What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by PFM18 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:23 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Kuwabara wrote: Why is it a fantasy? You sound like an asshole when you say it like that. It's his opinion, and from what I've seen, he frequently goes out of his way to support his thoughts.
No, no God forbid somebody actually likes and enjoys the new material! I realize I'm in the minority so given the way the general population feels about it, it would seem to most that considering it a well executed show is not a reality, but I don't necessarily care. But somebody asking for you to support your opinion being met by claiming that evaluating the show as good is a fantasy is just not right.

Other people's loss though, it has thoroughly revitalized my love for this franchise.
Nobody said you can't enjoy it. But the abysmal production schedule, the lack of communication between writers (and toriyama), the art issues, the animation issues, abysmal score - these are all objectively there and a considerable step down from its predecessor. So yeah, go ahead and enjoy it I guess.
it is "objective" to say that there's a poor production schedule, because well that is well documented and we are well aware of it, but even that inherently subjective to some extent because how people define how bad is "poor" is subjective. But it doesn't even make sense to be like "There's production issues, therefore it is bad" because you aren't actually addressing anything within the show itself. You would have to actually argue where these production issues actually manifested themselves for it to have any real meaning. It is just a convenient way to undermine the show with no real substance whatsoever.

Everything else you said is either extremely subjective or just your speculation. Especially the score. How the hell can you say the score is objectively bad? Music is the most subjective thing out there. You have no idea how well the writers communicate with each other you're just speculating. Again, animation is very subjective and you're just factually incorrect in saying that it is objective. And as I see things, anything past the retellings is far superior to anything we saw in Z outside of the movies or maybe parts of the Buu arc. Especially the ToP, which is, save for the DBS movie, by far the best animation in the franchise. Certainly not "a considerable step down from it's predecessor." As far as the art that's just your preference if anything and not even remotely objective.

That last part is just a passive aggressive way to undermine me actually liking it.
Shaddy wrote:Production issues are a thing that existed, but whether those things are directly tied to the actual quality of the result (and if so, how much) comes down to the opinions of the viewer. It's subjective. You're gonna probably say it's not an opinion and is an "objective fact" in the future, but it's still gonna be an opinion and people are going to keep telling you it's an opinion.
Pretty much yeah. How the production issues actually manifest themselves and if the resulting show managed to compensate for that is entirely subjective.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Yuli Ban » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:12 pm

Universe 6 Saiyans. Not any one in particular either since the three we know have redeemable traits. You'd have to combine the worst of them all.

I know I'm a child of Z and the dub when I say this but the U6 Saiyans are #NotMySaiyans. My Saiyans are supposed to be ultraviolent savages! A mixture between pirates, Mongols, and chimpanzees (with prehensile monkey tails to boot). The fact Son Goku and Vegeta became "good" works on a narrative level because it shows how much they had to grow. I could write you an essay on the thematic symbolism, but to cut it short: the U6 Saiyans don't feel like Saiyans. They feel like humans cosplaying as Saiyans. I would have argued Caulifla is a return to the norm, but the manga turned her into Robin Hood.

Now I'm not saying they should be a Planet of Hats, but it would have been better to keep them contrasted from Earthlings by playing up how uncontrollably aggressive and battle-hungry they are. It makes the hybrids less special as well!

I want my blood-soaked barbarian battlemonkeys back!
Image

Call me old-school, but I like my Saiyans how I like my Klingons— violent. The U6 Saiyans would have been a better parallel to the U7 Saiyans if they were in control of an intergalactic empire. That tells me that U6 Saiyans have more self-control without completely retconning what we knew about Saiyan behavior and psychology— U6 Saiyans achieved cosmic glory while U7 Saiyans died under the bootheel of a lizard and their final legacy comes in the form of increasingly diluted genes on a backwater planet.
I don't particularly care for how strong they were, too (that was entirely just to make sure the trio + Kefla could keep up with Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan), but that could have been rectified by showing that U6 Saiyans are also literally millions of times stronger than U7 Saiyans ever could have hoped to have been. They're what if Freeza wasn't around to stop them from growing stronger.
Basically, the U6 Saiyans should have been the Saiyan race Vegeta always goes on about— truly the most powerful warrior race in the universe. Instead, they feel more like humans with slightly spikier hair and vegetable-pun names. Super Saiyan is not a state of hyper battle instincts and extreme power; it's just a hair dye.

Christ, they don't even have tails!

It's like looking at post-Boo Goku, Vegeta, and the hybrids and completely misunderstanding why they work.
Last edited by Yuli Ban on Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by TheMikado » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:51 pm

Yuli Ban wrote:Universe 6 Saiyans. Not any one in particular either since the three we know have redeemable traits. You'd have to combine the worst of them all.

I know I'm a child of Z and the dub when I say this but the U6 Saiyans are #NotMySaiyans. My Saiyans are supposed to be ultraviolent savages! A mixture between pirates, Mongols, and chimpanzees (with prehensile monkey tails to boot). The fact Son Goku and Vegeta became "good" works on a narrative level because it shows how much they had to grow. I could write you an essay on the thematic symbolism, but to cut it short: the U6 Saiyans don't feel like Saiyans. They feel like humans cosplaying as Saiyans. I would have argued Caulifla is a return to the norm, but the manga turned her into Robin Hood.

Now I'm not saying they should be a Planet of Hats, but it would have been better to keep them contrasted from Earthlings by playing up how uncontrollably aggressive and battle-hungry they are. It makes the hybrids less special as well!

I want my blood-soaked barbarian battlemonkeys back!
Image

Call me old-school, but I like my Saiyans how I like my Klingons— violent. The U6 Saiyans would have been a better parallel to the U7 Saiyans if they were in control of an intergalactic empire. That tells me that U6 Saiyans have more self-control without completely retconning what we knew about Saiyan behavior and psychology— U6 Saiyans achieved cosmic glory while U7 Saiyans died under the bootheel of a dictator and their final legacy comes in the form of increasingly diluted genes on a backwater planet.
I don't particularly care for how strong they were, too (that was entirely just to make sure the trio + Kefla could keep up with Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan), but that could have been rectified by showing that U6 Saiyans are also literally millions of times stronger than U7 Saiyans ever could have hoped to have been. They're what if Freeza wasn't around to stop them from growing stronger.
Basically, the U6 Saiyans should have been the Saiyan race Vegeta always goes on about— truly the most powerful warrior race in the universe. Instead, they feel more like humans with slightly spikier hair and vegetable-pun names. Super Saiyan is not a state of hyper battle instincts and extreme power; it's just a hair dye.

Christ, they don't even have tails!

It's like looking at post-Boo Goku, Vegeta, and the hybrids and completely misunderstanding why they work.
Right here with you. For a long time Saiyans were the single most ruthless and sadistic race. Within our first introduction we get Raditz attacking his own brother, kidnapping his nephew, demanding Goku lay 100 dead bodies at his feet in 24 hours, plus saibamen, Vegeta killing Nappa, Vegeta slaughtering Namekian villages, etc.
the cuddly saiyans of today suck hard.

Now as for the lamest thing. I’d like to nominate the pseudo SSJ4 we got going on now. It’s not even original and somehow is even less inventive and makes even less sense than the original version. I’m really trying not to hate modern DB but it’s getting very close to making be dump the whole franchise entirely.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:11 pm

Yuli Ban wrote:The fact Son Goku and Vegeta became "good"
Dude, huh? Gokû was never an evil character at all, perhaps during his childhood era he misbehaved but he was somewhat a normal boy (well, a monkey boy) living in the forest. I honestly don't get where you got the idea that Son is "good" rather than good, you could say that about Vegeta since it's a character that can get pissed the hell off and blast everything to oblivion.

Image

Don't forget Vegeta went around planets killing innocent beings as Freeza told him and he very much enjoyed it. Softening up Vegeta was a bad idea, he was much better off the way he originally was, evil and ruthless.

Majin Vegeta and Duplicate Vegeta have in common that they showed the true Vegeta persona and heck, I loved that. :)

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Yuli Ban » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:37 pm

JohnnyCashKami wrote:
Yuli Ban wrote:The fact Son Goku and Vegeta became "good"
Dude, huh? Gokû was never an evil character at all, perhaps during his childhood era he misbehaved but he was somewhat a normal boy (well, a monkey boy) living in the forest. I honestly don't get where you got the idea that Son is "good" rather than good
BEFORE THE MINUS RETCON...
Son Goku was supposed to destroy Earth. Not to rubble, but to remove the dominant civilization. That was his goal. He was a low-class child sent out to cleanse this world and prepare it for trade to a buyer (who this buyer was supposed to be, we might never know). However, due to circumstance, he lost his original programming/instincts, instincts borne from an insane warrior race so bloodthirsty and desperate for battle that they were sending newborns off just for the cause.
Contrast this with Piccolo. Piccolo hails from a peaceful race of aliens. Namekians bear much in relation to indigenous rural types, not living beyond their means. Every Namekian the senshi came across in Z (minus Slug) was a fairly docile person who wanted to do right. However, due to circumstances, Piccolo manifested from Kami and became a demonic entity hellbent on doing evil. The original Piccolo was killed and his son was raised for the sole purpose of avenging his father against this monkey.
It's a neat parallel— one was sent to destroy the world and wound up becoming its greatest savior; the other was originally a gentle soul corrupted by the horrors of the world and wanted to destroy it.
Literati types would call it "dramatic thematic irony." This is also around the time of Dragon Ball's peak, as generally agreed upon by fans. It's no coincidence— there was an actual theme, a cohesive narrative (even if it wasn't entirely pre-planned). Things feel epic because they are. I often said that Dragon Ball never had that classic line "You and I really aren't that different" that other, stronger stories have— until I realized it really did but never explicitly said it and probably didn't intend for it. The Son Goku vs Piccolo rivalry was entirely this; Piccolo was what Goku was supposed to be.

Son Goku is an aberration. He is a mentally ill Saiyan. Saiyans are bloodthirsty Space Spartans— they fight for bloodsport. They aren't heroes. If they ever do anything heroic, it's by accident. Son Goku himself doesn't see himself as much of a hero to begin with since he still has the Saiyan lust for battle— it's just that he values others' lives and doesn't actively set out to harm other people. Fighting to help others is just as fun as fighting to harm others because you're still fighting, and you even get to meet new friends along the way while at the same time you don't bring misery to others. Son Goku's way is righteous, if still violent. It's also exactly what you could expect a "righteous" Saiyan to be like since Son Goku is not a pacifist and never will be one. He is the One, sort of like a Saiyan messiah. The reason why all the other Saiyans never rose beyond a certain level is because they were selfish and motivated by their own sadism. They killed without mercy. It was implied all Saiyans were like this, and that's why they were used by Freeza for his planet trade organization.

AFTER MINUS...

Son Goku isn't particularly strange anymore. His mother was a softy, and it's implied there are other such softies out there— they just get sent to be workers rather than warriors since, admittedly, a merciful and kind person doesn't make for a high-quality soldier (think of the US Marines and their whole program of trying to turn men into killing machines; Saiyans before now were basically an entire planet of US Marines). Bardock was "infected" with this softness as well. And then there's the U6 Saiyans in general, who are psychologically much more like U7 hybrids.

The previously established narrative falls apart. Goku wasn't sent to destroy Earth; he was sent just to survive and he was the child of gentler Saiyans than most. Raditz only remained a jerk because he was effectively raised by Vegeta (who himself was raised/corrupted by Freeza) and Nappa. Piccolo's side still works (until Toei decides to flesh out that part of the story for whatever reason). But the whole simple (but not any less deep and meaningful) conflict is gone.

In my opinion, it's the best argue for why "simple" plots don't necessarily equal "shallow" plots. The Goku vs. Piccolo arc was simple and easy to understand, but it was easily one of the deepest in manga because of what it represented. Nü Dragon Ball misunderstands the difference and thinks "bare bones and 100% predictable" = "simple and elegant".

And I disagree that Vegeta was better as a dickwad, but that's just my personal feeling. To me, it also serves the purpose of highlighting many traits about Saiyans and how they developed. Vegeta was always going to be an aggressive prick and generally unlikable guy by human standards, but Freeza corrupted him to a ridiculous degree (as with Tagoma). Now would I have preferred that this was always Vegeta's nature? Personally, yes! But to me, that makes his personal change ever since that much more meaningful. It shows Vegeta is a dynamic character rather than a static one. And considering he's one of the main characters, that's very much a welcome thing.
Vegeta proves Saiyans can be civilized but are still forever apart from humans. His story is a bit tragic in that regard and no one thinks about it much— imagine if Prince William was stuck on an alien planet and his only human company was a low-IQ redneck. He'd be all alone in many ways, even if he found a mate on the planet.

All in all, a lot of that symbolism is lost by making Saiyans boy scouts who just had a few bad apples.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:51 pm

Dragon Ball Heroes

Is the definition of flash and no substance, there's no character arc, no thematic thread linking any of what happens, no themes and ideas being explored or developed. The only kind of redeemeable quality it has is its making me laught to whatever ridiculous concept it comes up with (like SS4 Gohan/Broly or A17 & A18 fusion).
Lore is NOT story, and it never was, and you should stop spreading this nonsense.
Content is NOT substance.
Bunch of characters doing stuff do NOT make an esemble cast.
Secondary characters are secondary, they do NOT deserve or are entitled to having more screen time.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Attitudefan » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:31 pm

Biggest mistake most franchises do--because it is easy to milk--is to change or create new backstories. Usually it serves to subvert or marginalize the plot and the character development in the first place. Minus is the biggest blow to all of Dragon Ball. It ruins the whole narrative, particularly from the Saiyan arc onwards. Saiyans are not so evil, making Raditz, Nappa, and Vegeta more like anomalies than Goku. It subverts Vegeta's character as Saiyans can be soft through birth, ergo his softening up on Earth isn't out of the ordinary but an easy possibility; only Freeza corrupts Saiyans. Saiyans now are just unaging humans that like to fight with their fists a bit more than using weapons.

We never needed to know Goku's mother. And armour is now fashion too rather than just battle armour (and they are dresses now too just to show how fashionable these are). So dumb and LAME.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:57 pm

Yuli Ban wrote:Raditz only remained a jerk because he was effectively raised by Vegeta (who himself was raised/corrupted by Freeza) and Nappa.

Vegeta was always going to be an aggressive prick and generally unlikable guy by human standards, but Freeza corrupted him to a ridiculous degree (as with Tagoma).
Vegeta was never "corrupted" by Freeza, nor was he raised by him. To the best we can surmise, Nappa most likely took over raising Vegeta after his father and the rest of the race's destruction (which makes Vegeta's killing of him all the more fucked up). And the whole plotline of Vegeta being "corrupted" by Freeza is 100% a FUNimation dub-only invention, no different than Bardock the Brilliant Scientist and so forth. Its never been present in the Japanese version at any point: Vegeta is the way he is entirely because of both his own choosing and the fact that he's the Saiya-jin prince.

Vegeta hates Freeza because he resents having to live underneath him as his underling: he sees himself as nobility, as a warrior prince of the mightiest fighters in the universe, subservient to no one... and yet he's forced to cower in fear of Freeza's power and answer to his orders. This tweaks at his ego, his insecurity, and his massive inferiority complex, which are the key fundamentals of his entire character (much as I'm loathe to quote from TFS, they pretty much nailed it when they had Cell refer to Vegeta as "a walking Napoleon Complex"). This deeply-held resentment at having to be Freeza's lapdog for most of his life however is the sum total of their relationship: anything else beyond that is basically fan fiction.

I can only presume that you're taking the whole "Vegeta was corrupted by Freeza" angle from his dying speech to Goku on Namek: again though, that was totally an original invention of the FUNimation dub, and was never said in the Japanese version of that scene, nor was this idea ever a part of his character anywhere else other than FUNimation's dialogue. It was invented purely as a way of softening and watering down Vegeta's character to make him more "sympathetic" and "palatable" as a hero-in-the-making for a U.S. kids' show, to lessen the extent of the blame onto him for his murderous actions.

In the original Japanese series though, Vegeta has no one else to blame for his sadism and barbarism other than himself.
Last edited by Kunzait_83 on Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:00 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:In the original series, Vegeta has no one to blame for his sadism and barbarism other than himself.
I would extend this last sentiment to the entire species: the Saiyans were always ruthless bastards, they are by default bad people who enjoy morally reprehensible behavior. Hence why any attempt to try soften them up or blame it on Freeza rings really hollow.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Yuli Ban » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:04 pm

Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:Dragon Ball Heroes

Is the definition of flash and no substance, there's no character arc, no thematic thread linking any of what happens, no themes and ideas being explored or developed. The only kind of redeemeable quality it has is its making me laught to whatever ridiculous concept it comes up with (like SS4 Gohan/Broly or A17 & A18 fusion).
The question there is "does it count as 'Modern DB?' Dragon Ball Heroes is actually nearly a decade old. Hell, it's been the focal point of multiple Dragon Ball myths! Remember Dragon Ball Hoshi? Entirely based on Heroes promos. I still remember seeing "Super Saiyan 3 Future Trunks" and thinking that was for a new DB series, only to be disappointed to learn that it was just a promo from a Japan-only card game. This was before even Battle of Gods, when the idea that there'd ever be a proper continuation of the series was entirely a fantasy.

In my eyes, "modern Dragon Ball" begins with Yo!! Son Goku and His Friends Return, but I know some feel it begins with Battle of Gods. By the time BoG came out, Heroes had already been around for 3 years or so.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Yuli Ban » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:06 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Yuli Ban wrote:Raditz only remained a jerk because he was effectively raised by Vegeta (who himself was raised/corrupted by Freeza) and Nappa.

Vegeta was always going to be an aggressive prick and generally unlikable guy by human standards, but Freeza corrupted him to a ridiculous degree (as with Tagoma).
I can only presume that you're taking the whole "Vegeta was corrupted by Freeza" angle from his dying speech to Goku on Namek
Actually, I'm taking it not from anything Vegeta said but from observing the change in Tagoma's character, as I stated in my post. Tagoma was evil, but rationally so when Freeza was resurrected. After four months of relentless abuse and training, Tagoma's demeanor completely changed into the shockingly cold and sadistic persona Vegeta used to have. And he credited Freeza with teaching him these things.
At least at the moment, we have nothing written or stated that outright says whether or not Vegeta really was always the brute he was in the Saiyan invasion arc whereas we do have some evidence that Freeza can act as a corrupter (of course, this mainly uses the anime rather than the movie, and everything about nü Dragon Ball is such a clusterfuck that there isn't even a manga adaptation to fall back on either). Looking at it from a literary standpoint (for a children's cartoon), it's best to assume correlation = causation until proven otherwise. But of course this is Dragon Ball, where correlation = cocaine half the time.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by TheMikado » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:17 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:In the original series, Vegeta has no one to blame for his sadism and barbarism other than himself.
I would extend this last sentiment to the entire species: the Saiyans were always ruthless bastards, they are by default bad people who enjoy morally reprehensible behavior. Hence why any attempt to try soften them up or blame it on Freeza rings really hollow.
And worse makes major plot points and reveals not make sense with established lore. For instance we know Goku was a wild monster baby until he hit his head and became docile. Implying his true nature was aggressive. Yet we find now that his try nature was relatively soft and docile, so why was he attacking Grandpa Gohan?? And why would memory loss result in him regaining his “true” nature back. To correct this they would have to add some bogus “oh he was given training on the pod subconsciously while he slept” or something else. Basically continuing to pile explanations on top of explanations just to try to make the new stuff fit in and make sense.

I said this before and I’ll say it again. Inserting Beerus retroactively into DB lore was just the beginning of the end of the franchise. It was never going to stop there if they wanted to add more content and DB is now being written by a group that doesn’t respect the established lore and a Toriyama who is no longer in his prime as a writer and manga artist. We are not getting the “best” of the Dragonball story, we are getting whatever is left in the tank and it’s retroactively ruining the franchise by changing or altering key established plot points and themes. I predicted we would get LSSJ back in 2015/2016 and even get a “canonized” Broly because the cash grab would be easy and we’re now on the verge of what appears to be an uninspired, unoriginal stab at the SSJ4 form. Sometimes it’s better to let franchises die in greatness then to sully their reputation with mediocrity long after its sell by date.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:26 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:In the original series, Vegeta has no one to blame for his sadism and barbarism other than himself.
I would extend this last sentiment to the entire species: the Saiyans were always ruthless bastards, they are by default bad people who enjoy morally reprehensible behavior. Hence why any attempt to try soften them up or blame it on Freeza rings really hollow.
True, but I figure that goes without saying, especially given the rant of Yuli's that I was responding to. :P But yes, the general fact that the Saiya-jin are a culture of space barbarians and all around sacks of shit who kill and slaughter just for the fun of it obviously has a lot to do with it as well: to say nothing of the fact that Vegeta is their prince and was raised by his father the King to absorb that title as deeply into the core of his identity as possible. Any "corrupting" that was done to Vegeta as a small kid was clearly done by his father long before Freeza ever entered the picture.
Yuli Ban wrote:Actually, I'm taking it not from anything Vegeta said but from observing the change in Tagoma's character, as I stated in my post. Tagoma was evil, but rationally so when Freeza was resurrected. After four months of relentless abuse and training, Tagoma's demeanor completely changed into the shockingly cold and sadistic persona Vegeta used to have. And he credited Freeza with teaching him these things.
Then that's even more of a tenuous grasping at straws. First of all, there's nothing remotely to suggest that Vegeta had ever trained with or under Freeza during his time under his command. Furthermore, Tagoma was clearly always a loyal and devoted acolyte to Freeza: so if spending time training with Freeza had that sort of influence on him, then he was clearly the sort of minion who'd be receptive to further indoctrination from Freeza.

Vegeta by contrast was never a devoted or loyal minion: has always utterly loathed and resented Freeza's presence in his life, and has spend most of his life scheming to find some way out of serving underneath him (finally finding opportunity with the Dragon Balls). Until Goku came along, Freeza was the person Vegeta despised and detested the most out of anyone else in his life: the odds of Freeza having any sort of direct influencing sway over Vegeta's mentality and actions I find to be dubiously suspect, at best.

From everything that we've ever been shown (both in the manga and the anime) Vegeta's time under Freeza was largely spent begrudgingly carrying out orders: going from planet to planet and wiping out their civilizations before moving onto the next, grimacing at having to answer to someone above him every step of the way. There isn't anything at any point that even so much as hints at or suggests that Vegeta was influenced by, trained with, or raised by Freeza. Its mainly suggested that Nappa, if anyone, had probably finished raising Vegeta after planet Vegeta's destruction.

The same goes for the Saiya-jin as a whole: from everything that's been shown (again, in the original run of the series) the Saiya-jin as a race were ALWAYS murderously hostile and genocidal from moment one, long before Freeza ever entered the picture. Freeza never needed to "corrupt" them: he simply redirected them for his own ends, using their savagery as a personal weapon, and dispensing with the majority of them when he found their viciousness and brute force to be too unwieldy.

Vegeta is the way he is when we first meet him (a murderously egomaniacal psychopath responsible for the deaths of countless trillions) because that's how pretty much ALL of the Saiya-jin are portrayed as (at least pre-Minus): and furthermore, he's the prince who was raised by his father to take a ridiculous amount of obsessive pride in their royal nobility status. So all the obsession with his personal status clearly came largely, if not entirely, from King Vegeta.

Between the Saiya-jin being a race and culture made up entirely of ruthlessly sadistic and genocidally bloodthirsty space-ape Vikings/Spartans and Vegeta being part of their royal family who raised him to be obsessed with their status as such... he'd very likely be every bit the same person we meet him as post-Raditz, with or without Freeza's presence in his life. The only difference perhaps is that he'd simply be less weaselly conniving in many of his actions because without Freeza, he wouldn't need to be concocting Machiavellian schemes to usurp someone who is above his power and stature.

This all contrasts greatly with what VERY little we know about a character like Tagoma, who's very much more in the "true believer" mold of Freeza underlings, similar to someone like Captain Ginyu in most respects. Freeza's soldiers, from what we've always been shown, seem to largely come in three main flavors:

Flavor A: those who are forced against their will into serving him out of fear of reprisal
Flavor B: those who are already criminally psychotic and just think "what the hell, this will probably be fun, and it pays well" and follow along for the sheer fuck of it
and Flavor C: those who are genuine believers in Freeza as their Great Leader and who are fanatically devoted to serving him faithfully.

Vegeta is unquestionably Flavor A, while someone like Tagoma is Flavor C, and the Saiya-jin as an overall race were certainly Flavor B. And Flavor A also makes perfect sense for Vegeta because it also plays into another one of his biggest character traits, at least from his early villainous days: that deep down, beneath all the macho bravado and speechifying about being the Prince of the Mightiest Warrior Race, he's actually kind of a gigantic fucking coward when all is said and done, and doesn't really grow much of a courageous streak in him until he gains more of a positive influence from Goku and the other Earth warriors over a LONG stretch of time living among them.
Last edited by Kunzait_83 on Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by zarmack » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:49 pm

TheMikado wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:In the original series, Vegeta has no one to blame for his sadism and barbarism other than himself.
I would extend this last sentiment to the entire species: the Saiyans were always ruthless bastards, they are by default bad people who enjoy morally reprehensible behavior. Hence why any attempt to try soften them up or blame it on Freeza rings really hollow.
And worse makes major plot points and reveals not make sense with established lore. For instance we know Goku was a wild monster baby until he hit his head and became docile. Implying his true nature was aggressive. Yet we find now that his try nature was relatively soft and docile, so why was he attacking Grandpa Gohan?? And why would memory loss result in him regaining his “true” nature back. To correct this they would have to add some bogus “oh he was given training on the pod subconsciously while he slept” or something else. Basically continuing to pile explanations on top of explanations just to try to make the new stuff fit in and make sense.

I said this before and I’ll say it again. Inserting Beerus retroactively into DB lore was just the beginning of the end of the franchise. It was never going to stop there if they wanted to add more content and DB is now being written by a group that doesn’t respect the established lore and a Toriyama who is no longer in his prime as a writer and manga artist. We are not getting the “best” of the Dragonball story, we are getting whatever is left in the tank and it’s retroactively ruining the franchise by changing or altering key established plot points and themes. I predicted we would get LSSJ back in 2015/2016 and even get a “canonized” Broly because the cash grab would be easy and we’re now on the verge of what appears to be an uninspired, unoriginal stab at the SSJ4 form. Sometimes it’s better to let franchises die in greatness then to sully their reputation with mediocrity long after its sell by date.
By that logic the franchise should have ended with the Namek arc, because no story arc before nor after it has ever close in quality.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:01 pm

zarmack wrote:
By that logic the franchise should have ended with the Namek arc, because no story arc before nor after it has ever close in quality.
Aside from the Tournament saga, Tenshinhan saga, Piccolo Daimou saga, Piccolo Jr saga, Saiyan saga, Android saga

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by zarmack » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:11 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
zarmack wrote:
By that logic the franchise should have ended with the Namek arc, because no story arc before nor after it has ever close in quality.
Aside from the Tournament saga, Tenshinhan saga, Piccolo Daimou saga, Piccolo Jr saga, Saiyan saga, Android saga
The Piccolo/23rd TB, Saiyan and Namek arcs are the only 3 storylines in the franchise that could be called objectively good. The rest are either average overall (with good ideas/missed potential) or just plain bad.

Dragonball on the whole has mainly gotten by through the appeal of it characters (and occasional development of some of them), the fights, the humor, Toriyama's technical skills as a mangaka (in his prime) and some of the better add-ins from Toei in the 90s. Not its storytelling (outside of the 3 sagas I listed).

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by TheMikado » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:12 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
zarmack wrote:
By that logic the franchise should have ended with the Namek arc, because no story arc before nor after it has ever close in quality.
Aside from the Tournament saga, Tenshinhan saga, Piccolo Daimou saga, Piccolo Jr saga, Saiyan saga, Android saga
Pretty much. IMO Nameck was no where near the pinnacle of the DB series but that’s because of my eternal hate for Frieza as a character. Personal favorite is the Saiyan arc but that’s likely because that’s where I was introduced to DB back on its original run in the states.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by TheMikado » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:15 pm

zarmack wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:
zarmack wrote:
By that logic the franchise should have ended with the Namek arc, because no story arc before nor after it has ever close in quality.
Aside from the Tournament saga, Tenshinhan saga, Piccolo Daimou saga, Piccolo Jr saga, Saiyan saga, Android saga
The Piccolo/23rd TB, Saiyan and Namek arcs are the only 3 storylines in the franchise that could be called objectively good. The rest are either average overall (with good ideas/missed potential) or just plain bad.

Dragonball on the whole has mainly gotten by through the appeal of it characters (and occasional development of some of them), the fights, the humor, Toriyama's technical skills as a mangaka (in his prime) and some of the better add-ins from Toei in the 90s. Not its storytelling (outside of the 3 sagas I listed).
Toriyamas skills as a world and lore builder can’t be ignored. The saiyans and Namekians and their backstories were fantastic and linked the dragonball world to the universe in a convincing way. Even the Earth world was wide and open with lots of lore surrounding the DBs and the world as a whole, it was this combined with the characters in those worlds which made it engaging.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by zarmack » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:19 pm

TheMikado wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:
zarmack wrote:
By that logic the franchise should have ended with the Namek arc, because no story arc before nor after it has ever close in quality.
Aside from the Tournament saga, Tenshinhan saga, Piccolo Daimou saga, Piccolo Jr saga, Saiyan saga, Android saga
Pretty much. IMO Nameck was no where near the pinnacle of the DB series but that’s because of my eternal hate for Frieza as a character. Personal favorite is the Saiyan arc but that’s likely because that’s where I was introduced to DB back on its original run in the states.
Freeza is an objectively better character with a better narrative connected to him than 98% of the cast and is easily the best villain in the franchise. The only 4 characters undeniably better written/characterized than him are Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks and Bulma (Piccolo and Gohan are debatable, but no one else comes close.)

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:21 pm

zarmack wrote:The Piccolo/23rd TB, Saiyan and Namek arcs are the only 3 storylines in the franchise that could be called objectively good. The rest are either average overall (with good ideas/missed potential) or just plain bad.

Dragonball on the whole has mainly gotten by through the appeal of it characters (and occasional development of some of them), the fights, the humor, Toriyama's technical skills as a mangaka (in his prime) and some of the better add-ins from Toei in the 90s. Not its storytelling (outside of the 3 sagas I listed).
There's nothing at all wrong with the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai arc (Tenshinhan and the Crane school) from a straightforward narrative perspective (apart from perhaps unoriginality, since its heavily lifted and re-purposed from another martial arts film). Same goes for the 21st Budokai arc (Jackie Chun). Red Ribbon's also largely fine for the most part.

People have their qualms with the Daimao arc, but I certainly wouldn't call it "objectively bad" by any stretch. For me, I've always argued that the 22nd Budokai all the way through the Namek arc is the single best uninterrupted stretch of the entire franchise.
http://80s90sdragonballart.tumblr.com/

Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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