Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

I'm starting to rethink. TOEI is so terrible at telling a story it's hard to tell if Goku and Vegeta made any gains in their previous forms.

One could make the case that their "limit breaking" states only apply to new forms.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Strongest =/= most unbeatable.


Zamasu immortality made him unable to be beaten by anyone but Zeno. Hell Goku thought with a senzu, he could possibly take on universal zamasu, which would suggest his PL wasn’t too high

Not really. "Strength" doesn't merely relates to power, but to how you use it and to other factors not related to Ki. Dabra was considered a stronger enemy than Cell despite being as powerful as him because of his magic. So Infinite Zamasu would be the strongest because they literally can't defeat (Or even touch) him.

It is much more than the sums of the parts according to Goku himself, but we have no notion of how much. After all, Gogeta SSB would be stronger than Goku SSB KK x20 and Vegeta SSBE?

Yes. And in base, i might add.

Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…”

With current power levels and new transformations, I don't think this dialogue can be used now.

We saw that the power up that the SSG offends Goku is monstrous, he did not even want use Vegetto fusion to defeat Beerus (knowing it would not be enough), but the SSG was able to face him.
SSB is much more powerful than SSG, and Goku can basically multiply that power by 20x, while Vegeta does the same with his new transformation.

I believe it is debatable whether Gogeta SSB is superior to Goku KK x20 and Vegeta SSBE despite believing they can make Gogeta much stronger just because of all the hype and fanservice of the movie

I think that it basically comes down to how strong Goku and Vegeta are in Toriyama's vision, where there's no Kaioken or mastered versions of Blue. While in the anime SSB is nowhere near a God of Destruction, it's entirely possible Toriyama values the form much higher and Goku/Vegeta aren't ants to Beerus.

I think in Toriyama's early plans, Beerus was not much stronger than SSB.

In FNF (or RoF), Goku and Vegeta SSB fighting together would be able to beat Beerus, and in the manga originally the SSB would be able to defeat Merged Zamasu.
Of course both concepts were redone, but as I said, Toriyama's view was not of such a big difference between Beerus and Goku and Vegeta

[Kenneth La Torre]

Well Gogeta being above ssb kkx20 goku is an understatement. The dude is about to beat someone beyond jiren in ssb. Fusion is hundreds of times more powerful, not a couple times.

[AvatarReiko]

Fusion Dance is not as strong As Potara but it's still greater than the sum of the parts. See Goten+Trunks=SS3 Gotenks

It is much more than the sums of the parts according to Goku himself, but we have no notion of how much. After all, Gogeta SSB would be stronger than Goku SSB KK x20 and Vegeta SSBE?

Gotenks SSJ3 was stronger than Goku SSJ3, but the difference was not so great.
Anyway, for fanervice purposes, this makes no difference because they can simply make Gogeta much stronger or weaker if it's needed

Actually, the difference was massive. It was big enough that Goku didn't even want to attempt to fight someone on SSJ3 Gotenks' level

Spoiler:

1. Goku and Vegeta made massive gains in base forms during the ToP

2. Metamoran is now stronger than potara

3. Vegito was nerfed badly


Pick one to explain how Gogeta > Broly > Jiren >>> SSB Vegito

Spoiler:

What on earth gave you the idea that Jiren>SSJB Vegito

[PFM18]

Actually, the difference was massive. It was big enough that Goku didn't even want to attempt to fight someone on SSJ3 Gotenks' level

That doesn't mean the difference is massive. Vegeta didn't want to attempt to fight the Ginyu Force and they were not even close to double his power. Goku, who was using double the power of Vegeta at the time, had completely dominated the Ginyu Force.

So really, that isn't even evidence of a 2x advantage.

What on earth gave you the idea that Jiren>SSJB Vegito

Are you serious? That isn't exactly a ridiculous conclusion.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Goku and Piccolo felt confident that pre ROSAT ssj gotenks could beat majin buu who was more or less ssj3 goku level. The rosat gains + ssj3 were not in the plan.

ssj3 gotenks was atleast 8 times stronger than ssj3 goku

[PFM18]

Goku and Piccolo felt confident that pre ROSAT ssj gotenks could beat majin buu who was more or less ssj3 goku level. The rosat gains + ssj3 were not in the plan.

ssj3 gotenks was atleast 8 times stronger than ssj3 goku

I know I'm just saying the logic he used doesn't work. Characters avoid engaging with characters that aren't really that much stronger than them all the time.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

So Broly is stronger than Jiren and I think it's safe to assume that Gogeta only uses SSB to beat Broly.

So an all inclusive powerscale would look something like:

Golden Great Ape Cumber>SSJ4 Vegito>SSJ3 Cumber>Base Cumber=SSB Kaiokenx20 Vegito>SSB Vegito>SSB Gogeta>LSSJ Broly>UI Goku>Limit Breaker Jiren>Full Power Jiren>UI Omen Goku(3rd usage)>SSJ2 Kefla=UI Omen Goku(2nd usage)>Suppressed Jiren=UI Omen Goku(1st usage)>SSBE Vegeta's Final Explosion=Merged Zamasu(Light of Justice)>Toppo's Full Power Destruction Energy>Universe 7 Spirit Bomb=SSJ Kefla>SSBE Vegeta(Resolve Boost)=SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku>Merged Zamasu(Halo)>God of Destruction Toppo=Beerus>SSJ Broly>SSBE Vegeta>SSB Goku=SSB Vegeta>Ikari Broly>SSJG Goku=SSJG Vegeta

[TheSaiyanGod]

Fusion Dance is not as strong As Potara but it's still greater than the sum of the parts. See Goten+Trunks=SS3 Gotenks

It is much more than the sums of the parts according to Goku himself, but we have no notion of how much. After all, Gogeta SSB would be stronger than Goku SSB KK x20 and Vegeta SSBE?

Gotenks SSJ3 was stronger than Goku SSJ3, but the difference was not so great.
Anyway, for fanervice purposes, this makes no difference because they can simply make Gogeta much stronger or weaker if it's needed

Actually, the difference was massive. It was big enough that Goku didn't even want to attempt to fight someone on SSJ3 Gotenks' level

Goku did not want to face him because he knew he would not win, you can not tell the size of the power difference between the two just because of it.

In fact, Goku SSJ3 + Vegeta SSJ2 would not be able to beat Boo, but that was not even 2x the strength of Goku himself.

For example, Gotenks SSJ3 had a very similar level to that of Super Boo (slightly stronger) while Gohan was able to beat Boo without taking any hits. The difference, visually, was gigantic.
But Boo absorbs Gotenks SSJ3 and we saw that he completely dominated Gohan. The sum of the power of two characters with similar levels (and weaker than Ultimate Gohan) resulted in a much stronger warrior than this Gohan (Gohan was no more than 2x stronger than Boo or Gotenks)

Well Gogeta being above ssb kkx20 goku is an understatement. The dude is about to beat someone beyond jiren in ssb. Fusion is hundreds of times more powerful, not a couple times.

Yes, it was said that Broly was the '' most powerful enemy '' in some promotional materials, but if Gogeta SSB really is able to defeat him, then I do not see how that makes him stronger than Jiren.

In fact, we are not even sure if Vegetto SSB is stronger than FP Jiren and MUI Goku, so Gogeta, which is less than Vegetto (unless you have some statement in the movie that changes that), also can not be

Goku and Piccolo felt confident that pre ROSAT ssj gotenks could beat majin buu who was more or less ssj3 goku level. The rosat gains + ssj3 were not in the plan.

ssj3 gotenks was atleast 8 times stronger than ssj3 goku

Well, this proved to be wrong when SSJ Gotenks (stronger than before after training in RoSaT) could not even scratch Boo (except for the ghost technique, which also did not work)

[PFM18]

So Broly is stronger than Jiren and I think it's safe to assume that Gogeta only uses SSB to beat Broly.

So an all inclusive powerscale would look something like:

Golden Great Ape Cumber>SSJ4 Vegito>SSJ3 Cumber>Base Cumber=SSB Kaiokenx20 Vegito>SSB Vegito>SSB Gogeta>LSSJ Broly>UI Goku>Limit Breaker Jiren>Full Power Jiren>UI Omen Goku(3rd usage)>SSJ2 Kefla=UI Omen Goku(2nd usage)>Suppressed Jiren=UI Omen Goku(1st usage)>SSBE Vegeta's Final Explosion=Merged Zamasu(Light of Justice)>Toppo's Full Power Destruction Energy>Universe 7 Spirit Bomb=SSJ Kefla>SSBE Vegeta(Resolve Boost)=SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku>Merged Zamasu(Halo)>God of Destruction Toppo=Beerus>SSJ Broly>SSBE Vegeta>SSB Goku=SSB Vegeta>Ikari Broly>SSJG Goku=SSJG Vegeta

Yeah your first problem is trying to use Heroes to power scale at al

[Marlowe89]

So baring the spoilers, would this imply Broly is below LB Jiren?

Again, this kind of thing really just depends on whether the characters (namely Goku/Vegeta) mention Broly is the strongest opponent they've fought. If they do, there you have it. If they don't, it's more ambiguous, but I'm sure some arguments can be made in Jiren's favor then.

[PFM18]

So baring the spoilers, would this imply Broly is below LB Jiren?

Again, this kind of thing really just depends on whether the characters (namely Goku/Vegeta) mention Broly is the strongest opponent they've fought. If they do, there you have it. If they don't, it's more ambiguous, but I'm sure some arguments can be made in Jiren's favor then.

Didn't the promotional material already say that Broly is the strongest opponent they have ever fought?

[Miracles]

So baring the spoilers, would this imply Broly is below LB Jiren?

Again, this kind of thing really just depends on whether the characters (namely Goku/Vegeta) mention Broly is the strongest opponent they've fought. If they do, there you have it. If they don't, it's more ambiguous, but I'm sure some arguments can be made in Jiren's favor then.

Yes. This is truth.

[Kenneth La Torre]

So baring the spoilers, would this imply Broly is below LB Jiren?

Again, this kind of thing really just depends on whether the characters (namely Goku/Vegeta) mention Broly is the strongest opponent they've fought. If they do, there you have it. If they don't, it's more ambiguous, but I'm sure some arguments can be made in Jiren's favor then.

Didn't the promotional material already say that Broly is the strongest opponent they have ever fought?

Yes. We already know he is beyond jiren. Said promotional material also questioned wether brolys power is beyond a god of destruction.

[Hugo Boss]

Again, this kind of thing really just depends on whether the characters (namely Goku/Vegeta) mention Broly is the strongest opponent they've fought. If they do, there you have it. If they don't, it's more ambiguous, but I'm sure some arguments can be made in Jiren's favor then.

Didn't the promotional material already say that Broly is the strongest opponent they have ever fought?

Yes. We already know he is beyond jiren. Said promotional material also questioned wether brolys power is beyond a god of destruction.

It’s only promotional material though. What matters is what is conveyed in the movie or by the writer himself.

[RecolorSaiyan]

In toriyama's continuity, jiren didn't fight kkx20 or ssbe either. Why are people trying to make anime vs movie comparisons? The narrative is that the next enemy> previous enemy. Beerus is the only exception and nothing that occurred in his arc applies to jiren

Beerus didn't even remotely try in BoG, jiren went beyond his fp
Beerus wasn't beaten, jiren was beaten and overpowered by UI goku until the form gave out
Beerus introduced goku to a world he didn't even know existed. Jiren pushed goku into something he had been training for year+ under whis.

The fact that it takes a post ToP ssb gogeta to beat this guy should be enough proof that he's a monster

[TheSaiyanGod]

In toriyama's continuity, jiren didn't fight kkx20 or ssbe either. Why are people trying to make anime vs movie comparisons? The narrative is that the next enemy> previous enemy. Beerus is the only exception and nothing that occurred in his arc applies to jiren

Beerus didn't even remotely try in BoG, jiren went beyond his fp
Beerus wasn't beaten, jiren was beaten and overpowered by UI goku until the form gave out
Beerus introduced goku to a world he didn't even know existed. Jiren pushed goku into something he had been training for year+ under whis.

The fact that it takes a post ToP ssb gogeta to beat this guy should be enough proof that he's a monster

If only the raw script of Toriyama was considered, then half of the things we saw in the anime and manga would not have happened. In both media, Goku and Vegeta obtained power ups beyond SSB. They are considered to be part of the canonical series and the film basically follows this, so the things we saw in anime and manga can not simply be ignored (but they will).

And what are you suggesting with this Beerus and Jiren thing?

The question is, despite the power ups that Goku and Vegeta received, they apparently will not be used in the movie, which does not mean that for Toriyama Goku and Vegeta SSB are as powerful as their most powerful versions seen on DBS. It is still plausible that, for purposes of power comparison, use transformations shown only in anime and manga

[RecolorSaiyan]

In toriyama's continuity, jiren didn't fight kkx20 or ssbe either. Why are people trying to make anime vs movie comparisons? The narrative is that the next enemy> previous enemy. Beerus is the only exception and nothing that occurred in his arc applies to jiren

Beerus didn't even remotely try in BoG, jiren went beyond his fp
Beerus wasn't beaten, jiren was beaten and overpowered by UI goku until the form gave out
Beerus introduced goku to a world he didn't even know existed. Jiren pushed goku into something he had been training for year+ under whis.

The fact that it takes a post ToP ssb gogeta to beat this guy should be enough proof that he's a monster

If only the raw script of Toriyama was considered, then half of the things we saw in the anime and manga would not have happened. In both media, Goku and Vegeta obtained power ups beyond SSB. They are considered to be part of the canonical series and the film basically follows this, so the things we saw in anime and manga can not simply be ignored (but they will).

And what are you suggesting with this Beerus and Jiren thing?

The question is, despite the power ups that Goku and Vegeta received, they apparently will not be used in the movie, which does not mean that for Toriyama Goku and Vegeta SSB are as powerful as their most powerful versions seen on DBS. It is still plausible that, for purposes of power comparison, use transformations shown only in anime and manga

Because you guys are hung up on ANIME Only forms. Ishitani flat out said SParkles was anime exclusive and now that a movie written by toriyama doesn't have it you guys are shocked. Multiple sources have said he's the strongest enemy they've ever face, this is in line with literally every antagonist outside of beerus but you guys still make dumb arguments like gogeta being only ssbkkx20 level.

Post ToP movie and the opponent is what? Kefla tier? Toppo tier? Come on this isn't rocket science. They have to fuse and go ssb to fight this guy, that should be proof enough of how ridiculous he is

[TheSaiyanGod]

In toriyama's continuity, jiren didn't fight kkx20 or ssbe either. Why are people trying to make anime vs movie comparisons? The narrative is that the next enemy> previous enemy. Beerus is the only exception and nothing that occurred in his arc applies to jiren

Beerus didn't even remotely try in BoG, jiren went beyond his fp
Beerus wasn't beaten, jiren was beaten and overpowered by UI goku until the form gave out
Beerus introduced goku to a world he didn't even know existed. Jiren pushed goku into something he had been training for year+ under whis.

The fact that it takes a post ToP ssb gogeta to beat this guy should be enough proof that he's a monster

If only the raw script of Toriyama was considered, then half of the things we saw in the anime and manga would not have happened. In both media, Goku and Vegeta obtained power ups beyond SSB. They are considered to be part of the canonical series and the film basically follows this, so the things we saw in anime and manga can not simply be ignored (but they will).

And what are you suggesting with this Beerus and Jiren thing?

The question is, despite the power ups that Goku and Vegeta received, they apparently will not be used in the movie, which does not mean that for Toriyama Goku and Vegeta SSB are as powerful as their most powerful versions seen on DBS. It is still plausible that, for purposes of power comparison, use transformations shown only in anime and manga

Because you guys are hung up on ANIME Only forms. Ishitani flat out said SParkles was anime exclusive and now that a movie written by toriyama doesn't have it you guys are shocked. Multiple sources have said he's the strongest enemy they've ever face, this is in line with literally every antagonist outside of beerus but you guys still make dumb arguments like gogeta being only ssbkkx20 level.

Post ToP movie and the opponent is what? Kefla tier? Toppo tier? Come on this isn't rocket science. They have to fuse and go ssb to fight this guy, that should be proof enough of how ridiculous he is

We all know that SSB KK, SSBE and any other power up beyond SSB are exclusive to anime / manga DBS, this is not the question. If Toriyama titled DBS as a continuation of the original manga and as part of the canonical series, then its events are absolutely valid (there is no way to distinguish what was or was not the idea of ​​Toriyama in each episode / chapter), and since the film also is a continuation of the anime ToP (while the manga will make its own version), the minimum that should happen is some kind of continuity consistent with what we saw in the anime, which apparently is also supervited by Toriyama. Why is this wrong?

Particularly, I would just like to see the SSBE because I like Vegeta, but if it does not appear in the movie it will not make much difference because we know that he will not defeat Broly with this transformation (maybe it would only create more confusion on an energy scale than it is completely confused), what I'm complaining about is continuity. If Vegeta SSG was not to appear in this movie, then you would be saying the SAME thing (''this is not in the Toriyama's continuity'') ,even if Toriyama himself said he supervised that idea.

And the thing about Gogeta being level KK x20 was just a questioning , after all, we do not have a notion of the power up of the dance fusion in DBS, but as I said in other posts, it's much more likely that he will be much stronger than we think.

[GodVegetto91]

So Current SSJ Blue Gogeta >>>>>>>>> MUI Goku (ToP)

Current SSJ Blue Gogeta >>> MAX Broly >>>>>> Jiren/MUI Goku. Based on the spoilers.