Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

I do not think Goku referred to his full power when he said that he was as strong as he was. After all, he unlocked the MUI during the tournament and Vegeta a '' new form '' that according to Jiren was above all he faced before (except for UI Goku himself) and we know that 17 is nowhere near that.

17 in ToP showed no indication of being close to the power of Goku CSSB, at most something around SSG, although his power was not clear in the manga

Yeah, Goku wasn't referring to their full power. He did say "just about as strong." Which means 17 is god level.
Even TOEI justified 17 being Blue level, mentioning to the public that Toriyama was the one who gave 17 such "potential."

[Son-Kakaroto]

Like I said, it seems to be referring to Pure buu with how it’s appears to be referring to the one that got reincarnated as Uub.

I don't think so. The evil Buus should all share the same soul, he's just referring to the evil Buu in general. Pure Buu was just the last version we saw but there's no reason he shouldn't be talking about Buu at his strongest.

Anywhooo... I would have Brolys SSJ form higher, it’s actually confirmed to be a SSJ form, and judging by his appearance it’s the SSJ form of his Ikari form. Kind of like a human golden Oozaru. His SSJFP form is very hard to place as it’s just own beast, also Broly just continues to get stronger, so god knows how powerful he truly is. I haven’t read everything about the movie like some, but I’ve read about the main bits, and this is the impression I got off of it.

When is it confirmed that it's a regular full-power SS form? His "LSS" form being called "SS Full Power" is pretty much a direct confirmation that his previous version isn't. Also he stops getting stronger at some point early in the movie which is why SSG Vegeta was going to kill him before he ascended to Ikari.

Another thing. I notice that both Goku and Vegeta have a flamey aura in this film, unlike in their previous anime appearances. SSBKK and SSBE are nowhere to be seen. Does anyone else think this a reference to Vegeta's evolved SSB in the manga?

Maybe, but we need to see the movie. All we saw was a snapshot of goku which aura in that scene was similar to vegeta in this manga.

[Sora Saiyan]

The manga has got to have multiple issues when there can be such a difference in opinion like this.

Not really. Most people reading Dende's line aren't going to form that conclusion, because that's not what "formidable" means. Its main definition just describes something that would inspire fear, which can easily be the case for Boo (particularly Kid/Pure Boo).

I'd rather avoid turning this thread into another "which medium has more inconsistencies" debate if we can help it; we've all been down that road too many times before, and even if I have my own stance on it, I don't think it's conducive to the topic at this point.

Yeah, I get you. This discussion has just left a bad taste in my mouth, the fact that this discussion can even be had is what’s done it. It would probably all be avoided if the BoG arc was fully fleshed out.

I don't think so. The evil Buus should all share the same soul, he's just referring to the evil Buu in general. Pure Buu was just the last version we saw but there's no reason he shouldn't be talking about Buu at his strongest.

Because they were talking about Uub being the reincarnation of Majin Buu, ofcourse he’s not the reincarnation of any Buu but pure Buu. As I said in my previous reply to PFM18, though in a bit more depth, remove the bit from Dendes statement that is unneeded, and is just there to serve the purpose of telling the audience how terrifying Buu was, and we end up with this dialogue.
Dende: Because he’s the reincarnation of Majin Buu
Goku: What?!
Dende: Its true. The evil version of Majin Buu had his soul cleansed and reborn as a human.

It’s clearly referring to a specific “version” of Buu that was reincarnated and reborn as Uub. I don’t understand how any other conclusion can be drawn. The only one who fits the bill is Pure Buu, as that’s the one that went through this process. It’s far too specific in the way it gets it’s point across to be any other Buu.

Anyway, formidable doesn’t exclusively mean strongest, as Marlowe said, and I’ve said in my previous replys. I even explained how if somebody had a look at the definition and synonyms they would easily understand how it fits Pure Buu.

When is it confirmed that it's a regular full-power SS form? His "LSS" form being called "SS Full Power" is pretty much a direct confirmation that his previous version isn't. Also he stops getting stronger at some point early in the movie which is why SSG Vegeta was going to kill him before he ascended to Ikari.

Another thing. I notice that both Goku and Vegeta have a flamey aura in this film, unlike in their previous anime appearances. SSBKK and SSBE are nowhere to be seen. Does anyone else think this a reference to Vegeta's evolved SSB in the manga?

He continues to get stronger in the final battle I believe. Also, we don’t have any of the other forms being referred to as a SSJFP to let us know that that they’re SSJ. I mean, the visual cues in Brolys form are enough to tell us that it’s not just a regular SSJ, and the visual cues of his normal looking SSJ form seem to show us that it’s a regular SSJ that looks like its driven by pure rage with the missing iris’.
I thought the thing with Freeza was there to confirm it was a regular SSJ. Honestly I never thought it appeared restricted in the slightest, I don’t understand how it could possibly be anything other than a SSJ form. The iris could be missing because of it being a SSJ form of his Ikari form, but honestly, that’s the only conclusion I’d draw from it in regards to being any different than the other SSJ forms.

In regards to Vegetas form.. I’d say that it probably isn’t the intention of the movie, but the manga could capatilise on it and have both Goku and Vegeta either have that new aura, or just have Vegetas form as a temporary one.

Honestly there’s a very real chance that Toyo noticed that auras looked different in the new movie and decided to give Vegeta a power increase like in the anime, but as to not contradict the movie he only changed the aura to match more with the new style. Honestly it would be genius on his part, as its the perfect chance to give Goku and Vegeta a power increase without contradicting the movie. Also it brings auras back, which is clearly present in the true canon, which is this Broly movie. I would truly appreciate this.

[PFM18]

Not really. Most people reading Dende's line aren't going to form that conclusion, because that's not what "formidable" means. Its main definition just describes something that would inspire fear, which can easily be the case for Boo (particularly Kid/Pure Boo).

"inspiring fear or respect through being impressively large, powerful, intense, or capable."

The fear induced is a function of how powerful the enemy is. Buu is a joke in power compared to Beerus, Freeza, Hit, Black, and Merged Zamasu so saying that Buu is the most formidable opponent that Goku has ever faced is a blatant contradiction and nothing more.

This certainly isn't somehow in a convoluted way evidence that SSG is nerfed.

[ekrolo2]

For the manga, where does Toppo say Jiren is stronger than Belmond?

[RandomGuy96]

For the manga, where does Toppo say Jiren is stronger than Belmond?

Chapter 29, right after Toppo beats Goku in the exhibition:

I'd wonder what the original wording was, because the phrasing here ("based on combat skill alone, he's stronger than Belmond..." "stronger than the God of Destruction!?") doesn't make much sense if it's just a matter of skill. I think "skill" was meant to be something like "prowess" or "ability". Like Jiren can punch out Belmond, but he can't Hakai people. I've seen fan translations that translate "combat skill" here as "battle power" and I'm curious as to their reasoning there.

Anyone have the original page?

[PFM18]

Yeah I find that line about "You may have surpassed Beerus" in the movie to be very strange if Broly reallly is stronger than Jiren because as illustrated beautifully earlier in this thread, Jiren was portrayed as superior to Beerus so if Broly is stronger than Jiren like the promotional material indicated, then by extension it wouldn't even be a question if he is stronger than Beerus.

[ekrolo2]

Yeah I find that line about "You may have surpassed Beerus" in the movie to be very strange if Broly reallly is stronger than Jiren because as illustrated beautifully earlier in this thread, Jiren was portrayed as superior to Beerus so if Broly is stronger than Jiren like the promotional material indicated, then by extension it wouldn't even be a question if he is stronger than Beerus.

I smell a retcon incoming.

[PFM18]

Yeah I find that line about "You may have surpassed Beerus" in the movie to be very strange if Broly reallly is stronger than Jiren because as illustrated beautifully earlier in this thread, Jiren was portrayed as superior to Beerus so if Broly is stronger than Jiren like the promotional material indicated, then by extension it wouldn't even be a question if he is stronger than Beerus.

I smell a retcon incoming.

That's what it looks like right now. It wouldn't be the first time they retconned his power.

[Marlowe89]

"inspiring fear or respect through being impressively large, powerful, intense, or capable."

That corroborates my point though. Those last four adjectives are optional "or" conditions, so the primary definition isn't contingent on pure strength. Most standard dictionaries leave it at "causing fear, dread, or apprehension" with no further qualifiers, because while "formidable" can relate to strength, it more directly describes something that incites fear.

Ergo, Boo can be the most formidable opponent they've fought without necessarily having the most raw power. The original manga describes him as a terrifying threat due to his unpredictable nature, which is consistent with Dende's wording.

Moreover, "formidable" can be translated from a variety of Japanese terms. We'd need access to the untranslated dialogue before making accusations about consistent language.

This certainly isn't somehow in a convoluted way evidence that SSG is nerfed.

I haven't been keeping up with the discussion in-depth (really just wanted to respond to that sentence) but I'm in complete agreement that God wasn't nerfed.

[Lord Beerus]

Jiren's strength in relation to the Hakaishin is very peculiar in both mediums.

In the anime, the story flat out states Jiren is stronger than Vermoud, and the Vermoud is stronger than Beerus. But then Beerus majorly plays the comparison in strength down by stating that he only lost once to Vermound in an arm wrestling match. And to be fair, the result of arm wrestling match in not a general barometer of measuring strength and skill in general combat. But it makes you wonder why Whis would say like that knowing the circumstances of Beerus' encounter with Vermoud, unless he knew it was a fact that Vermoud was stronger than Beerus. Or perhaps Whis could just be fucking around with Beerus. Then you have Whis repeat the same statement -- Jiren being stronger than a Hakaishin -- in the 109/110 double episode special.

But things get very messy with the introduction of Hakaishin Toppo. The story flat out states that Toppo has the power of a Hakaishin and even states he is no different to a Hakaishin, and yet SSJB Evolution Vegeta beats the fuck out of him and eliminates with one attack. And we later find out that SSJB Evolution Vegeta in only on par with Goku's SSJB Kaioken. So does that mean the strength of the Hakaishin's in general is that spread out where if Toppo can attain the power of a Hakaishin someone like SSJB Evolution Vegeta can still beat him, and yet Jiren being stronger than a Haikaishin puts him on a much high level of strength compared to Toppo to the point where only Ultra Instinct can defeat Jiren convincingly?

In the manga, we have the Hakaishin Battle Royale, and while it's too short and inconclusive to draw a complete scale of where the Hakaishin stand against each other in the pecking order of strength, it's implied that all the Hakaishin are in the same ballpark of power. And just like in the anime, we're flat out told that Jiren in more powerful than Vermoud.

The story in both mediums asserts that Jiren is stronger than a Hakaishin, but don't want to fully commit to him being stronger than all the Hakaishin.

The general gist I'm getting from Super regarding this topic in general is this:

"Okay. Jiren is stronger than Hakaishin. In fact, he may be stronger than ALL the Hakaishin. But, actually, he may not be really. But he could be. But we're not sure. Um... just come back later. We'll have a concrete answer for this. Maybe. Hopefully. When Toriyama eventually returns out calls."

[Miracles]

I don't think you understand. Nothing you posted shows or states directly with specifics that Jiren, UI Goku or Belmond is stronger than Beerus. You are only posting your desires through ambiguous text and inconclusive showings.

Well now you're just lying, I posted several excerpts proving you wrong. This is probably also why you abandoned any attempt at actually arguing points in favor of "u r rong".

Whis directly states that Jiren is stronger than the GoDs in general, at substantially below his full power.

Whis directly states that Beerus is weaker than a specific God of Destruction who is weaker than a specific mortal, who he later says is Jiren.

Vegeta and Kaioshin both directly state that a heavily suppressed Jiren surpasses any power they encountered previously, which includes Beerus and Whis's level when knocking him out.

The manga exhibition match directly shows Beerus getting exhausted and injured in a free-for-all with the other GoDs and sustaining wounds from their blows, showing that they're around the same strength.

The manga exhibition match directly shows Belmond trapping and pressuring Beerus in a ki sphere he can't break out of, yet Liquiir can.

Vegeta's statement doesn't prove anything either cause he has never seen Beerus full strength.

That's a nice fan fiction you have there. He has seen Beerus cut loose against Champa and he has seen Whis put down a raging Beerus with one hit. He's seen them beat each other bloody to the point where their eyes were swelled shut.

You're not being objective. None of your images and scans give a conclusion, specifically state or show Beerus being surpassed. Or Vegeta shown to have seen Beerus full power or Jiren being stronger than all the gods. Therefore you are just wrong about Beerus placement in the story.

[PFM18]

That corroborates my point though. Those last four adjectives are optional "or" conditions, so the primary definition isn't contingent on pure strength. Most standard dictionaries leave it at "causing fear, dread, or apprehension" with no further qualifiers, because while "formidable" can relate to strength, it more directly describes something that incites fear.

Ergo, Boo can be the most formidable opponent they've fought without necessarily having the most raw power. The original manga describes him as a terrifying threat due to his unpredictable nature, which is consistent with Dende's wording.

It is a term used to primarily describe something that incites fear, yes. But in a series like Dragon Ball where almost everything is tied to strength, it is almost undoubtedly fear as a direct result of the aforementioned strength. Sure, technically it is possible that this isn't related to power, but at the very least it is a misleading statement if Majin Boo at this point where Boo isn't really impressive in power compared to current threats. But this is kind of beside my main point.

I haven't been keeping up with the discussion in-depth (really just wanted to respond to that sentence) but I'm in complete agreement that God wasn't nerfed.

\

Yeah I only mentioned it because it was being argued as evidence that SSG was retroactively nerfed, rather than it either not referring to power or being a contradiction. My point was, that this dialogue isn't an indication that SSG is weaker than we originally thought.

[RandomGuy96]

None of your images and scans give a conclusion, specifically state or show Beerus being surpassed. Or Vegeta shown to have seen Beerus full power or Jiren being stronger than all the gods. Therefore you are just wrong about Beerus placement in the story.

You being an illiterate, an idiot, or both is not relevant to me.

[Miracles]

None of your images and scans give a conclusion, specifically state or show Beerus being surpassed. Or Vegeta shown to have seen Beerus full power or Jiren being stronger than all the gods. Therefore you are just wrong about Beerus placement in the story.

You being an illiterate, an idiot, or both is not relevant to me.

Well please, provide the parts where I missed the explicit/specific/conclusive/ directly confirmed statements saying Beerus is surpassed by people you claim.

[RandomGuy96]

Well please, provide the parts where I missed the explicit/specific/conclusive/ directly confirmed statements saying Beerus is surpassed by people you claim.

I did, repeatedly. You just ignored them or tried to fabricate fanfiction scenarios to get around them (e.g. "he never saw Beerus at full power" even though he saw Beerus and Champa beat each other into bloody messes).

Whis directly states that Jiren is stronger than the GoDs in general, at substantially below his full power. It is therefore impossible for Beerus to be stronger than Jiren unless he is also many times stronger than any other GoD, which we plainly see he is not.

Whis directly states that Beerus is weaker than a specific God of Destruction who is weaker than a specific mortal, who he later says is Jiren.

Vegeta and Kaioshin both directly state that a heavily suppressed Jiren surpasses any power they encountered previously, which includes Beerus and Whis's level when knocking him out, and includes Beerus and Champa going at each other full force to the extent they endanger the universe and grievously injure one another.

The manga exhibition match directly shows Beerus getting exhausted and injured in a free-for-all with the other GoDs and sustaining wounds from their blows, showing that they're around the same strength.

The manga exhibition match directly shows Belmond trapping and pressuring Beerus in a ki sphere he can't break out of, yet Liquiir can.

These are all direct comparisons.

[Marlowe89]

Sure, technically it is possible that this isn't related to power, but at the very least it is a misleading statement if Majin Boo at this point where Boo isn't really impressive in power compared to current threats.

I guess what I'm saying is that Dende was likely referring to how much of a threat Boo posed to Goku and the others; Beerus had no intention of destroying the planet, while Golden Freeza, Hit, and even Fused Zamasu weren't nearly as challenging to Goku at the time they fought. I think it's easy to construe him as his "most formidable" opponent in relative terms.

Infinite Zamasu is where the statement becomes a little debatable/misleading, although I suppose you could argue ignorance on Dende's part since he never travelled to Trunks' future.

[Miracles]

Well please, provide the parts where I missed the explicit/specific/conclusive/ directly confirmed statements saying Beerus is surpassed by people you claim.

I did, repeatedly. You just ignored them or tried to fabricate fanfiction scenarios to get around them (e.g. "he never saw Beerus at full power" even though he saw Beerus and Champa beat each other into bloody messes).

Whis directly states that Jiren is stronger than the GoDs in general, at substantially below his full power. It is therefore impossible for Beerus to be stronger than Jiren unless he is also many times stronger than any other GoD, which we plainly see he is not.

Whis directly states that Beerus is weaker than a specific God of Destruction who is weaker than a specific mortal, who he later says is Jiren.

Vegeta and Kaioshin both directly state that a heavily suppressed Jiren surpasses any power they encountered previously, which includes Beerus and Whis's level when knocking him out, and includes Beerus and Champa going at each other full force to the extent they endanger the universe and grievously injure one another.

The manga exhibition match directly shows Beerus getting exhausted and injured in a free-for-all with the other GoDs and sustaining wounds from their blows, showing that they're around the same strength.

The manga exhibition match directly shows Belmond trapping and pressuring Beerus in a ki sphere he can't break out of, yet Liquiir can.

These are all direct comparisons.

Sigh, let me give you an example of just how wrong you are concerning direct objective facts...

RandomGuy96: "Whis directly states that Jiren is stronger than the GoDs in general..."

Dragonball Super says:

Spoiler:

What you say doesn't match up with the story. Therefore headcannon.

[RandomGuy96]

What you say doesn't match up with the story. Therefore headcannon.

Big words coming from an illiterate. As I said, even if you take particular statement to mean Jiren is only on par with them (because there's absolutely no "perhaps" when Whis says he reached that level), he powers up several different times after that occasion. Off the top of my head: in 115 Belmond notes that he's never seen Jiren so strong, so he's more powerful than earlier. In 126 he powers up to what is normally his full strength. And in 130 he gets even gets stronger towards the end of the tournament and far exceeds what used to be his limit, to the point of clearly overpowering MUI Goku, who a minute ago was ragdolling him. Meaning that, in the anime, he's directly stated to be stronger than them.

Jiren (130) >>> Jiren (126) > Jiren (115) > Jiren (110) >= Gods of Destruction in general

And this is only one statement. I see you're still trying really hard to ignore the others, or the manga where it's clearly demonstrated Beerus is not special among GoDs, and particularly that time in the anime where Beerus and Champa beat each other nearly unconscious, clearly demonstrating that they were at full power. Only for Vegeta to directly state later that such power was puny compared to an ultra-suppressed Jiren (though less suppressed than he was earlier in 110, when he was stated to be on the level of the GoDs).

[Miracles]

What you say doesn't match up with the story. Therefore headcannon.

Big words coming from an illiterate. As I said, even if you take particular statement to mean Jiren is only on par with them (because there's absolutely no "perhaps" when Whis says he reached that level), he powers up several different times after that occasion. Off the top of my head: in 115 Belmond notes that he's never seen Jiren so strong, so he's more powerful than earlier. In 126 he powers up to what is normally his full strength. And in 130 he gets even gets stronger towards the end of the tournament and far exceeds what used to be his limit, to the point of clearly overpowering MUI Goku, who a minute ago was ragdolling him. Meaning that, in the anime, he's directly stated to be stronger than them.

Jiren (130) >>> Jiren (126) > Jiren (115) > Jiren (110) >= Gods of Destruction in general

And this is only one statement. I see you're still trying really hard to ignore the others, or the manga where it's clearly demonstrated Beerus is not special among GoDs, and particularly that time in the anime where Beerus and Champa beat each other nearly unconscious, clearly demonstrating that they were at full power. Only for Vegeta to directly state later that such power was puny compared to an ultra-suppressed Jiren (though less suppressed than he was earlier in 110, when he was stated to be on the level of the GoDs).

Your other examples are the same. Out of context, general, non conclusive without specific confirmations. So I showed you in one of your examples that you are trying to insert your own feelings in the story. Look how you are trying to mental hoop through Jiren not being stronger than all the gods with your "but he powered up after that." So what, even then no one claimed he surpassed all the gods let alone Beerus. You have to use statements from the story not your own wants and wishes.