Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by FortuneSSJ » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:46 pm

Old Broly vs New Broly
Old Bardock vs New Bardock

It's obvious this would happen, because they are dealing with popular characters and they can't please everyone. When you reboot a character and give him a different personality, you may as well give him another name because he's no longer the same character that the fans have known for years.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Miracles » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:53 pm

CTAkuma wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Miracles wrote: Yes, movie 8 Broly was a beast. Love the way he just talked mess and smiled at the chaos. He truly exemplified the destructive persona of the legendary Super Saiyan.
I loved that as well. Especially how he legitimately enjoyed destroying that planet and killing Paragus for trying to trick him. This "Soft innocent do-no-wrong" Broly is so lame to me.
Exactly, people calling it "well written" just because he doesn't have the old backstory, yet i find the new iteration less appealing and straight up boring, making him a good guy was a terrible idea
I think people have forgotten about the old movie 8 Broly due to being stereotyped with the "KAKARATTOOO" memes and jokes. Broly's dialogue was a little more than that and usually short and sweet.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by alakazam^ » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:54 pm

TheMikado wrote:Unfortunately you’re wrong on Brolys motivations thus any comparison you would attempt to make would also be severely flawed.
What's wrong about the motivation he said?

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by CTAkuma » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:23 pm

RedHeat wrote:
CTAkuma wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:
I loved that as well. Especially how he legitimately enjoyed destroying that planet and killing Paragus for trying to trick him. This "Soft innocent do-no-wrong" Broly is so lame to me.
Exactly, people calling it "well written" just because he doesn't have the old backstory, yet i find the new iteration less appealing and straight up boring, making him a good guy was a terrible idea
Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't well written. Broly now has a motivation and explanation for doing what he does instead of just "lol i'm the devil XD".
That was while edgy something unique to him, new Broly isn't unique he is just "pureblood Gohan"

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by TheMikado » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:24 pm

alakazam^ wrote:
TheMikado wrote:Unfortunately you’re wrong on Brolys motivations thus any comparison you would attempt to make would also be severely flawed.
What's wrong about the motivation he said?
It’s been covered multiple times here:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=37309

The Goku/Broly interaction is more symbolic destiny than Broly hating Goku because of what occurred as a baby. Nothing implies that as the reason unless you’re reading online forums and ignoring the context about entwined destinies , rather that they were destined from birth to be at odds, not because of it.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Lord Frieza » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:36 pm

I must ask, what exactly is this great literary depth that classic Broly is supposed to have?

It's an outright lie to say he has not character in the first film but what he dose have never struck me as anything very deep or though provoking in terms of personality. He's a violent, bullying psychopath who loves destruction when free, thats what I call a dime a dozen. It's the kind of personality characters like Marvel's Juggernaut get lumbered with when he's playing villain of the week. I would say there is the possibility for more depth there but anything I come up with if from my speculation, not in the actual film itself as we never get a good depiction of what Broly is like normally when he's calm or see how this power and trauma slowly drive him made. We just skip all that while looking at few flashbacks in a way that do more for Paragus' s character then Broly's. Also whatever symbolism one want's to try and apply to Broly was done in afar superior way with Goku's confrontation with Vegeta.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by TheMikado » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:02 pm

Lord Frieza wrote:I must ask, what exactly is this great literary depth that classic Broly is supposed to have?

It's an outright lie to say he has not character in the first film but what he dose have never struck me as anything very deep or though provoking in terms of personality. He's a violent, bullying psychopath who loves destruction when free, thats what I call a dime a dozen. It's the kind of personality characters like Marvel's Juggernaut get lumbered with when he's playing villain of the week. I would say there is the possibility for more depth there but anything I come up with if from my speculation, not in the actual film itself as we never get a good depiction of what Broly is like normally when he's calm or see how this power and trauma slowly drive him made. We just skip all that while looking at few flashbacks in a way that do more for Paragus' s character then Broly's. Also whatever symbolism one want's to try and apply to Broly was done in afar superior way with Goku's confrontation with Vegeta.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37299#p1235367
The short answer is Broly was a representation of the epitome of what a Saiyan is. In essence the Saiyan Bloodline personified much like the Hulk is a personification of anger originally rather than an actual fully formed “character”. Goku and Vegeta, two extremes on the Saiyan scale are both forced to confront the realities of what it means to be a Saiyan and both handle it in different ways. The symbolism of Goku being the one to overcome it rather than Vegeta should be self explanatory.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by YamiGoku » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:11 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:I must ask, what exactly is this great literary depth that classic Broly is supposed to have?

It's an outright lie to say he has not character in the first film but what he dose have never struck me as anything very deep or though provoking in terms of personality. He's a violent, bullying psychopath who loves destruction when free, thats what I call a dime a dozen. It's the kind of personality characters like Marvel's Juggernaut get lumbered with when he's playing villain of the week. I would say there is the possibility for more depth there but anything I come up with if from my speculation, not in the actual film itself as we never get a good depiction of what Broly is like normally when he's calm or see how this power and trauma slowly drive him made. We just skip all that while looking at few flashbacks in a way that do more for Paragus' s character then Broly's. Also whatever symbolism one want's to try and apply to Broly was done in afar superior way with Goku's confrontation with Vegeta.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37299#p1235367
The short answer is Broly was a representation of the epitome of what a Saiyan is. In essence the Saiyan Bloodline personified much like the Hulk is a personification of anger originally rather than an actual fully formed “character”. Goku and Vegeta, two extremes on the Saiyan scale are both forced to confront the realities of what it means to be a Saiyan and both handle it in different ways. The symbolism of Goku being the one to overcome it rather than Vegeta should be self explanatory.
That sounds so good... untill you remeber all of his character revolve around a baby crying

you make it sound like his greater than life when he was just a simple Villian with a god awful motivation for a character, even for DB standars.

you can like him more than the new version, and maybe there is a devate of wich personality is better,the new Broly or Movie 8 Broly who has some moments, but all this of "he is like the Hulk", " Broly is a representation of the epitome of what a Saiyan are", etc, you are using what you see on his character and then you are presenting us your headcanon as evidence, when a lot of us/the DB comunity, wont see the same interpretation.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Lord Frieza » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:16 pm

TheMikado wrote:In this way the LSSJ is not a true character, much like the Hulk is a deeper critique of what dwells inside men.
But the Hulk is a character in his own right. While the is Hulk used as a metaphor for what dwells within us, that is not all he is. For example look at the Planet Hulk and World War Hulk stories, stories that ignore what the Hulk means for Banner and us and examine who He is. Is he a hero or is he a monster. As well at the much deeper idea that the Hulk is not just part of Banner, but that Banner is just as equally part of the Hulk. There are also plenty of older stories were the Hulk is own man, not bound by Bruce's issues.

Even characters who are living allegories like Godzilla and Kong are equally characters. The sole example of a pure allegorical character that was really good that I can think of is Moby Dick, but he is used to examine the psychology of a another character and dose not appear in person until the end of the book. And in all these cases the allegory is multi faceted, not a single concept.

TheMikado wrote: the Saiyan race personified by it power and cruel evil nature.
But the saiyan race were never like that. Brutal and cruel yes but still with culture and reason. Saiyan Saga Vegeta is a far better personification of their ideals. He was the most powerful member of their race, born royalty who stood at the pinacol of their society. Cruel, merciless, intelligent, arrogantly proud and a great warrior. More a true saiyan a destructive psychopath no matter how strong he is.

TheMikado wrote:First and foremost the SSJ transformation was a form Vegeta prided himself on believing he was destined to achieve. While he eventually achieved it, it was after he believed Goku had obtained it. Once the realization that he could also obtain it, he believed he would be the strongest saiyan alive. During this particular time period Vegeta still heavily embraced Saiyan nature and tendencies, he valued strength and brutality over the love and companionship which Goku embraced as a saiyan. In fact when he was told by Paragus that there would be a New Planet Vegeta, Vegeta jumped at the opportunity to once again embrace and establish his saiyan heritage.

However, when he came face to face with the true raw nature of Saiyans he cowered in fear. The raw unbridled Saiyan power and rage, the very nature of saiyans personified was even enough to terrify the Prince who celebrated the power and cruelty of his own race. It was the first time, in my opinion, that Vegeta saw saiyans and his race for what they truly were.

As a Vegeta fan this is my favorite clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHpkDnOZtCY


Further it took Goku, the only full-blooded saiyan to completely over come his natural saiyan tendencies to fight the raw personification of his own blood. The fight was far more symbolic in that Goku was fighting a part of himself, he was literally fighting the full personification of what was inside of him and not only did he reject it, but he was able to overcome it the same way he first overcame his saiyan heritage as a child, with the support and companionship of those around him and for a purpose greater than himself.
Sorry but this all reads like a watered down viersion of the saiyan arcs symbolisam.

Vegeta is the Prince of all saiyans and the strongest of their race. He's the living embodyment of their entire race's culture and ideals, their bigotry and entitlement. He looks down on everyone, even his own kind. He dose not randomly kill everyone for fun, but coldly treats them like tools for his own gain. If they are of no use, they are disposed of or worse made sport of. What bring him to earth is nothing special. He needed one more man and later wanted the tools to make himself stronger. Theres no misplaced desire for revenge, no desire for earth, which is just one of many in the universe he could take for himself with little effort or a cliché plot device like destiny. Goku is only a small pawn to begin with, then a dead disgrace, then something to amuse himself and finally befor the fight a pest to be eliminated. Everyone else are just ant's underfoot. This elevates him beyond just the stories narrative as he's not just the embodiment of the saiyan race but the evil of humanity. Our pride, our bigotry, our cruilty. For the truly great villains reflect ourselves.

Goku and Vegeta's battle is vastly superior critic becuase it goes beyond Saiyans and criticizes the elites ideals found in human culture and the evil within human nature. Also I find it hard for Vegeta to be questioning the nature of who he is during his fight with Broly, when his fights with Goku, Frieza and Cell had already done so.


Compared to that, frankly Broly seems such a shallow concept.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by zarmack » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:01 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:I must ask, what exactly is this great literary depth that classic Broly is supposed to have?

It's an outright lie to say he has not character in the first film but what he dose have never struck me as anything very deep or though provoking in terms of personality. He's a violent, bullying psychopath who loves destruction when free, thats what I call a dime a dozen. It's the kind of personality characters like Marvel's Juggernaut get lumbered with when he's playing villain of the week. I would say there is the possibility for more depth there but anything I come up with if from my speculation, not in the actual film itself as we never get a good depiction of what Broly is like normally when he's calm or see how this power and trauma slowly drive him made. We just skip all that while looking at few flashbacks in a way that do more for Paragus' s character then Broly's. Also whatever symbolism one want's to try and apply to Broly was done in afar superior way with Goku's confrontation with Vegeta.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37299#p1235367
The short answer is Broly was a representation of the epitome of what a Saiyan is. In essence the Saiyan Bloodline personified much like the Hulk is a personification of anger originally rather than an actual fully formed “character”. Goku and Vegeta, two extremes on the Saiyan scale are both forced to confront the realities of what it means to be a Saiyan and both handle it in different ways. The symbolism of Goku being the one to overcome it rather than Vegeta should be self explanatory.
That sounds like a whole bunch of misleading armchair psychology and self-projected meaning to make the film (and Broly himself) more complex and meaningful than it actually is.

Goku didn't express any anxieties nor a complex about being a Saiyan in the film (any issues he had about his heritage died in the fight with Freeza on Namek), and Vegeta was scared because he thought all this time he was ultimate Saiyan of legend, only to meet Broly and realize he was wrong (and even then he got over it later in the film and challenges Broly alone). He didn't express any anxieties about being a Saiyan in that film either.

I hate when people try to project more meaning and substance into things than there actually is objectively smh.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by alakazam^ » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:14 pm

TheMikado wrote:The Goku/Broly interaction is more symbolic destiny than Broly hating Goku because of what occurred as a baby. Nothing implies that as the reason unless you’re reading online forums and ignoring the context about entwined destinies , rather that they were destined from birth to be at odds, not because of it.
As already posted, that is a good read but it's just embellished headcanon to prove a point, which can be done with anything.

There's no reason they were "destined" for anything except for the fact that Goku's crying upset Broli and he never let it go, even subconsciouly, as proven by the fact Goku's mere presence triggered Broli on New Vegeta. Just by this we can see that "he represents real Saiyajin instinct" or whatever doesn't hold because Vegeeta didn't cause the same reaction from Broli and there's no reason he wouldn't have.

Also, the parallel between them as babies and the final punch is pretty good but, again, the movie makes a point to have Goku crying in both flashbacks because - get this - it's WHAT UPSET BROLI BACK THEN, it's what "defeated" him, if you will. Albeit a bit subtle parallel, it's no philosofical thesis about the Saiyajin nature at all. This, in turn, also crumbles the headcanon that Broli was traumatized by his assassination atempt (as if that ever made sense). It's all about Goku.

Lastly, in that flashback we get a glorified "ahah, that's cute, the weaker one managed to beat the stronger one", which sums up the movie's conflict.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Noitsnothim » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:59 am

something to note that (I feel) is being swept under the rug is the fact that Toriyama gives Vegeta fans their time to shine first in the film rather than Goku
(excluding the sparring match in the film) Toriyama makes Vegeta go Super Saiyan first (instead of the usual Goku goes first cause he's the main protagonist) which leaves Paragus shocked at the sight of it as he remembers that Super Saiyan was deemed only as a "Legend" then further hypes them up by having him go Super Saiyan God (which funny enough is both mentioned by Freeza in DBM and the minus portion of the film) I don't know what the outcome of his Battle with Broly is but the idea that Paragus thinks Vegeta is the first Super Saiyan and Not Goku is kinda cool (Until Goku Transforms to SSJ and God)

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Tian » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:30 am

I've got the feeling that Paragus will die in this movie too.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Shaddy » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:28 am

oh man, don't read a few pages back then.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:53 am

But the sounds of the spoilers, I wouldn't sleep on this Broly being equally, or even more badass than his prior incarnation, because that's really what I've gotten from people, namely, that he won't be some kind of awesome badass whose not going to tear his opponents to shreds(when really, thats probably what his going to be, just with an actual character outside of being the literal apocalypse).

I think something I'm going to really look forward to, is seeing Broly rip Freeza a new one.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Grimlock » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:35 am

According to a new summary made by Terez, the film actually begins 41 years ago, in AGE 739, and then there is a timeskip of five years, to AGE 744...

And then there is this sentence: "Goku arrives on Earth, beginning an on-screen counter which starts in Age 737 and scrolls through the years in front of a progression of stills from the lives of Goku, Vegeta, and Broly, with brief action shots of all three in the foreground (though Broly is only seen as a child)", which doesn't make much sense, does "AGE 737" really appear on-screen?

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by BlueBasilisk » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:48 am

Grimlock wrote:According to a new summary made by Terez, the film actually begins 41 years ago, in AGE 739, and then there is a timeskip of five years, to AGE 744...

And then there is this sentence: "Goku arrives on Earth, beginning an on-screen counter which starts in Age 737 and scrolls through the years in front of a progression of stills from the lives of Goku, Vegeta, and Broly, with brief action shots of all three in the foreground (though Broly is only seen as a child)", which doesn't make much sense, does "AGE 737" really appear on-screen?
Sounds like a case of Writers Cannot Do Math. According to that same summary, the ticker during the montage of Goku's life shows that he arrives on Earth in AGE 737.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Grimlock » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:51 am

This is insane then, this contradicts everything, maybe even more than Toyotaro's "one day passes in the present, one day passes in the future as well". :|

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:55 am

Has AGE XXX ever appeared on-screen on either of DB/Z/GT/Super or manga? If not then there's not anything to contradict.
Lore is NOT story, and it never was, and you should stop spreading this nonsense.
Content is NOT substance.
Bunch of characters doing stuff do NOT make an esemble cast.
Secondary characters are secondary, they do NOT deserve or are entitled to having more screen time.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by BlueBasilisk » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:04 am

Grimlock wrote:This is insane then, this contradicts everything, maybe even more than Toyotaro's "one day passes in the present, one day passes in the future as well". :|
I think they got their numbers mixed up somewhere. If it's still AGE 780 in the present, subtracting 41 would put you in AGE 739, which is when Jaco and Minus supposedly take place. So the start of the movie should actually be 734, 46 years years in the past.
Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:Has AGE XXX ever appeared on-screen on either of DB/Z/GT/Super or manga? If not then there's not anything to contradict.
According to the note we saw an AGE date on the controls of Trunks' time machine once but that's it. The last date that's mentioned on the ticker in that summary is AGE 774, which is ~37 years after Goku's arrival on Earth.
Last edited by BlueBasilisk on Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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