I dont really care. Modern day Dragon Ball is legitimately one of the most inconsistent shows I've seen, so I'm not going to split hairs over any of these transformations. The thing is, accessing these forms is so vague now and SSG is already so unimportant that its likely something you can get if youre simply strong enough. Maybe it comes part and parcel with the blue form. This wouldnt be such a problem if they established this immediately but this whole time they had us thinking it was a temporary ritual form. I think the problem with most things in modern DB and quite a lot of Z era stuff is this massive buildup to these ideas only to immediately make them feel so trivial afterwards. It hurts the franchise in my opinion.
You got it all wrong.

First of all according to RoF (both versions), SSB is what happens when you stack SSJ1 on top of SSG. You need SSG in other to become a SSB. That's why SSB was originally called SSGSS. Its a hybrid transformation like Blue Kaioken. So logically, Vegeta ALWAYS had the SSG form since he started training with Whis, he just never chose to use in the Super anime until the Broly movie. People who are confused by this are generally slow.

Second, it was never stated that the ritual was the only to unlock the God-tier transformations. In fact, in the RoF arc Goku give Vegeta props for reaching Godhood without the ritual.

Third, nowhere in the series (not even in the BoG movie) was it ever stated that God ki has anything to with raw power. All Kais have God ki, yet most are weaker than a Cell jr. Also, Golden Freeza, Hit and even Jiren don't have any God ki, yet all of them are either SSB level or higher.
SSB is literally Super Saiyan with God Ki. Vegeta and Goku first discover it (the blue flash) when clashing fists in Whis' staff. Neither were using SSG. The meaning of SSGSS, aka A Super Saiyan God with the Power of a Super Saiyan is simply a strong Saiyan (Vegeta) who gains access to God ki. Vegeta nor Goku had God ki when training with Whis, they gained it with staff training and thus gained their SSB or SSGSS transformation.
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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by zarmack » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:48 pm

BWri wrote:
zarmack wrote:
BWri wrote:The problem is not one based on power, it's based on the fact of what Super Saiyan God really is. As far as we know, from what we can narratively and visually imply, SSG is not a normal Saiyan transformation, it is a ritual transformation. If it is just a normal form that hasnt been explained to us. Though Super Saiyan Blue is unique from the other forms, it is really similar to those forms. All SSB is, is the Super Saiyan but with God Ki as the transformation catalyst. Since we have yet to see Vegeta do the ritual, it doesnt make a ton of sense for him to have the form.

Now I dont really care. Modern day Dragon Ball is legitimately one of the most inconsistent shows I've seen, so I'm not going to split hairs over any of these transformations. The thing is, accessing these forms is so vague now and SSG is already so unimportant that its likely something you can get if youre simply strong enough. Maybe it comes part and parcel with the blue form. This wouldnt be such a problem if they established this immediately but this whole time they had us thinking it was a temporary ritual form. I think the problem with most things in modern DB and quite a lot of Z era stuff is this massive buildup to these ideas only to immediately make them feel so trivial afterwards. It hurts the franchise in my opinion.
You got it all wrong.

First of all according to RoF (both versions), SSB is what happens when you stack SSJ1 on top of SSG. You need SSG in other to become a SSB. That's why SSB was originally called SSGSS. Its a hybrid transformation like Blue Kaioken. So logically, Vegeta ALWAYS had the SSG form since he started training with Whis, he just never chose to use in the Super anime until the Broly movie. People who are confused by this are generally slow.

Second, it was never stated that the ritual was the only to unlock the God-tier transformations. In fact, in the RoF arc Goku give Vegeta props for reaching Godhood without the ritual.

Third, nowhere in the series (not even in the BoG movie) was it ever stated that God ki has anything to with raw power. All Kais have God ki, yet most are weaker than a Cell jr. Also, Golden Freeza, Hit and even Jiren don't have any God ki, yet all of them are either SSB level or higher.
SSB is literally Super Saiyan with God Ki. Vegeta and Goku first discover it (the blue flash) when clashing fists in Whis' staff. Neither were using SSG. The meaning of SSGSS, aka A Super Saiyan God with the Power of a Super Saiyan is simply a strong Saiyan (Vegeta) who gains access to God ki. Vegeta nor Goku had God ki when training with Whis, they gained it with staff training and thus gained their SSB or SSGSS transformation.
Where did you get that nonsense headcanon from? Nowhere was any of that stated in the series. Goku outright said in RoF that SSB was simply when a SSG turns SSJ1.

Goku got God ki when he did the ritual, Vegeta got God ki when he stated training with Whis for 6 months. Neither were ever said to lose their God ki at any point. And characters use God ki without god transformations constantly in the series.

If SSB was just SSJ1 with God ki, then it wouldn't be any stronger than SSJ1 since God ki has nothing to do with strength.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by BWri » Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:33 am

zarmack wrote: Where did you get that nonsense headcanon from? Nowhere was any of that stated in the series. Goku outright said in RoF that SSB was simply when a SSG turns SSJ1.
And what you're saying isnt headcanon? Enlighten me, where is it ever stated in the original BoG or RoF arc of the anime that Vegeta has access to SSG? I'm talking about the red form. It is simply stated that a SSB is a Super Saiyan with the power of God. We are both to a degree utilizing headcanon due to series vagueness, I'm not on a soapbox pretending my ideas are holier than thou.
Goku got God ki when he did the ritual, Vegeta got God ki when he stated training with Whis for 6 months. Neither were ever said to lose their God ki at any point. And characters use God ki without god transformations constantly in the series.
The whole point of their training sessions with Whis was to get stronger, overcome personal weaknesses, and to learn to keep their ki from leaking out, the latter of which was the key to attaining divine ki which allowed them to access higher levels of power that they had never dreamed of. You seem to be misremembering parts of the series. Goku didnt have god ki when he started his training with Whis and all Vegeta accomplished was gaining enough power to close the gap and become a little stronger than Goku. Their gains were what allowed them to train with Whis in earnest to begin with but they were not yet gods. But yeah, check out that scene again when their fists clash on Whis planet then check out the scene where they are in Whis staff. Just search "goku and vegeta discover god ki" on youtube.

In Whis' staff its 100% confirmed that Vegeta doesnt have god ki until he masters ki control. Which means, no red form for Vegeta at least at this point in the series. With all that evidence you can infer that Goku also doesnt have it since they are equals at this point and Goku is literally learning the exact same lessons as Vegeta.

The way I see it in the anime is this:
-Goku did the ritual and attained SSG
-Goku lost SSG in his battle with Beerus as well as the divine ki from the form but he kept the majority of the strength (strangely the anime kinda makes it seem like he lost much of the strength but maybe it just went dormant)
-Vegetas training with Whis allowed him to close the gap and both he and Goku became much stronger than the various Buu arc characters, enough to survive Beerus' training. So strength-wise, they were close to god like power. Neither had God ki or access to the red form.
-With Whis' training, they learned high level ki control which includes "keeping their ki from leaking". Somehow, this basic ass technique that should be taught in Ki Fighting 101 changes normal ki to divine ki. This is when Goku and Vegeta gain access to SSB which is literally the Super Saiyan transformation with god ki.
**-After looking through some clips it does appear that they could technically have gained the red form while training in Whis' staff. Goku does say in the anime "Its not easy to explain, but this is the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan who has the powers of Super Saiyan God", then he proceeds to use his base form as if it has the power of SSG instead of SSG which would have put this issue to bed for Goku at least.
If SSB was just SSJ1 with God ki, then it wouldn't be any stronger than SSJ1 since God ki has nothing to do with strength.
Thats not quite true. God ki doesn't determine how strong someone is, but there is a reason why Whis emphasizes the use of it and why it creates forms much more powerful than the others. To a degree, it augments the power of the user otherwise what would be the difference between SSB and SSJ or why even use God forms at all? God ki is a poorly explained and poorly implemented concept in this show. What even is SSG if god ki doesnt boost power, its like the show wants us to believe these two things at once.

After watching through some clips, I did find this statement from Goku:
"Its not easy to explain, but this is the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan who has the powers of Super Saiyan God"
The statement is in the favor of your point, I'll admit, but its still vague enough to mean anything. I mean really, what are the "powers" of a Super Saiyan God anyway? Is it the god ki? The raw power? It could literally mean what I mentioned. The shows presentation of this lines up moreso with my point because it omits any mention or display of SSG for 3 whole arcs until Toyotaro showed it off a few times in the manga.

Either way its a mess and it makes sense that people are confused as to why Goku and Vegeta are suddenly using these forms.
And characters use God ki without god transformations constantly in the series.
Because the way its implemented in the show is a hot mess with barely any explanation whatsoever. It does everything and nothing all at once. Characters like Toppo and the Saiyans transform when they use it which could be a racial bonus, but then again as far as we know, Toppo doesnt have any other transformations. But the fact that I have to put so much thought into it shows that its not a fully fleshed out concept.
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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by Bejita » Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:44 am

1. Never found it controversial
2. God Ki is a huge mess after all... At least for Saiyans. Not even talking about this ridiculous Saiyan beyond god thing
3. But most importantly... Vegeta looks awesome with it.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by nato25 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:30 am

I'm just happy Vegeta got one of his missing forms filled in! SSJ3 next? Joking of course but yes I'm very happy they gave it to him.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:47 am

It's mostly because it came out of nowhere after such a long period where it just wasn't used, much like SSG in the Tournament of Power.

If it had been explained either in its absence or during its reappearance, nobody would be complaining as much unless the explanation sucked. However, I suppose it's not so bad. Learning how to tap into SSG at will would logically follow with combining that power with SS to create SSB, and plenty of opponents have necessitated going full-power and thus not leave room for SSG.

Obviously, though, the main answer is that, since Toyotaro started using it again, the anime staff figured it'd be cool to bring it back in the anime as well.

As long as it doesn't mysteriously vanish like it did before, it's fine. I wish the same could be said for Kaioken and Evolution, though.
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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by Doctor. » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:02 am

Goku became a SSG and absorbed the power into his SS form, making it as strong as his SSG. But he can go SSG on top of his now powered-up SS, meaning he should be able to absorb the SSG power again and make his SS form as powerful as his powered-up SSG. But now he should be able to go SSG again, which means...

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:07 pm

I haven't really seen any controversy over Vegeta attaining Super Saiyan God. Hell, I've actually seen a lot people excited about it, and believe the anime should have had Vegeta use Super Saiyan God at some point in the Future Trunks arc or the Tournament Of Power.

Besides, When Vegeta turns into a Super Saiyan God in Episode 27, Goku comments that unlike himself who needed the strength of other Saiyans to obtain the power of Super Saiyan God, Vegeta did it on his own with his own strength. That would imply Vegeta, at some point after Goku joined him to train with Whis, simply brute forced his way to becoming a Super Saiyan God. Proving that you can become Super Saiyan God without needing the ritual.

And considering that Super Saiyan Blue features the mechanics of having the "power of Super Saiyan God", Vegeta would need the form to become Super Saiyan Blue. So he definitely has the transformation hidden in his locker, and has had it since the events of Resurrection F, but just simply never bother using it. Why? I'm not sure.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:24 pm

^At the end of the BoG arc Goku said they'd do the ritual for Vegeta next as promised and Vegeta scoffs that he's not interested in a form that only makes him second strongest. Or something to that effect. I imagine that's why.
nato25 wrote:I'm just happy Vegeta got one of his missing forms filled in! SSJ3 next? Joking of course but yes I'm very happy they gave it to him.
I wish they'd just give it to him and be done with it. As strong as he is there's really no reason he couldn't use 3, and yet 3 has been pushed so far into the periphery I don't think we'll ever see it.

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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by FortuneSSJ » Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:33 pm

For now, it doesn't make much sense for two reasons.

1 - SSG form was always associated to the ritual. Vegeta refused to do the ritual in the anime, so it doesn't make sense for him have it now because it was never explained they could get that form by other means. And only because he has SSB, a stronger form, doesn't mean he should be able to get something that's explained to be unlocked in a specific way.
There wouldn't be any problem if SSG was explained to be just another normal SSJ form.

2 - DBS had 131 episodes and not in a single one Vegeta said he could used SSG.

As for the manga, it was never said Vegeta refused to do the ritual so I assume he did it off-screen after BOG, but he only felt the need to use it in FT Trunks arc.
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Re: Why is Vegeta having SSG so controversial?

Post by PFM18 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:49 pm

Doctor. wrote:Goku became a SSG and absorbed the power into his SS form, making it as strong as his SSG. But he can go SSG on top of his now powered-up SS, meaning he should be able to absorb the SSG power again and make his SS form as powerful as his powered-up SSG. But now he should be able to go SSG again, which means...
Yeah I don't think there's a "rinse and repeat" mechanic to it. Though it would be hilariously overpowered if there was

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