What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:26 pm

zarmack wrote:

Freeza is an objectively better character with a better narrative connected to him than 98% of the cast and is easily the best villain in the franchise. The only 4 characters undeniably better written/characterized than him are Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks and Bulma (Piccolo and Gohan are debatable, but no one else comes close.)
You keep using that word “objectively” as if that gives your argument greater weight. What makes Freeza an objectively better character? He’s got some cool designs, and he’s functional in his role as Space Hitler, and has some great performances by his Japanese actor and Chris Ayres but there’s nothing especially great about him.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:30 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote: Same goes for the 21st Budokai arc (Jackie Chun). Red Ribbon's also largely fine for the most part.
.
The 21st Budokai arc is a bit of a slog during the training part but once we get to the actual tournament its a lot of fun especially Roshi’s motivation for defeating Goku and Krillin.

As for the Red Ribbon arc if it weren’t for that slog in the General Blue portion it would be damn near perfect. Red Ribbon introduced some great characters like Murasaki and Android 8 and Tao Pei Pei

But my God is the Pirate Treasure stuff during General Blue such a bore

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by zarmack » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:48 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
zarmack wrote:The Piccolo/23rd TB, Saiyan and Namek arcs are the only 3 storylines in the franchise that could be called objectively good. The rest are either average overall (with good ideas/missed potential) or just plain bad.

Dragonball on the whole has mainly gotten by through the appeal of it characters (and occasional development of some of them), the fights, the humor, Toriyama's technical skills as a mangaka (in his prime) and some of the better add-ins from Toei in the 90s. Not its storytelling (outside of the 3 sagas I listed).
There's nothing at all wrong with the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai arc (Tenshinhan and the Crane school) from a straightforward narrative perspective (apart from perhaps unoriginality, since its heavily lifted and re-purposed from another martial arts film). Same goes for the 21st Budokai arc (Jackie Chun). Red Ribbon's also largely fine for the most part.

People have their qualms with the Daimao arc, but I certainly wouldn't call it "objectively bad" by any stretch. For me, I've always argued that the 22nd Budokai all the way through the Namek arc is the single best uninterrupted stretch of the entire franchise.
You are actually right. I think I underrated the 22nd TB arc. Its just that everything before that wasn't terrible (I don't think ANY of the arcs of the original manga are terrible), just nothing special overall.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:00 pm

Yuli Ban wrote: The question there is "does it count as 'Modern DB?' Dragon Ball Heroes is actually nearly a decade old.
For me modern DB begins with the first new (by new I mean not repeating the story over and over, like the videogames did before Dragon Ball Online & Heroes) thing that was produced after GT's ending in Japan.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Yuli Ban » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:08 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:People have their qualms with the Daimao arc, but I certainly wouldn't call it "objectively bad" by any stretch. For me, I've always argued that the 22nd Budokai all the way through the Namek arc is the single best uninterrupted stretch of the entire franchise.
Well no wonder. This part of the series follows the cycle of the Hero's Journey almost perfectly. It's xianxia in full while maintaining narrative cohesion (whereas plenty of wuxia and xianxia stories have a bad habit of continuing long after they start getting repetit— ohh.....)

Also, this is the part of the series that is essentially the cartoonier version of Yu Yu Hakusho. It's the point where Dragon Ball came into its own and started leaving its purely parodic gag roots behind.

In other words, Dragon Ball could have started with the 22nd tenkaichi budokai and ended with Son Goku's death on Namek and it would have been just as much of a fulfilling story. Everything else is essentially extra to Son's story arc, though that doesn't mean everything else is necessarily bad or useless— several story arcs were played out back in the original Dragon Ball quest/Pilaf arc and Gohan's story arc (my favorite in the series) wouldn't get started until most of Goku's story arc had already been done.

This represents what I think might be one of the biggest problems in Dragon Ball— Son Goku's story arc is essentially over. It's been over for decades. He was part of more stories, but Dragon Ball is no longer his story. Passing the torch to Gohan after Cell would have been the strongest move for the series. But Toriyama's decision against it and his decision to keep Goku as the lead brought us to where we are now. And the entire franchise is suffering because of it. We've had two attempted canon continuations that fell into the exact same problems, even if the second felt more faithful to the original work at times.

Perhaps in parallel of how, despite common belief, Journey to the West isn't about Sun Wukong.


ADD moment: There are several tests you can play to check the tensile strength of any story. For this particular rant, ask yourself this question: if you can take away a character, does their absence vitally affect the story and development of other characters? If you could reasonably rewrite a plot with this character appearing at all and giving other characters a better reason to appear, why not do so? For most of Dragon Ball after Cell, Goku has been largely peripheral despite dominating the screen. It was at its most atrocious in the Future Trunks arc, where you literally could have taken Goku out of the arc entirely (save as Goku Black) and the entire thing wouldn't have changed. Goku wasn't at all needed for any part of it past the first fight with Zamasu. Everything he did that actually mattered could have been done by someone else, and it would have made for a much stronger, much tighter arc for Future Trunks.



Of course, there was a third canon continuation of Dragon Ball, one which usually draws a lot of praise. That was Dragon Ball Online. In this case, almost everyone from DB is long since dead, little more than legends of an earlier time. There's no chance for Goku to hijack the story; it's entirely up to a new generation. Here is where new material for Dragon Ball can work. But alas, we're too far gone.

Ironically, Dragon Ball could have learned something from Naruto in this case— though it's a flawed show, the best thing about Boruto is that it's following a new generation's journey without wimping out and falling back on the more well-known and established characters from the first series. Dragon Ball could have pioneered that (though to be fair, I understand Toriyama's reluctance to keep it going long after he had tired of it; Tintin's creator expressed the same angst).

So I suppose that's the most annoying thing to come out of nü Dragon Ball— despite everything that has been written about Dragon Ball G(oku) T(ime) and having two decades to learn from its failure, Toei and Toriyama essentially made the exact same mistakes in HD.



I know I keep saying "But I'm arguing about literary theories in a cartoon series for 3-7 year-old Japanese boys," but if we're talking about actual functional problems with the franchise as a whole and why modern Dragon Ball can't seem to come anywhere close to the old stuff sans fanservicey homages, narrative issues always come first. At this point, we're essentially talking about "Zombie Ball Z" and are a part of a "Dead Goku Society" analyzing at which point Dragon Ball "died". I don't want to say it died when Goku returned from his battle with Freeza— arguably the most well-renowned part of the series (the Gohan vs. Cell fight) was still ahead of it. I think the problem is that there's not much of a point to it anymore.

Since Goku's arc is over but we still follow him around with no new arcs being created for him (the GoD arc doesn't seem to be going anywhere and we could assume as much thanks to Super taking place before the EoZ), Dragon Ball is essentially no different from American comic serials with the fatal flaw that other characters don't have their own series so the entire thing is being done through focus on Goku.

In which case, Dragon Ball Heroes might as well be the only continuation. It may be utterly stupid and without any arc whatsoever, but at least it's upfront about it.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Zephyr » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:26 pm

Yuli Ban wrote:In other words, Dragon Ball could have started with the 22nd tenkaichi budokai and ended with Son Goku's death on Namek and it would have been just as much of a fulfilling story. Everything else is essentially extra to Son's story arc, though that doesn't mean everything else is necessarily bad or useless— several story arcs were played out back in the original Dragon Ball quest/Pilaf arc and Gohan's story arc (my favorite in the series) wouldn't get started until most of Goku's story arc had already been done.
While I agree that 22nd TB through Freeza is the most solid chunk of Dragon Ball as a purely action story, I don't think what comes before or after it is "extra" or in any way unnecessary. Son Goku's story is largely one about the path he walks as a martial artist. He begins as a student, and he ends as a teacher. In the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai arc we are told the importance of there always being a "bigger fish" out there; this is what motivates the Jackie Chun shtick in the first place. In the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc, we begin to see what happens when Goku gets to the top, and the picture becomes ever clearer in every arc following it. The higher Goku gets in the pecking order, the more bored he is going to get, and the more he will be willing to endanger others for the sake of testing and pushing his limits. His handling of Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza, and the Artificial Humans all make this clear. The Cell arc shows Goku, ostensibly, finding an outlet for his reckless boredom, by fighting in the afterlife. However, Toriyama continued the story, and brought Goku back. The afterlife was not as satisfactory an outlet as was hoped, and his handling of Vegeta this time around highlights that. Goku's "poisonous" drive doesn't find a true "antidote" until he goes from student to master, and gains the ultimate pupil to test his limits: the final villain, reincarnated as a good person.

Moreover, I think the Buu arc's existence is hardly superfluous. Dragon Ball begins as a blend of comedy and action, and with the Buu arc it ends in the same way. The middle portion, between Tenshinhan and Cell, form almost a "bell curve" of seriousness and drama, within the larger comedic story that, in the big picture, is perfectly consistent and at home with Toriyama's general output and style. The comedic beginnings were also crucial: it's clear that Toriyama had to ease into a more serious story. If he were to try and write a more serious story, the stretch between Tenshinhan and Freeza is certainly not what would have been published. The drama grew organically out of the gag world.

What story is actually even told, in its entirety, between Tenshinhan and Freeza? Without the buildup from Goku's first Ozaru transformations, I feel that the story about his Saiyan heritage is incomplete. Perhaps the story of Goku and Piccolo's rivalry? They begin as sworn enemies, and end as eager comrades in arms? That is indeed a damn compelling story, but I don't think it's anywhere as fulfilling as the whole package that we actually got.
Yuli Ban wrote:For most of Dragon Ball after Cell, Goku has been largely peripheral despite dominating the screen. It was at its most atrocious in the Future Trunks arc, where you literally could have taken Goku out of the arc entirely (save as Goku Black) and the entire thing wouldn't have changed. Goku wasn't at all needed for any part of it past the first fight with Goku Black proving that there was a threat. Everything he did that actually mattered could have been done by someone else, and it would have made for a much stronger, much tighter arc for Future Trunks.
Goku is the one who befriended Zeno after the tournament with Champa, Goku is the one called on by Zeno because of this, and Goku is the one given the button to summon Zeno. If Goku was taken out of the Future Trunks arc, then Zeno would never have shown up and destroyed all of Trunks' timeline's universes, which was important to demonstrate Zeno's capriciousness, and also to provide the story's bittersweet conclusion. Goku then brings this second Zeno to his timeline, and has the two of them become friends. The manga version also uses the arc's events to showcase Goku's and Vegeta's progress as pupils of Whis and Beerus. Super in general, in the big picture, feels more like a story about Goku and Vegeta growing under their tutelage, than anything else.

There's also the Tournament of Power, which only happens because Goku has such easy access to Zeno, via the button. The manga even makes it seem like the two Zeno were going to destroy the universes anyway; that, taken with the fact that Universe 7 was around long enough for Trunks to reach adulthood in the future timeline, suggests that the presence of two Zeno is what would have prompted the desire for erasure in the first place.

To take Goku out, and have the same story, you'd need somebody careless enough to interact with Zeno, and charming enough to not directly incur his wrath. Buu could fit the former bill, but not the latter.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by zarmack » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:10 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
zarmack wrote:

Freeza is an objectively better character with a better narrative connected to him than 98% of the cast and is easily the best villain in the franchise. The only 4 characters undeniably better written/characterized than him are Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks and Bulma (Piccolo and Gohan are debatable, but no one else comes close.)
You keep using that word “objectively” as if that gives your argument greater weight. What makes Freeza an objectively better character? He’s got some cool designs, and he’s functional in his role as Space Hitler, and has some great performances by his Japanese actor and Chris Ayres but there’s nothing especially great about him.
You just answered your own question.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by TheMikado » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:52 pm

zarmack wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:
zarmack wrote:

Freeza is an objectively better character with a better narrative connected to him than 98% of the cast and is easily the best villain in the franchise. The only 4 characters undeniably better written/characterized than him are Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks and Bulma (Piccolo and Gohan are debatable, but no one else comes close.)
You keep using that word “objectively” as if that gives your argument greater weight. What makes Freeza an objectively better character? He’s got some cool designs, and he’s functional in his role as Space Hitler, and has some great performances by his Japanese actor and Chris Ayres but there’s nothing especially great about him.
You just answered your own question.
That's not the answer and I had the same criticisms. Frieza has long over stayed his welcome for his purpose. He popularized the "Final Form" at a time shape shifting and transformations were rare in DB. In fact the thread mostly started with Vegeta in the saiyan, since then every single major villian in the franchise had multiple forms. So when they finally do bring him back, what do they do? Give him a new form, yuck.

Further he couldn't be closer to generic villian if he tried. Whats his motivation? To rule the universe? Be "evil"? At least with both Cell and Buu they in universe recognize they have no purpose other that destruction. Even Vegeta had goals, get the dragonballs, wish for immortality, over throw Frieza or the past insults to him and his race.

Every single time Frieza gets revived he makes a beeline for Goku and crew. Its like his only purpose in universe is to antagonize them and act as a foil for the heroes ala Cobra Commander. Frieza is the epitome of a generic one note villians because we have yet to see any real plans, motivations, or objectives that dont surround Goku. And what the hell ever happen to his objectives of collecting the DBs in the first place???? We see it brought up in the Broly movie in the most absolute BS objective. If thats the extent of Freeza's desires with the ability to wish for anything than Frieza himself is in the running for the lamest thing to come out of modern DB.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:08 pm

TheMikado wrote:
That's not the answer and I had the same criticisms. Frieza has long over stayed his welcome for his purpose.

Thank you. Those things don’t make Freeza objectively better than other villains. Quite frankly Cell and Buu are far more interesting and once we factor in DB villains he ranks below Tao Pei Pei, Tenshinhan (if he counts) Piccolo Daimou and Piccolo JR. He’s fine but he’s just fine


Frankly I think the only reason Freeza is rated so highly is because his place in the mythos (having destroyed planet Vegeta) and his actions being what triggered Goku to turn Super Saiyan i.e one of the more iconic moments in the franchise. As his own character he’s functional at best.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by zarmack » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:54 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
That's not the answer and I had the same criticisms. Frieza has long over stayed his welcome for his purpose.

Thank you. Those things don’t make Freeza objectively better than other villains. Quite frankly Cell and Buu are far more interesting and once we factor in DB villains he ranks below Tao Pei Pei, Tenshinhan (if he counts) Piccolo Daimou and Piccolo JR. He’s fine but he’s just fine


Frankly I think the only reason Freeza is rated so highly is because his place in the mythos (having destroyed planet Vegeta) and his actions being what triggered Goku to turn Super Saiyan i.e one of the more iconic moments in the franchise. As his own character he’s functional at best.
Buu is as one-dimensional as you can get (especially once he starts absorbing people and more so as Kid Buu) and nearly everything that makes Cell interesting comes from Freeza. Neither King Piccolo, Tien nor Tao Pei Pei have don't anything better as villains (nor is their place in the story any more interesting) than Freeza.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by zarmack » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:07 pm

TheMikado wrote:
zarmack wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:
You keep using that word “objectively” as if that gives your argument greater weight. What makes Freeza an objectively better character? He’s got some cool designs, and he’s functional in his role as Space Hitler, and has some great performances by his Japanese actor and Chris Ayres but there’s nothing especially great about him.
You just answered your own question.
That's not the answer and I had the same criticisms. Frieza has long over stayed his welcome for his purpose. He popularized the "Final Form" at a time shape shifting and transformations were rare in DB. In fact the thread mostly started with Vegeta in the saiyan, since then every single major villian in the franchise had multiple forms. So when they finally do bring him back, what do they do? Give him a new form, yuck.

Further he couldn't be closer to generic villian if he tried. Whats his motivation? To rule the universe? Be "evil"? At least with both Cell and Buu they in universe recognize they have no purpose other that destruction. Even Vegeta had goals, get the dragonballs, wish for immortality, over throw Frieza or the past insults to him and his race.

Every single time Frieza gets revived he makes a beeline for Goku and crew. Its like his only purpose in universe is to antagonize them and act as a foil for the heroes ala Cobra Commander. Frieza is the epitome of a generic one note villians because we have yet to see any real plans, motivations, or objectives that dont surround Goku. And what the hell ever happen to his objectives of collecting the DBs in the first place???? We see it brought up in the Broly movie in the most absolute BS objective. If thats the extent of Freeza's desires with the ability to wish for anything than Frieza himself is in the running for the lamest thing to come out of modern DB.
And what does any other main villain (besides Black/Zamasu, Saiyan arc Vegeta and arguably Baby) have that makes them any better than Freeza? Both Cell and Buu are more generic than he is (by your own admission), and most of your complaints are more accurately applied to King Piccolo, Pilaf and most of the movie villains.

Also, Freeza's goals before and since Super don't revolve around Goku (where did you get that from?). His main goal in the Namek arc was to wish for immortality and maintain his dominance over U7 forever. Since the ToP arc, his new goal is to overthrow Beerus, Zeno and the rest of the divine order and take over all of reality. Neither of which are centered around Goku, so you just made that BS assumption up. The only times he was ever obsessed with Goku was as Mecha Freeza and in RoF (both were for revenge).

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Kataphrut » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:50 pm

The thing about Freeza these days is that much like Bardock and Gohan, he's at his best when Toriyama isn't the one writing him. You look at Freeza in the Universe Survival arc where he has development, depth, interesting dynamics with other characters, and it's the best he's been since Namek, possibly better. Compare that to Resurrection F and (by all accounts) the Broly movie, where he might as well be Pilaf. Or Commander Red in Broly's case.

Even the Resurrection F arc for all its faults at least made him more threatening than the movie did. He has a lot going for him as a character and I can understand why they want to keep him around, but if they can't give him anything to do that capitalises on his potential, having him around is going to be a waste.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by zarmack » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:26 pm

Kataphrut wrote:The thing about Freeza these days is that much like Bardock and Gohan, he's at his best when Toriyama isn't the one writing him.
This could be said for just about everyone in modern DB to be honest.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Kataphrut » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:29 am

zarmack wrote:
Kataphrut wrote:The thing about Freeza these days is that much like Bardock and Gohan, he's at his best when Toriyama isn't the one writing him.
This could be said for just about everyone in modern DB to be honest.
Hmm...I dunno. One thing Resurrection F the movie doesn't get enough credit for is the banter between characters. It was witty and on-point, Toriyama can still do that better than Toei writers, who occasionally veer into melodrama and nude-nudge, wink-wink metahumour. Also Vegeta was done better in the movies. Universe Survival arc Vegeta was a trashfire.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:37 am

Thank you. Those things don’t make Freeza objectively better than other villains. Quite frankly Cell and Buu are far more interesting and once we factor in DB villains he ranks below Tao Pei Pei, Tenshinhan (if he counts) Piccolo Daimou and Piccolo JR. He’s fine but he’s just fine


Frankly I think the only reason Freeza is rated so highly is because his place in the mythos (having destroyed planet Vegeta) and his actions being what triggered Goku to turn Super Saiyan i.e one of the more iconic moments in the franchise. As his own character he’s functional at best.
So is depth limited to some wound from a character's past? Freeza's motive is to rule. He's a power luster who wants to rule everything. He's an entitled monster who sees himself as a gentleman. Not the deepest motivation, but it doesn't feel flat due to Toriyama's execution and Nakao/Ayres' performances. He feels flesh and blood. His backstory linked to the destruction of Goku's homeworld helped but it isn't the reason he's well regarded as a villain. It's all in the execution and I've seen plenty of supposedly deep villains fall flat, whereas villains with "stock" motivations are classics.

That said, keeping him coming back is ridiculous. There's nowhere interesting to go with him that we haven't seen from DB before.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Grimlock » Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:59 pm

Person: "Dude, a freaking single Saiyan can keep up with a fusion!11!1! Cumber is pure shit, this anime/game/manga is trash!11!1!11!! Thank god this stupidity is not cannon1!1!!! not have sense!11!!1! dont put too much thought on it!!11!11!"

The same person: "oh my god!1!1! Broly vs Gogeta111!1! amazing!1!111!! this is perfect1!1!1!! power scaling makes all sense!11!11!!! Broly is a beast, he fights Gogeta, isn't he wonderful??11!!??!!1!!????!! This is cannon at its finest!11!!1!"

For some weird and unexpected reason, I haven't come across this too much, but it's still there. Talk nonsense about games but praises when the series/Toriyama comes up with the same thing... It is one of the lamest thing these days and one of the worst type a person can be.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Shaddy » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:30 am

I have seen literally nobody say these things.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Forte224 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:47 am

Shaddy wrote:I have seen literally nobody say these things.
Agreed. And even if some people do say that about Cumber keeping up with a fusion (which is probably a vocal minority, because who cares enough to complain about that, honestly?), why would someone automatically assume those exact same people are the ones praising Gogeta vs Broli?

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by PFM18 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:40 pm

Grimlock wrote:Person: "Dude, a freaking single Saiyan can keep up with a fusion!11!1! Cumber is pure shit, this anime/game/manga is trash!11!1!11!! Thank god this stupidity is not cannon1!1!!! not have sense!11!!1! dont put too much thought on it!!11!11!"

The same person: "oh my god!1!1! Broly vs Gogeta111!1! amazing!1!111!! this is perfect1!1!1!! power scaling makes all sense!11!11!!! Broly is a beast, he fights Gogeta, isn't he wonderful??11!!??!!1!!????!! This is cannon at its finest!11!!1!"

For some weird and unexpected reason, I haven't come across this too much, but it's still there. Talk nonsense about games but praises when the series/Toriyama comes up with the same thing... It is one of the lamest thing these days and one of the worst type a person can be.
I don't see any issue with liking new Broly and disliking Cumber especially when we have absolutely nothing to go on about his backstory or how he is this strong. He literally is just "Evil Saiyan" and nothing more. In Saiyan society the social structure is based on your innate power and Broly is simply the epitome of this idea of Saiyans having variations in power at birth.

Also, people associate Cumber with him keeping up with one fusion/being even and then getting dominated by another fusion that by all accounts should be at most the same strength as the previous fusion with no explanation whatsoever. People don't associate Cumber with that kind of BS. Gogeta is super strong and consistently portrayed that way, and Gogeta is super strong and consistently portrayed that way.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:08 pm

Cumber is the worst and lamest thing to come out of modern DB since Kale. He might actually be worse. I can see why people would be upset with him fighting on par with a fusion. We don't know jackshit about this character. He's just a recolored, edgier Broly, known as the "evillllll saiyan." wtf is that? I find his existence offensive.

Gogeta vs Broly doesn't bother me because we, more or less, understand what Broly is supposed to be, and his whole schtick is that he continues to grow in power as he fights. I haven't read too many spoilers, but I assume he begins his fight with Goku and Vegeta without the power he has by the end of the film.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

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