What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Doctor. » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:30 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:Cumber is the worst and lamest thing to come out of modern DB since Kale. He might actually be worse. I can see why people would be upset with him fighting on par with a fusion. We don't know jackshit about this character. He's just a recolored, edgier Broly, known as the "evillllll saiyan." wtf is that? I find his existence offensive.

Gogeta vs Broly doesn't bother me because we, more or less, understand what Broly is supposed to be, and his whole schtick is that he continues to grow in power as he fights. I haven't read too many spoilers, but I assume he begins his fight with Goku and Vegeta without the power he has by the end of the film.
He's a videogame character for a kid's card game.

Kale is actually a character in the spotlight of multiple episodes of a sequel to the original series.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:52 pm

Forte224 wrote:Agreed. And even if some people do say that about Cumber keeping up with a fusion (which is probably a vocal minority, because who cares enough to complain about that, honestly?), why would someone automatically assume those exact same people are the ones praising Gogeta vs Broli?
PFM18 wrote:Also, people associate Cumber with him keeping up with one fusion/being even and then getting dominated by another fusion that by all accounts should be at most the same strength as the previous fusion with no explanation whatsoever. People don't associate Cumber with that kind of BS. Gogeta is super strong and consistently portrayed that way, and Gogeta is super strong and consistently portrayed that way.
I was considering making a compilation of all the occasions I saw (most of them are in another language, that is why I haven't provided you some examples before), but nevermind, we just had to wait a little bit for it to appear here, as you can see below:
Cumber is the worst and lamest thing to come out of modern DB since Kale. I can see why people would be upset with him fighting on par with a fusion. I find his existence offensive.

Gogeta vs Broly doesn't bother me.
Cumber vs Xeno Vegetto is offensive, but Broly vs Gogeta is wonderful. A single man keeping up with fusion can only be made by Toriyama, everything else is nonsensical. It's just what I'm always saying: if Heroes had come up with recolors and Golden Freeza, the game would be even more bashed than it already is, but we don't see that much because those concepts actually came from Toriyama.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by PFM18 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:59 pm

Grimlock wrote:I was considering making a compilation of all the occasions I saw
Point is, usually people don't have an issue with Cumber in the way that you framed it. The issue is, we don't know jack shit about Cumber, he's just kind of presented as super strong, without hearing any kind of attempt to rationalize how he is that strong. It isn't just a matter of him being a single Saiyan, and Broly also being a single Saiyan, that's oversimplification.

And also, Cumber fights on par with SSBKKx20 Vegetto, and then gets his ass kicked by SSJ4 Vegetto when it had just been established that SSJ4 Goku is at best as strong as SSB Goku, and certainly not stronger. It made absolutely no sense, it is complete BS. At least to me, Cumber puts a sour taste in my mouth that he is associated with that bull shit going on.
Doctor. wrote: He's a videogame character for a kid's card game.

Kale is actually a character in the spotlight of multiple episodes of a sequel to the original series.
...yeah there's definitely a difference there. Heroes characters can be as horrendously bad as they want, but I will never actually get offended by that badness. Super is held to a different standard as a sequel to the original series written by the series' creator.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:10 pm

PFM18 wrote:Point is, usually people don't have an issue with Cumber in the way that you framed it. The issue is, we don't know jack shit about Cumber, he's just kind of presented as super strong, without hearing any kind of attempt to rationalize how he is that strong. It isn't just a matter of him being a single Saiyan, and Broly also being a single Saiyan, that's oversimplification.
Except we do, he was wearing some sort of jacket with Fu's symbol in it, he was certainly under Fu's experiment and got his power increased.
PFM18 wrote:And also, Cumber fights on par with SSBKKx20 Vegetto, and then gets his ass kicked by SSJ4 Vegetto when it had just been established that SSJ4 Goku is at best as strong as SSB Goku, and certainly not stronger. It made absolutely no sense, it is complete BS. At least to me, Cumber puts a sour taste in my mouth that he is associated with that bull shit going on.
No, he does not. Vegetto does not even use regular Kaio-Ken against Cumber, it is a simple Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegetto against Super Saiyan Cumber. That sounds familiar, where have I seen Super Saiyan fighting against Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan? Oh yeah... in the new movie.

You may want to follow Heroes, mainly the arcade version, more closely so to avoid making these "BS" statements.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by PFM18 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:25 pm

Grimlock wrote:Except we do, he was wearing some sort of jacket with Fu's symbol in it, he was certainly under Fu's experiment and got his power increased.
That hardly qualifies as a legitimate explanation, if an explanation at all. Even if we assume that he is being experimented on by Fu, I don't see how that justifies a massive power increase.
No, he does not. Vegetto does not even use regular Kaio-Ken against Cumber, it is a simple Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegetto against Super Saiyan Cumber. That sounds familiar, where have I seen
As far as the Heroes anime is concerned, he fights SSBKK, fights evenly, and then loses to SSJ4 Vegetto.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Shaddy » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:30 pm

Grimlock wrote: Cumber vs Xeno Vegetto is offensive, but Broly vs Gogeta is wonderful. A single man keeping up with fusion can only be made by Toriyama, everything else is nonsensical. It's just what I'm always saying: if Heroes had come up with recolors and Golden Freeza, the game would be even more bashed than it already is, but we don't see that much because those concepts actually came from Toriyama.
This entire front of "you're just biased toward Toriyama" is just covering the lack of comprehension that one part of the series is just worse than another to a lot of people. The reason Cumber sucks isn't because of powerscaling nonsense, it's because he and his series are completely boring. There's no charm, no reason, motivation, or personality behind the character, and no intrigue, energy or movement behind the entirety of Heroes. It's all a way of dismissing and delegitimizing other people and their opinions, and it's childish as all hell.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:39 pm

PFM18 wrote:That hardly qualifies as a legitimate explanation, if an explanation at all. Even if we assume that he is being experimented on by Fu, I don't see how that justifies a massive power increase.
Correct, it is not a legit explanation. But becoming stronger because plot demands so that Broly can fight a fusion is.
PFM18 wrote:As far as the Heroes anime is concerned, he fights SSBKK, fights evenly, and then loses to SSJ4 Vegetto.
And as far as the arcade version (which is the main one) is concerned, he does not even use Kaio-Ken.

We do not have a conclusive outcome to Xeno Vegetto and Cumber fight. The latter was sent away, but that does not mean defeat.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Forte224 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:48 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Forte224 wrote:Agreed. And even if some people do say that about Cumber keeping up with a fusion (which is probably a vocal minority, because who cares enough to complain about that, honestly?), why would someone automatically assume those exact same people are the ones praising Gogeta vs Broli?
PFM18 wrote:Also, people associate Cumber with him keeping up with one fusion/being even and then getting dominated by another fusion that by all accounts should be at most the same strength as the previous fusion with no explanation whatsoever. People don't associate Cumber with that kind of BS. Gogeta is super strong and consistently portrayed that way, and Gogeta is super strong and consistently portrayed that way.
I was considering making a compilation of all the occasions I saw (most of them are in another language, that is why I haven't provided you some examples before), but nevermind, we just had to wait a little bit for it to appear here, as you can see below:
Cumber is the worst and lamest thing to come out of modern DB since Kale. I can see why people would be upset with him fighting on par with a fusion. I find his existence offensive.

Gogeta vs Broly doesn't bother me.
Cumber vs Xeno Vegetto is offensive, but Broly vs Gogeta is wonderful. A single man keeping up with fusion can only be made by Toriyama, everything else is nonsensical. It's just what I'm always saying: if Heroes had come up with recolors and Golden Freeza, the game would be even more bashed than it already is, but we don't see that much because those concepts actually came from Toriyama.
"Broly vs Gogeta is wonderful"? He said it didn't bother him. And he gave a perfectly valid reason to why. Way to put words in his mouth

But hey, you know what? I'm not having this discussion with you. You've made it very clear several times that you just can't handle criticism of Heroes/Online/any modern Dragon Ball that isn't Super. So I'll just ignore this now.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:50 pm

"I'll ignore you, but I will also join the conversation for some reason". :crazy:

Decide what you are going to do so that I can also know what I will do. If you have nothing to say, you have nothing to say.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by PFM18 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:59 pm

Correct, it is not a legit explanation. But becoming stronger because plot demands so that Broly can fight a fusion is.
Broly is given an explanation to some extent. He is extremely gifted, he has over double the power level of 23 year old Goku as a toddler. And he has never really been challenged in combat, and has learned adapted to fighting once he finally is actually challenged in combat. It makes sense to me.
And as far as the arcade version (which is the main one) is concerned, he does not even use Kaio-Ken.

We do not have a conclusive outcome to Xeno Vegetto and Cumber fight. The latter was sent away, but that does not mean defeat.
I guess I just care even less about this arcade version than I do the anime version of Heroes. Sure, I guess that could work, but normally these days when people talk about Cumber, they are talking about the anime.
Grimlock wrote:"I'll ignore you, but I will also join the conversation for some reason". :crazy:

Decide what you are going to do so that I can also know what I will do. If you have nothing to say, you have nothing to say.
He was just calling you out for using a blatant strawman in an attempt to defend Heroes, but acknowledging that it doesn't matter because you have shown yourself to be incapable of being objective about any "alternative modern Dragon Ball", not trying to take an active role in the conversation.

Made sense to me anyway.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:09 pm

PFM18 wrote:Broly is given an explanation to some extent. He is extremely gifted, he has over double the power level of 23 year old Goku as a toddler. And he has never really been challenged in combat, and has learned adapted to fighting once he finally is actually challenged in combat. It makes sense to me.
Yet, receving power/being under experiment does not make sense? So things only make sense to you when you like that thing/when it is convenient for you? If so, yeah, that makes sense to me too.
PFM18 wrote:He was just calling you out for using a blatant strawman in an attempt to defend Heroes, but acknowledging that it doesn't matter because you have shown yourself to be incapable of being objective about any "alternative modern Dragon Ball", not trying to take an active role in the conversation.

Made sense to me anyway.
I mean, at the end of the day, me or anyone else that realizes that people attack something in a certain medium and praise the same idea in another one done by/with the involvement of the author will be labeled as a "strawman". If you don't agree with the majority, some adjectives will come right at you.

Also, did it make sense because it was convenient for you too?

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by PFM18 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:19 pm

Grimlock wrote:Yet, receving power/being under experiment does not make sense? So things only make sense to you when you like that thing/when it is convenient for you? If so, yeah, that makes sense to me too
This experiment crap is certainly not even remotely explicit about justifying his strength. And given the emphasis on potential, and the natural abilities of a fighter in this series, it is perfectly consistent with that premise for Broly to become super strong on those grounds. On the other hand, there's no precedence for some dude experimenting on you making you obscenely powerful nor does it make intuitive sense.
I mean, at the end of the day, me or anyone else that realizes that people attack something in a certain medium and praise the same idea in another one done by/with the involvement of the author will be labeled as a "strawman". If you don't agree with the majority, some adjectives will come right at you.
I hate this tendency of attacking something in one medium and praising the same in another medium as much as the next guy, but you were just called a strawman for mischaracterizing somebody else's argument. Ya know, since that is what a strawman is?

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:30 pm

PFM18 wrote:On the other hand, there's no precedence for some dude experimenting on you making you obscenely powerful nor does it make intuitive sense.
Lapis and Lazuli, mere humans, were experimented on using Earth materials and they became androids stronger than Freeza. Yet, there is no precedence of experiment being the reason of a great increase in power. :roll: You just gave another example.
PFM18 wrote:I hate this tendency of attacking something in one medium and praising the same in another medium as much as the next guy, but you were just called a strawman for mischaracterizing somebody else's argument. Ya know, since that is what a strawman is?
I didn't mischaracterize anything as my posts weren't intended for anyone here in particular. People do exactly what I am saying here and there is no denying in that.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Shaddy » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:40 pm

PFM18 wrote: I hate this tendency of attacking something in one medium and praising the same in another medium as much as the next guy, but you were just called a strawman for mischaracterizing somebody else's argument. Ya know, since that is what a strawman is?
"Attacking something in one medium and praising the same in another medium" is already a mischaracterization in and of itself, because acts as if the playing field is level in the first place when it very obviously isn't. The very first statement this dude makes characterizes Broly and Cumber as being exactly the same with only Cumber receiving criticism because "muh Toriyama". But that's a complete mockery of the entire discussion and flanderizes the people he disagrees with as subservient Toriyama bootlickers when a massive, massive portion of discussion surrounding the new movie has been trying to dissect whether Toriyama's version of both Broly and Bardock's story is or could conceivably be made better than Toei's original writing, with Bardock in particular falling heavily on the "nah Minus is still shit" end of the scale in terms of majority opinion. It's basic distilling and simplifying of more complicated opinions to make them easier to reject.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by PFM18 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:41 pm

Grimlock wrote:Lapis and Lazuli, mere humans, were experimented on using Earth materials and they became androids stronger than Freeza. Yet, there is no precedence of experiment being the reason of a great increase in power. :roll: You just gave another example.
Cybernetically enhanced and changed from a biological lifeform into an android /=/ vague experiments

It is a reach to just call that "experiments"
didn't mischaracterize anything as my posts weren't intended for anyone here in particular.
That's a lie. You quoted somebody in this thread

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:46 pm

PFM18 wrote:Cybernetically enhanced and changed from a biological lifeform into an android /=/ vague experiments

It is a reach to just call that "experiments"
What!? :eh: C'mon... So to defend Toriyama as hard as you can, you are going this far as to say Lapis and Lazuli becoming androids are not experiment? Oh god...
PFM18 wrote:That's a lie. You quoted somebody in this thread
Figured that would be your argument, please read again the post I quoted someone, there's a context in it making it clear what was the intention.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by TheMikado » Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:34 am

I think the lamest this to come out of Modern DB is justifying/defending one insanely garbage power boost vs another.

Broly, Cumber, Kelifa, much of the ToP power ups, all belong in the same trash bin if we’re going to talk about power disparities in modern DB. It’s all bad and I don’t see how it’s possible to justify much of of vs others.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by zarmack » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:08 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:Cumber is the worst and lamest thing to come out of modern DB since Kale. He might actually be worse. I can see why people would be upset with him fighting on par with a fusion. We don't know jackshit about this character. He's just a recolored, edgier Broly, known as the "evillllll saiyan." wtf is that? I find his existence offensive.

Gogeta vs Broly doesn't bother me because we, more or less, understand what Broly is supposed to be, and his whole schtick is that he continues to grow in power as he fights. I haven't read too many spoilers, but I assume he begins his fight with Goku and Vegeta without the power he has by the end of the film.
Cumber's backstory has yet to be revealed. You can't bash an intentionally mysterious character for not having a fully revealed backstory (yet). That makes no sense.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Shaddy » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:59 pm

Uh, yeah you can. Plenty of amazing characters across all media have no personal backstory whatsoever. Nothing is a substitute for characterization and personality. That's why Jiren is still bland as hell even though he has a backstory. Cumber is fucking nothing in terms of writing because Heroes as a whole (well, Nagayama's manga tries) is completely apathetic to the personalities of characters and the ways they interact.

There's also no guarantee that he's even going to get a backstory beyond "he is old saiyan. evil. time travel. woo". Something more interesting or emotional than that would be a first for Heroes, but I see zero inclination from that series that it's going to strive to be anything beyond what it is.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Noah » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:20 pm

I agree with the sentiment of some who said Universe 6 Saiyans are lame, but I actually have no problem with them being "good" or some being part of some force who fights for the justice, I think it's a decent contrast to how Universe 7 Saiyans were evil. My biggest gripe is with their designs. Why we need them to be just strong brats that can go blonde? We already had Goten and Trunks for those before.
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