How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by zarmack » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:19 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote: snip
I think you are selling his character too short. In the middle of Goku's fight in the Cell Games, Vegeta flat out stated that Goku and Perfect Cell were stronger than him, yet was the 1st person to challenge Super Perfect Cell (and didn't seem to have any belief that he was stronger than Cell). He also flat-out told Krillin that the Giynu Force was stronger than he was when he heard that they were coming to Namek, yet still made plans to fight them instead to trying to leave the planet. And outside of Movie 8 (and even there he got over his fear), none of the other 13 Z movies has him punk out against the main villain despite their obviously superior power. And if Vegeta wasn't interested in challenging himself throughout Z, why did he continue to train after the Cell Games despite Goku being thought to have died for good and Vegeta becoming the strongest character alive before Buu is resurrected?

And I don't recall Nappa having a mental breakdown or bitching out when he heard that Goku had a higher power level than he does ("what, over 8000? lol). Instead he rushed off to fight Goku despite the clear knowledge through their scouters that Goku is stronger than him.

And then there's 90s Bardock, who was frequently facing off against foes stronger than himself and was never necessarily portrayed as being exceptional among the Saiyans for doing so in the film.

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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:59 pm

Of course he's not going to flee. He's not about to leave the DB's when he's so close to getting his wish.

Vegeta still has a desire to get stronger even if he's not going to fight anyone.

Nappa didn't have a breakdown, but he clearly lost his cool against Goku. His veins were popping out all over his head. Vegeta calls him out on that. When he hears Goku has a huge battle power, his reaction was denial. That's constantly been shown to be the case. They don't trust the readings of their scouters when they get bad news.

Bardock is different. He's an antihero and the protagonist of the movie.
To me, the original series felt incomplete and that I wish it had been extended more, and I'm happy that it has now, and not necessarily that it should literally never end.
How!? It lasted a decade. There are several hundred chapters and episodes for you to enjoy. What was left to complete?
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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by Forte224 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:38 pm

To me, the original series felt incomplete and that I wish it had been extended more, and I'm happy that it has now, and not necessarily that it should literally never end.
How!? It lasted a decade. There are several hundred chapters and episodes for you to enjoy. What was left to complete?
Vegeta like totally needed a new form man, his character development just wasn't complete without it. Screw all that "You're number 1 Kakarot" nonsense we needed him to want to surpass Goku again.

And, uh, we needed to see Futute Trunks again, because his character arc definitely wasn't completed by the end of the Cell arc. Nah he needed a new form too to really round out that development.

Oh let's not forget we needed Gohan to lose his bang from his "Ultimate Form" or whatever so he could get it back again. Solid development there. I always felt that was missing from Z.

[/sarcasm]

NOTHING was missing from the original 42 volumes. By the last chapter, every important character had some kind of ending to their character arc. Kuririn, Roshi, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Future Trunks, etc. all had stories to tell and those stories were told. Vegeta was the last to have it, finally admitting how great Goku was, telling us what we've known all along. Great way to wrap up Vegeta's character while simultaneously reminding us why we love Goku so much.

The only other thing to do is give these existing characters even MOAR awesome moments but that's not meaningful development. That's just people going "Ooooo look my favorite character did a thing!!! SS3 Vegeta when?!"

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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by Tavarano » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:46 pm

zarmack wrote:
Tavarano wrote:
zarmack wrote:
It was flat out stated by King Kai and Vegeta in the Namek arc that the whole full-blooded race is like that. Claiming that its just a Goku thing is clearly as false as claiming that "rage-boost" are just a Gohan thing.
What did they say exactly as I don't remember? There isn't any other saiyan who only cares about getting stronger and seeks strong opponents for sport other than Goku.
Getting stronger and seeking out strong opponents (for whatever motive) is something they all naturally do. That's why Vegeta let Cell reach his perfect form and why he (along with Goku) insisted on not killing Dr. Gero before he unleashes the androids.
I strongly disagree, motivation does matter, without it, they wouldn't be doing it, In this case getting stronger is a motive in itself inherent only to Goku, due to which he lets androids be created but Vegeta and Tenshinhan do this because of their pride as warriors. Raditz and Nappa didn't have such unique personalities and acted like regular brutes. Goku's uniqueness was specifically highlighted during #1 speech.
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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:33 pm

The desire to get stronger isn't unique to Goku. Not sure where you get that idea. Vegeta does desire to become stronger. The fundamental difference between he and Goku is Vegeta for years wanted to get stronger so he could assert his superiority over people. Goku wanted to get stronger for its own sake.
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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by zarmack » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:03 pm

ABED wrote:Of course he's not going to flee. He's not about to leave the DB's when he's so close to getting his wish.

Vegeta still has a desire to get stronger even if he's not going to fight anyone.

Nappa didn't have a breakdown, but he clearly lost his cool against Goku. His veins were popping out all over his head. Vegeta calls him out on that. When he hears Goku has a huge battle power, his reaction was denial. That's constantly been shown to be the case. They don't trust the readings of their scouters when they get bad news.

Bardock is different. He's an antihero and the protagonist of the movie.
To me, the original series felt incomplete and that I wish it had been extended more, and I'm happy that it has now, and not necessarily that it should literally never end.
How!? It lasted a decade. There are several hundred chapters and episodes for you to enjoy. What was left to complete?
What's the point of training and getting stronger if you aren't gonna fight anymore? That makes no sense, Gohan stopped training after the Cell Games because he retired from fighting.

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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by zarmack » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:16 pm

Forte224 wrote:
To me, the original series felt incomplete and that I wish it had been extended more, and I'm happy that it has now, and not necessarily that it should literally never end.
How!? It lasted a decade. There are several hundred chapters and episodes for you to enjoy. What was left to complete?
Vegeta like totally needed a new form man, his character development just wasn't complete without it. Screw all that "You're number 1 Kakarot" nonsense we needed him to want to surpass Goku again.

And, uh, we needed to see Futute Trunks again, because his character arc definitely wasn't completed by the end of the Cell arc. Nah he needed a new form too to really round out that development.

Oh let's not forget we needed Gohan to lose his bang from his "Ultimate Form" or whatever so he could get it back again. Solid development there. I always felt that was missing from Z.

[/sarcasm]

NOTHING was missing from the original 42 volumes. By the last chapter, every important character had some kind of ending to their character arc. Kuririn, Roshi, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Future Trunks, etc. all had stories to tell and those stories were told. Vegeta was the last to have it, finally admitting how great Goku was, telling us what we've known all along. Great way to wrap up Vegeta's character while simultaneously reminding us why we love Goku so much.

The only other thing to do is give these existing characters even MOAR awesome moments but that's not meaningful development. That's just people going "Ooooo look my favorite character did a thing!!! SS3 Vegeta when?!"
You can't reduce people and characters to a single character arc. That's a prime example of amateurish, shallow, and borderline autistic writing. People in real life (and the most well-written characters in any type of fiction) tend to have multiple different personality traits, interests, relationships and goals going on simultaneously, with some never getting resolved, others being gained after others were concluded, etc (Vegeta for example wasn't introduced with the desire to surpass Goku. That only started after the Namek saga.)

The relative lack of this in the DB franchise (compared to many other fiction, anime or not) is a major reason why DB's characters are dismissed (even by many fans) as either wasted potential or one-dimensional flat characters. Saying things like "his character arc is over, we don't need to see him again" is reflective of one-dimensional thinking.

Also, Toriyama making Vegeta want to be better than Goku again was something he did long before any plans for a DB revival started. He did this with the new, Kanzenban ending to the original manga in 2004.

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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by Forte224 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:19 am

zarmack wrote:
Forte224 wrote:
How!? It lasted a decade. There are several hundred chapters and episodes for you to enjoy. What was left to complete?
Vegeta like totally needed a new form man, his character development just wasn't complete without it. Screw all that "You're number 1 Kakarot" nonsense we needed him to want to surpass Goku again.

And, uh, we needed to see Futute Trunks again, because his character arc definitely wasn't completed by the end of the Cell arc. Nah he needed a new form too to really round out that development.

Oh let's not forget we needed Gohan to lose his bang from his "Ultimate Form" or whatever so he could get it back again. Solid development there. I always felt that was missing from Z.

[/sarcasm]

NOTHING was missing from the original 42 volumes. By the last chapter, every important character had some kind of ending to their character arc. Kuririn, Roshi, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Future Trunks, etc. all had stories to tell and those stories were told. Vegeta was the last to have it, finally admitting how great Goku was, telling us what we've known all along. Great way to wrap up Vegeta's character while simultaneously reminding us why we love Goku so much.

The only other thing to do is give these existing characters even MOAR awesome moments but that's not meaningful development. That's just people going "Ooooo look my favorite character did a thing!!! SS3 Vegeta when?!"
You can't reduce people and characters to a single character arc. That's a prime example of amateurish, shallow, and borderline autistic writing. People in real life (and the most well-written characters in any type of fiction) tend to have multiple different personality traits, interests, relationships and goals going on simultaneously, with some never getting resolved, others being gained after others were concluded, etc (Vegeta for example wasn't introduced with the desire to surpass Goku. That only started after the Namek saga.)

The relative lack of this in the DB franchise (compared to many other fiction, anime or not) is a major reason why DB's characters are dismissed (even by many fans) as either wasted potential or one-dimensional flat characters. Saying things like "his character arc is over, we don't need to see him again" is reflective of one-dimensional thinking.

Also, Toriyama making Vegeta want to be better than Goku again was something he did long before any plans for a DB revival started. He did this with the new, Kanzenban ending to the original manga in 2004.
Sure you can reduce them to one character arc. It's a stupid show about fighting people. We don't need to constantly bring these characters that aren't that deep back up so they can continue to do things that aren't deep, except this time it's less compelling. And that's because there's nothing left interesting to do with them besides "Oh COOL my fav character got a new form, bruh!!!!" Your Vegeta example doesn't make sense. What was his character arc before Namek? He didn't really have one, in his mind he was on top. He just wanted immortality so he could fight endlessly. Then, his power level was bested and therefore he was embarrassed by a low class Saiyan soldier and his weakling friends. And they even spared his life. All this started his character arc and ate away at him throughout the rest of the series until he fought Goku again in the Boo arc.

"The relative lack of this in the DB franchise" continues that trend with Super. In fact, it's even worse. Super does NOTHING to move these characters forward. They learn nothing, they don't change at all. All they do is "train in secret" and get stronger so Toei can please the fanboys. And do you know why? It's because they can't do anything new with them. They're not that deep, they don't NEED another character arc. Hell, they don't even HAVE another character arc. They're just doing the same crap they did in the Boo arc or before. And I could care less what "many fans" think. "Many fans" love the OG FUNi dub over anything else. "Many fans" complain Vegeta never went SS3. "Many fans" wanted Broli back...again. "Many fans" treat Faulconer like it's the default track in Dragon Ball Z, and treat Dragon Ball Z like it's the only thing in the franchise that matters.

Oh, and where exactly did I exclude the Kanzenban from my post? I think the Kanzenban ending is stupid for that very reason, it walks all over what Vegeta learned and came to accept at the end of the Boo arc. Toriyama pulled a George Lucas. Everything was fine as it was.

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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by zarmack » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:36 am

Forte224 wrote:
zarmack wrote:
Forte224 wrote: Vegeta like totally needed a new form man, his character development just wasn't complete without it. Screw all that "You're number 1 Kakarot" nonsense we needed him to want to surpass Goku again.

And, uh, we needed to see Futute Trunks again, because his character arc definitely wasn't completed by the end of the Cell arc. Nah he needed a new form too to really round out that development.

Oh let's not forget we needed Gohan to lose his bang from his "Ultimate Form" or whatever so he could get it back again. Solid development there. I always felt that was missing from Z.

[/sarcasm]

NOTHING was missing from the original 42 volumes. By the last chapter, every important character had some kind of ending to their character arc. Kuririn, Roshi, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Future Trunks, etc. all had stories to tell and those stories were told. Vegeta was the last to have it, finally admitting how great Goku was, telling us what we've known all along. Great way to wrap up Vegeta's character while simultaneously reminding us why we love Goku so much.

The only other thing to do is give these existing characters even MOAR awesome moments but that's not meaningful development. That's just people going "Ooooo look my favorite character did a thing!!! SS3 Vegeta when?!"
You can't reduce people and characters to a single character arc. That's a prime example of amateurish, shallow, and borderline autistic writing. People in real life (and the most well-written characters in any type of fiction) tend to have multiple different personality traits, interests, relationships and goals going on simultaneously, with some never getting resolved, others being gained after others were concluded, etc (Vegeta for example wasn't introduced with the desire to surpass Goku. That only started after the Namek saga.)

The relative lack of this in the DB franchise (compared to many other fiction, anime or not) is a major reason why DB's characters are dismissed (even by many fans) as either wasted potential or one-dimensional flat characters. Saying things like "his character arc is over, we don't need to see him again" is reflective of one-dimensional thinking.

Also, Toriyama making Vegeta want to be better than Goku again was something he did long before any plans for a DB revival started. He did this with the new, Kanzenban ending to the original manga in 2004.
Sure you can reduce them to one character arc. It's a stupid show about fighting people. We don't need to constantly bring these characters that aren't that deep back up so they can continue to do things that aren't deep, except this time it's less compelling. And that's because there's nothing left interesting to do with them besides "Oh COOL my fav character got a new form, bruh!!!!" Your Vegeta example doesn't make sense. What was his character arc before Namek? He didn't really have one, in his mind he was on top. He just wanted immortality so he could fight endlessly. Then, his power level was bested and therefore he was embarrassed by a low class Saiyan soldier and his weakling friends. And they even spared his life. All this started his character arc and ate away at him throughout the rest of the series until he fought Goku again in the Boo arc.

"The relative lack of this in the DB franchise" continues that trend with Super. In fact, it's even worse. Super does NOTHING to move these characters forward. They learn nothing, they don't change at all. All they do is "train in secret" and get stronger so Toei can please the fanboys. And do you know why? It's because they can't do anything new with them. They're not that deep, they don't NEED another character arc. Hell, they don't even HAVE another character arc. They're just doing the same crap they did in the Boo arc or before. And I could care less what "many fans" think. "Many fans" love the OG FUNi dub over anything else. "Many fans" complain Vegeta never went SS3. "Many fans" wanted Broli back...again. "Many fans" treat Faulconer like it's the default track in Dragon Ball Z, and treat Dragon Ball Z like it's the only thing in the franchise that matters.

Oh, and where exactly did I exclude the Kanzenban from my post? I think the Kanzenban ending is stupid for that very reason, it walks all over what Vegeta learned and came to accept at the end of the Boo arc. Toriyama pulled a George Lucas. Everything was fine as it was.
Your post just proves my point.

1. Instead of doing what any above-average writer would do and actually make them deeper by giving them more traits and arcs, you would seem to just leave them flat and wasted. That's the same attitude that's guiding modern DB smh. And no, assuming that "there's nothing left interesting to do with them" (when in reality, there's a lot of unexplored/blank territory with nearly the entire cast) is exactly the BS, small-minded attitude that leads to bad character writing and shallowness.

2. "Your Vegeta example doesn't make sense. What was his character arc before Namek? He didn't really have one, in his mind he was on top. He just wanted immortality so he could fight endlessly. Then, his power level was bested and therefore he was embarrassed by a low class Saiyan soldier and his weakling friends. And they even spared his life."

You just debunked yourself. You tried to argue that Vegeta didn't have a character arc before Namek, only to literally describe what it was, completely devaluing your own argument in the process.

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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by Forte224 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:50 am

These characters don't NEED to be deeper. They're fine. It's a simple show, and that's ok. I know that's hard to hear, but take a deep breath and accept it. Dragon Ball will never, ever break that formula because it was never supposed to. Other shows do that, Dragon Ball doesn't. And there's nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is trying to turn Dragon Ball into a show that no longer resembles itself.

What is his ARC? He doesn't have one before what I mentioned. His arc is set up for the whole series a couple episodes after we see him fight Goku and continues until the end of Boo. Before that he's just a bad guy that wants to be immortal so he can be more bad and fight and stuff. That isn't an arc. Do you know what an arc is?

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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by zarmack » Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:27 am

Forte224 wrote:These characters don't NEED to be deeper. They're fine. It's a simple show, and that's ok. I know that's hard to hear, but take a deep breath and accept it. Dragon Ball will never, ever break that formula because it was never supposed to. Other shows do that, Dragon Ball doesn't. And there's nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is trying to turn Dragon Ball into a show that no longer resembles itself.

What is his ARC? He doesn't have one before what I mentioned. His arc is set up for the whole series a couple episodes after we see him fight Goku and continues until the end of Boo. Before that he's just a bad guy that wants to be immortal so he can be more bad and fight and stuff. That isn't an arc. Do you know what an arc is?
So in your own words, you don't want Dragonball to be better. You think DB(Z) was as good as it possibly could be (despite numerous critics and even fans of the franchise since day one pointing out otherwise). With that close-minded view, you shouldn't be complaining about Modern Dragonball smh.

And again, you contradicted yourself. Wanting to steal the DBs so he could become an immortal warrior is an arc, because it gives him a clear motive for what drives his actions in the Saiyan arc. It is you who seems to not know what an arc is based on your response.

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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by Forte224 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:35 am

Wanting something hardly qualifies as an arc. Especially since the only reason he wants said thing is so that he can keep doing what he's doing. There's no growth, no experience, no nothing. It's just a motive to go and continue being the same bad guy he already is. And I NEVER said I don't want Dragon Ball to be better. Deeper=/=better. Dragon Ball is not supposed to be super deep. It's supposed to be simple. Making it deeper makes it worse because it takes away from the feel of the show, something I do not want.

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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by zarmack » Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:20 am

Forte224 wrote:Wanting something hardly qualifies as an arc. Especially since the only reason he wants said thing is so that he can keep doing what he's doing. There's no growth, no experience, no nothing. It's just a motive to go and continue being the same bad guy he already is. And I NEVER said I don't want Dragon Ball to be better. Deeper=/=better. Dragon Ball is not supposed to be super deep. It's supposed to be simple. Making it deeper makes it worse because it takes away from the feel of the show, something I do not want.
1. A character having a goal he is working towards literally is an arc, since it details their role in the storyline.

2. Changing from one thing to another is not character development, it is the process of a character becoming more 3-dimensional over time by revealing and connecting more traits and aspects of them. A character going for an asshole to a nice guy for example isn't really "growth" of any kind, because they aren't actually becoming less shallow since you are just replacing one character trait with another.

3. "Dragon Ball is not supposed to be super deep". That's no different from the "Dragonball isn't suppose to have good writing" or the "its just a kids show" defense many fans use to deflect criticism. And your last argument is an appeal to tradition (aka change is bad) fallacy. If anything, changing the "feel" of the show is actually what this franchise needs since the old formula no longer works (as DBS has shown).

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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by Forte224 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:28 am

1. I mean, ok, fair enough. But it's such a tiny little goal that did nothing but set him up to be the bad guy that it's hardly worth considering. It's a means to an end that ended up leading to his arc that lasted all the way to Boo.

2. Not sure of your point here.

3. It is different. Dragon Ball done well is a simple story with good writing that appeals to all ages while being marketed towards kids. You're saying you want it to go deeper than that, becoming something it's not. I don't want that. It doesn't NEED a change in feel because it didn't NEED to come back at all. It was a completed story. Capisce?

I'm not continuing this further. We're just going in circles.

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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by ABED » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:54 am

What's the point of training and getting stronger if you aren't gonna fight anymore? That makes no sense, Gohan stopped training after the Cell Games because he retired from fighting.
To stay in shape. Genuine enjoyment.
Instead of doing what any above-average writer would do and actually make them deeper by giving them more traits and arcs, you would seem to just leave them flat and wasted. That's the same attitude that's guiding modern DB smh. And no, assuming that "there's nothing left interesting to do with them" (when in reality, there's a lot of unexplored/blank territory with nearly the entire cast) is exactly the BS, small-minded attitude that leads to bad character writing and shallowness.
What do you consider depth?
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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by Shineman » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:27 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:snip
God damn, now that's an interesting analysis of the Saiyans (which I guess it's funny how Turles is more cunning than a fighter). How would Broly, from the original films, fit into the concept of your average Saiyan?
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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by TheMikado » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:02 pm

Echoing GT sentiment.

Dragonball starts with Goku and the Dragonballs, ends with Goku and the Dragonballs. Permanent consequences ensue.

Whatever happens before or after are just side stories.

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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by TheMikado » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:10 pm

Shineman wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:snip
God damn, now that's an interesting analysis of the Saiyans (which I guess it's funny how Turles is more cunning than a fighter). How would Broly, from the original films, fit into the concept of your average Saiyan?
I wouldn’t call it interesting it’s how it’s original was written. I’ve gone in-depth multiple types describing how Broly (original) was the essentially the epitome of a Saiyan personified. He bullied others and was particularly cruel and sadistic to those too weak to defend themselves and relished in violence, not necessarily a challenge.

It would also make sense that getting beaten up or defeated by someone they perceived weaker would mentally break a Saiyan due to their “bully” nature. Even Broly seems to be mentally broken in movie 10 and raditz, Vegeta, and Nappa all groveled like pitiful cowards like a standard bully. It’s a shame that Saiyan nature has been redefined as the original concept was much more interesting to watch a race of galactic bullies.

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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by zarmack » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:37 pm

ABED wrote: Bardock is different. He's an antihero and the protagonist of the movie.
90's Bardock was portrayed as inherently no different from the rest of the full-blooded Saiyans. Him being a protagonist and antihero makes no difference.

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Re: How would you write a Grand Finale arc for the franchise?

Post by zarmack » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:39 pm

TheMikado wrote:
I wouldn’t call it interesting it’s how it’s original was written. I’ve gone in-depth multiple types describing how Broly (original) was the essentially the epitome of a Saiyan personified. He bullied others and was particularly cruel and sadistic to those too weak to defend themselves and relished in violence, not necessarily a challenge.
All because of Goku crying as a baby lol.

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