Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PFM18]

So, that old theory that god forms (red and blue) were stronger than fusions has finally being confirmed to not be true.

I’m curious about what people think regarding how a god fusion compares to Ultra Instinct.

It's not an old theory, it was made abundantly clear that this was the case.

So either it's a retcon, or the fusion's power depends on the transformation capabilities of the fusees, which people had theorized for a long time to be the case before this movie was even announced, and it appears we have confirmation of that

[Miracles]

So, that old theory that god forms (red and blue) were stronger than fusions has finally being confirmed to not be true.

I’m curious about what people think regarding how a god fusion compares to Ultra Instinct.

I think people get the story and timing mixed up. Back then, in BOG, fusions had no god powers. Therefore,
Super Saiyan god was suppose to be the strongest thing ever in DB and was prophesied to only give Beerus a match.
Fusion was stated not be able to beat Beerus because the narrative already stated god powers is suppose to match him.
Now the fusions themselves have god powers, no way in chance is a single Blue Goku beating a current powered up Gogeta or Vegetto.

[Jmass97]

So, that old theory that god forms (red and blue) were stronger than fusions has finally being confirmed to not be true.

I’m curious about what people think regarding how a god fusion compares to Ultra Instinct.

I think people get the story and timing mixed up. Back then, in BOG, fusions had no god powers. Therefore,
Super Saiyan god was suppose to be the strongest thing ever in DB and was prophesied to only give Beerus a match.
Fusion was stated not be able to beat Beerus because the narrative already stated god powers is suppose to match him.
Now the fusions themselves have god powers, no way in chance is a single Blue Goku beating a current powered up Gogeta or Vegetto.

This.

[Miracles]

Just some food for thought. In Toriyama's version of Super, Super Saiyan Blue is enough to fight a merged Zamas head up.
Toyotaro assumed that made Zamas look weak and wanted Vegetto. However, it gives you an idea where Toriyama's mind set is.
To Toriyama the god forms by themselves are superfluous in power. No wonder why he only used them in the Broly movie and feels it unnecessary to stack MSSB/ Kaioken/Evolution to them.

[PFM18]

Just some food for thought. In Toriyama's version of Super, Super Saiyan Blue is enough to fight a merged Zamas head up.
Toyotaro assumed that made Zamas look weak and wanted Vegetto. However, it gives you an idea where Toriyama's mind set is.
To Toriyama the god forms by themselves are superfluous in power. No wonder why he only used them in the Broly movie and feels it unnecessary to stack MSSB/ Kaioken/Evolution to them.

Okay that's great and all, but these powerful iterations of SSB that could keep up with Merged Zamasu and render Evolution/Kaioken unnecessary never actually manifested themselves so we have nothing to go off of.

[Miracles]

Just some food for thought. In Toriyama's version of Super, Super Saiyan Blue is enough to fight a merged Zamas head up.
Toyotaro assumed that made Zamas look weak and wanted Vegetto. However, it gives you an idea where Toriyama's mind set is.
To Toriyama the god forms by themselves are superfluous in power. No wonder why he only used them in the Broly movie and feels it unnecessary to stack MSSB/ Kaioken/Evolution to them.

Okay that's great and all, but these powerful iterations of SSB that could keep up with Merged Zamasu and render Evolution/Kaioken unnecessary never actually manifested themselves so we have nothing to go off of.

Yes. I only stated it to show where Toriyama's head possibly is compared to Toyatoro and TOEI.

[Marlowe89]

Just some food for thought. In Toriyama's version of Super, Super Saiyan Blue is enough to fight a merged Zamas head up.

That's also true in the manga though. "CSSB" is a fanmade term for what's really just Super Saiyan Blue at full power.

The old power-draining variant was also entirely superseded by the perfected version, then Vegeta showed that it can be boosted even further and cloaked in another aura.

[PFM18]

Just some food for thought. In Toriyama's version of Super, Super Saiyan Blue is enough to fight a merged Zamas head up.

That's also true in the manga though. "CSSB" is a fanmade term for what's really just Super Saiyan Blue at full power.

The old power-draining variant was also entirely superseded by the perfected version, then Vegeta showed that it can be boosted even further and cloaked in another aura.

CSSB was used to describe the iteration that no longer had an aura as was on full-display in the fight against Zamasu. I guess you could call it "SSB at full-power" but there is a tangible difference between it and normal SSB that essentially requires a name change.

Vegeta had a brief little power-boost at the end of the ToP in which he had an aura but that doesn't really say anything about the form of SSB in general.

[Marlowe89]

but there is a tangible difference between it and normal SSB that essentially requires a name change.

Well... no, it doesn't. If it required a name change, there would have been a name change. All they did was eliminate a crippling weakness by absorbing the aura.

The characters always refer to Super Saiyan Blue as "Super Saiyan Blue" in the manga, regardless of whether they're using the incomplete power-draining version, the completed version, or the upgraded/boosted version.

There's no rule that necessitates a form having its name changed just because it was improved in some way. The same concept applies to Super Saiyan in the original manga, as well as Super Saiyan 2 in more recent materials.

[PFM18]

but there is a tangible difference between it and normal SSB that essentially requires a name change.

Well... no, it doesn't. If it required a name change, there would have been a name change. All they did was eliminate a crippling weakness by absorbing the aura.

The characters always refer to Super Saiyan Blue as Super Saiyan Blue in the manga, regardless of whether they're using the incomplete power-draining version, the completed version, or the upgraded/boosted version.

There's no rule that necessitates a form having its name changed just because it was improved in some way. The same concept applies to Super Saiyan in the original manga, as well as Super Saiyan 2 in more recent materials.

Super Saiyan Blue is still Super Saiyan Blue in the same way that Grade 4 is still Super Saiyan. But there is a reason that the name "Super Saiyan Grade 4" exists.

[Marlowe89]

Super Saiyan Blue is still Super Saiyan Blue in the same way that Grade 4 is still Super Saiyan. But there is a reason that the name "Super Saiyan Grade 4" exists.

Grade 4 is a guidebook-exclusive term introduced for the sole purpose of helping readers differentiate between various uses of Super Saiyan. Supplementary descriptions in those same guides make it clear that it's just a regular Super Saiyan conditioned to function like a natural state. In Toriyama's manga, it's simply known as "Super Saiyan".

There are other examples of this; notably Super Saiyan 2, which has a power-boosted state accessible to Trunks despite not having any known name alteration.

My point was not that people shouldn't distinguish between form variants using whatever terminology is convenient, but that these are inherently the same form. The manga effectively supports Toriyama's view of Super Saiyan Blue being sufficient to fight Fused Zamasu.

[Sora Saiyan]

but there is a tangible difference between it and normal SSB that essentially requires a name change.

Well... no, it doesn't. If it required a name change, there would have been a name change. All they did was eliminate a crippling weakness by absorbing the aura.

The characters always refer to Super Saiyan Blue as Super Saiyan Blue in the manga, regardless of whether they're using the incomplete power-draining version, the completed version, or the upgraded/boosted version.

There's no rule that necessitates a form having its name changed just because it was improved in some way. The same concept applies to Super Saiyan in the original manga, as well as Super Saiyan 2 in more recent materials.

Super Saiyan Blue is still Super Saiyan Blue in the same way that Grade 4 is still Super Saiyan. But there is a reason that the name "Super Saiyan Grade 4" exists.

I believe Marlowe means in the source material it isn’t referred to as anything different. The same with grade 4, in the manga it’s just a SSJ that’s elimated the strain. We know from the SEG that Goku increased in power massively just by “constantly being a SSJ” (that’s how the SEG lists the training), so even though Goku seems a lot stronger in that form it’s just due to his body strengthening and adapting to the strain, alongside a few other benefits such as his ki control improving.

[TheOne]

So, that old theory that god forms (red and blue) were stronger than fusions has finally being confirmed to not be true.

I’m curious about what people think regarding how a god fusion compares to Ultra Instinct.

I think people get the story and timing mixed up. Back then, in BOG, fusions had no god powers. Therefore,
Super Saiyan god was suppose to be the strongest thing ever in DB and was prophesied to only give Beerus a match.
Fusion was stated not be able to beat Beerus because the narrative already stated god powers is suppose to match him.
Now the fusions themselves have god powers, no way in chance is a single Blue Goku beating a current powered up Gogeta or Vegetto.

That makes zero sense when you add how powerful Kefla was into the mix.

That’s proof right there that they were just looking for them to introduce SSG. We have zero reason to believe that individually Caulifla and Kale were stronger than Goku and Vegeta post Buu saga. Yet, their fusion eclipsed that of SSG and SSB.

You can try to piece together whatever theory you have to justify it happening, but at the end of the day we have no reason to believe that Toei/Toriyama thought nearly as detailed as you did when writing these scenes. They know people will eat up whatever they put in their face.

[Miracles]

Just some food for thought. In Toriyama's version of Super, Super Saiyan Blue is enough to fight a merged Zamas head up.

That's also true in the manga though. "CSSB" is a fanmade term for what's really just Super Saiyan Blue at full power.

The old power-draining variant was also entirely superseded by the perfected version, then Vegeta showed that it can be boosted even further and cloaked in another aura.

I totally forgot about that. I did some checking and you are right. After Goku fought Zamas with "the full power of blue," Goku was battling Toppo, Whis told Zenoh that Goku has five transformations. He said SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3, red and blue.

Thanks for that! So it looks like Toriyama's wish still got put in the manga at least.

So, that old theory that god forms (red and blue) were stronger than fusions has finally being confirmed to not be true.

I’m curious about what people think regarding how a god fusion compares to Ultra Instinct.

I think people get the story and timing mixed up. Back then, in BOG, fusions had no god powers. Therefore,
Super Saiyan god was suppose to be the strongest thing ever in DB and was prophesied to only give Beerus a match.
Fusion was stated not be able to beat Beerus because the narrative already stated god powers is suppose to match him.
Now the fusions themselves have god powers, no way in chance is a single Blue Goku beating a current powered up Gogeta or Vegetto.

That makes zero sense when you add how powerful Kefla was into the mix.

That’s proof right there that they were just looking for them to introduce SSG. We have zero reason to believe that individually Caulifla and Kale were stronger than Goku and Vegeta post Buu saga. Yet, their fusion eclipsed that of SSG and SSB.

You can try to piece together whatever theory you have to justify it happening, but at the end of the day we have no reason to believe that Toei/Toriyama thought nearly as detailed as you did when writing these scenes. They know people will eat up whatever they put in their face.

It's no theory but a fact that Battle of gods through the oracle fish told the audience only super saiyan god will be prophesied to match Beerus, not a non god level opponent. Back then that even includes a fusion as stated by Goku. People now are talking about a current fusion WITH god powers. There is a huge difference from then and now. Kefla was getting matched by a fatigue Goku Blue. Vados even cautioned that Kefla be careful against Blue Goku. Demonstrating just how powerful god level is. First time we've seen a non fused fight evenly against a fusion.

[Hugo Boss]

It's not an old theory, it was made abundantly clear that this was the case.

So either it's a retcon, or the fusion's power depends on the transformation capabilities of the fusees, which people had theorized for a long time to be the case before this movie was even announced, and it appears we have confirmation of that

If SS Gogeta is stronger than SSB Goku in this movie, that would happen anytime before when those forms already existed. I’m not sure what you are talking about.

I think people get the story and timing mixed up. Back then, in BOG, fusions had no god powers. Therefore,
Super Saiyan god was suppose to be the strongest thing ever in DB and was prophesied to only give Beerus a match.
Fusion was stated not be able to beat Beerus because the narrative already stated god powers is suppose to match him.
Now the fusions themselves have god powers, no way in chance is a single Blue Goku beating a current powered up Gogeta or Vegetto.

When I mean Fusion stronger than god forms, I’m talking about regular Super Saiyan Fusion, which this movie confirmed. Before that, we had only speculated how those forms compared, based on raw inferences of SSG being stronger than anything we had seen Goku use, including Fusion and Potara. Of course, this doesn’t hold water anymore. Fusion with god powers are simply Vegetto Blue and Gogeta Blue.

[PFM18]

Grade 4 is a guidebook-exclusive term introduced for the sole purpose of helping readers differentiate between various uses of Super Saiyan. Supplementary descriptions in those same guides make it clear that it's just a regular Super Saiyan conditioned to function like a natural state. In Toriyama's manga, it's simply known as "Super Saiyan".

Obviously.

My point was not that people shouldn't distinguish between form variants using whatever terminology is convenient, but that these are inherently the same form. The manga effectively supports Toriyama's view of Super Saiyan Blue being sufficient to fight Fused Zamasu.

They are inherently the same form just as SSJ and SSJ Grade 4 are the same form. SSJ Grade 4 is an improved version of that form, and it is different enough that a name distinguishing it is needed. Hence why the name "Grade 4" exists. SSB and CSSB are identical in the premise. The only difference being that "Completed Super Saiyan Blue" is a fan-made term and "Grade 4" is an official name, but both of them serve the same logical purpose.

If SS Gogeta is stronger than SSB Goku in this movie, that would happen anytime before when those forms already existed. I’m not sure what you are talking about.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Like I literally don't know what you are trying to say.

[Marlowe89]

I believe Marlowe means in the source material it isn’t referred to as anything different. The same with grade 4, in the manga it’s just a SSJ that’s elimated the strain.

Thanks for getting it.

I can sort of see why terms like Grade 4 or "Completed/Mastered" would be adopted for discussion purposes, but that distinction is only relevant in the arc they were introduced in. Like you said, my point was that the source material always takes precedence for official naming conventions; in the same vein, "Grade 5" in one of the earlier guidebooks turned out to be Super Saiyan 2 in the manga.

Both "CSSB" and Grade 4 outright replaced their initial, now-obsolete incarnations. We don't still refer to the current Super Saiyan as Grade 4 because none of today's materials do, either.

[PFM18]

I believe Marlowe means in the source material it isn’t referred to as anything different. The same with grade 4, in the manga it’s just a SSJ that’s elimated the strain.

I mean, yeah obviously. That was never disputed. Grade 4 was never named in the manga, but there is a reason that the name exists from supplementary material. And "CSSB" is more different from SSB than Grade 4 is from Grade 1 considering that it eliminates one of the main elements of the visuals of the form and changes the mechanics. CSSB is tangibly different from SSB, considering it has no aura and doesn't have that insane drain, so it makes sense to have a new name considering if you see an aura you instantly know it isn't normal SSB.

We know from the SEG that Goku increased in power massively just by “constantly being a SSJ” (that’s how the SEG lists the training), so even though Goku seems a lot stronger in that form it’s just due to his body strengthening and adapting to the strain, alongside a few other benefits such as his ki control improving.

yeah, obviously. Not sure why you're saying this.

[Miracles]

It's not an old theory, it was made abundantly clear that this was the case.

So either it's a retcon, or the fusion's power depends on the transformation capabilities of the fusees, which people had theorized for a long time to be the case before this movie was even announced, and it appears we have confirmation of that

If SS Gogeta is stronger than SSB Goku in this movie, that would happen anytime before when those forms already existed. I’m not sure what you are talking about.

I think people get the story and timing mixed up. Back then, in BOG, fusions had no god powers. Therefore,
Super Saiyan god was suppose to be the strongest thing ever in DB and was prophesied to only give Beerus a match.
Fusion was stated not be able to beat Beerus because the narrative already stated god powers is suppose to match him.
Now the fusions themselves have god powers, no way in chance is a single Blue Goku beating a current powered up Gogeta or Vegetto.

When I mean Fusion stronger than god forms, I’m talking about regular Super Saiyan Fusion, which this movie confirmed. Before that, we had only speculated how those forms compared, based on raw inferences of SSG being stronger than anything we had seen Goku use, including Fusion and Potara. Of course, this doesn’t hold water anymore. Fusion with god powers are simply Vegetto Blue and Gogeta Blue.

Yeah, It was only stated back then in BOG that fusion [overall] couldn't cut it like SSJ god. Now that scenario is no more and a SSJ fusion is greater than Goku blue. I'll wait to see how Gogeta does in the movie tho.

[ZombieVito]

So, that old theory that god forms (red and blue) were stronger than fusions has finally being confirmed to not be true.

I’m curious about what people think regarding how a god fusion compares to Ultra Instinct.

It's not an old theory, it was made abundantly clear that this was the case.

So either it's a retcon, or the fusion's power depends on the transformation capabilities of the fusees, which people had theorized for a long time to be the case before this movie was even announced, and it appears we have confirmation of that

I'm starting to believe this.

Vegetto or Gogeta in BoG wouldn't cut it because Goku only had SS3 as his max power output but now that they have god forms then the fusion's base is stronger compared to the one from the Boo arc.

Kefla can be explained by Kale. She is way stronger than SS3 and tangled with SSG Goku for a bit. It makes sense Kefla's base was able to overpowered a tired SSG.