"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

I honestly don't think the anime, which is now the big promoter of the franchise, is going to give away any major reveals (like the 'ending of an arc') concerning it's 'own continuity' to the manga.
We are not going back to the good old days when the manga does everything first and later on it's all adapted into the anime.
If the manga is allowed more freedom now it's to do his own story or what one might call 'canon-like filler' within its continuity.
Basically this is just stuff to keep us buzzy till the anime returns. The anime will catch up very soon to the manga and/or start its own arc that the manga (still) hasn't covered when it returns.

So if and when the anime returns you don't think they will do the Galactic Patrol arc? Which was stated to continue from the Broly movie? I think TOEI has to do that canon Patrol arc since it continues from the canon Broly movie which continues from the TOP. Naturally they will surpass the monthly manga but I believe they will do it while doing the same canon Patrol arc the manga is doing in their continuity. Or what if they create their anime original arcs in between arcs to give the manga time? That still would be frustrating for the fandom, delaying for a monthly manga?

I still don't think the manga will give away very important plot elements for the anime, like the conclusion of a big arc, this will probably happen within the anime itself. What i rather assume that will happen is the following:

1. The manga tells the first part of the Galactic Patrol Arc, maybe with some 'filler' to give the anime time to catch up, only to give the anime the final conclusion of the arc because of its massive promotional value.

2. The Galactic Patrol Arc is canon, as Toriyama is involved, but in effect a manga 'original arc'. Toriyama has stated there will be stuff in the manga that won't be in the anime. What he exactly meant is rather vague. But it could be meant literal: it's a manga 'exclusive', like it has been promoted in the first place. It could still be mentioned in the anime like Broly in the manga, but it's not exploited competely. It's a nice win-win when everyone is waiting for the new anime: it draws more attention to the manga for exclusive content, while the anime can start with all new content as well when it resumes.

After this initial 'catch-up', the current situation of anime being first and Toyotaro adapting later on could resume OR:

3. The manga completely starts to diverge from the anime, creating a 'exclusive' storyline, with similar story parts, transformations and/or characters to keep some resemblance for promotional reasons. At the end mutual transformations / action figures are most important to sell toys, not story arcs. With events that are very important to Toriyama they might still run somehow symmetric, with 'less important events' they can still diverge.

Nothing is carved into stone. Of course we all want a better written anime, i think Toyotaro might have some role in this, i am uncertain though he will completely determine the anime story from now on and become what Toriyama once was for the original anime run. He can, with Toriyamas concent, become this for the manga at least, but the anime is too important a marketing tool these days to depend on Toyotaro's care alone storywise.

Of course you don't have to follow me on this one, but that's how i see matters at this point.

Years ago, Toyotaro did say he would be ahead of the anime soon. He also would be giving information back to TOEI while he moved on.
It doesn't seem like filler and that the anime and manga would deviate from plot points. We'll see, It's interesting to see a different type of view.

[sunsetshimmer]

Popo actually says he's heard of Shadow Dragons destroying planets before and he said nothing about this to anyone. That is a really bad way to try and make your new concept fit the existing lore.

It's much better than Beerus being the one that ordered to kill saiyans or even worse he was the one that sealed Old Kai.
Not to mention Frieza surpassing SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSJ God and SSJ Blue in 4 months. If he was so afraid of "super saiyan" why didn't he train for a week? That should be enough. Why didn't he train for a week before arriving on Earth after Namek?

I am not a fan of any of those details so I don't see your point. They're ALL bad.

The difference is that bringing shadow dragons at least adds anything to story and gives overall very good idea for definitive ending of story.
And even if no one before said what danger awaits for overusing dragon balls, it was mentioned that they shouldn't overuse them.
It's not completely random stuff like super dragon balls.

[The gr]

Notes about this chapter.

-Once again the manga deliver a great climax and a great fight on top of it.

-The scene with Jiren and Vermoud were really great, these character were handled really well.

-While Goku and Vegeta teaming is predictable, it still felt epic and the Frieza death Ball sequence was also cool.

A decent conclusion however it isn't enough to save this arc from feeling empty and mediocre.

[Saiga]

The difference is that bringing shadow dragons at least adds anything to story and gives overall very good idea for definitive ending of story.
And even if no one before said what danger awaits for overusing dragon balls, it was mentioned that they shouldn't overuse them.
It's not completely random stuff like super dragon balls.

I disagree with it being a good idea, let alone a very good one. Further your references to other retcons did nothing to show why you think it would be a good idea.

Looking at just this plot point, it is absolutely riddled top-to-bottom with problems.

Building on Old Kaioshin's point is a terrible thing, because his line was originally him being sour, not 'by the way this will DESTROY THE UNIVERSE' - it completely mismatches the severity of the warning he gave and trying to tie them together just doesn't fit.

Which, ultimately, means that being completely random is better than doing a really poor job trying to tie itself to something that doesn't work.

[prince212]

Empty feelings about the t.o.p manga arc could are understandable , knowing the ending and being a medium that offer less information that the anime series is a dead weight.
Just imagine how different would be to read the last chapter t.o.p arc finale without knowing that Android 17 will be the winner ..... so yes , it was empty of emotions ... still enjoyable but empty. At least they play well with the small gap of opportunities to introduce differences, most of them well executed.

[PFM18]

Empty feelings about the t.o.p manga arc could are understandable , knowing the ending and being a medium that offer less information that the anime series is a dead weight.
Just imagine how different would be to read the last chapter t.o.p arc finale without knowing that Android 17 will be the winner ..... so yes , it was empty of emotions ... still enjoyable but empty. At least they play well with the small gap of opportunities to introduce differences, most of them well executed.

10 years from now when people are reading it for the first time, and weren't familiar with the anime run or vice versa, there will be a surprise and it won't be devoid of emotion. So that's cool right?

But yeah seeing it right now it doesn't evoke emotions in the manga to see him win.

[Rakurai]

You are totally misinterpreting the morality of the series. These villains want revenge because Goku defeated an evil person in the first place. Are you saying Goku was wrong to defeat Piccolo Daimao/Raditz/Freeza/RR?

When characters are brought back from the afterlife, it's not shown as denying reality. It's shown as righting a wrong. When a demon kills everyone on earth, is accepting reality and moving on the right thing to do when you can save everyone instead?

First, the anime pushed this much more than the manga did. Second, the person enforcing that morality is Zamasu, who the series shows is morally flawed. None of the real gods have taken action against Trunks, aside from a light scolding. In fact, Whis personally helps Trunks violate godly law.

Yes, there may be consequences for standing up to evil, but you don't blame the hero for that...you blame the villain.

Is letting Majin Buu kill off people left and right as he pleases okay just because the DBs will be there to fix it?

When Goku chose to die to kill off Raditz, what was the first thing the others wanted to do? Revive him. Sounds pretty selfish to me.

When Goku chose to sacrifice himself against Cell, what was the first thing the others wanted to do? Revive him.

When the heroes decided to spare Buu, what did they want to do? Make everyone forget about him.

When they decided to fight against the Saiyans and died doing so, along with Piccolo, literally the first thing they did was go to Namek to find more DBs so they could revive their fallen comrades.

The heroes used the DBs for selfish purposes, there's no doubt about that. And the Shadow Dragons built off of their constant reliance on it.

There was a message at the end of GT. Trunks said that the humans of the Earth should try to do things on their own without the use of DBs, a test by Shenron, and if they do, Shenron will surely come back. Overdependence on them makes you unreliable yourself at trying to get things done or done right.

Time travel fucks up the order of the universe, be it manga or anime. Even if the anime pushed it further than the manga, that doesn't mean it was bad.

[Rakurai]

Addind to the comparison. Here's Toyotaro's original, Toriyama's rough correction and Toyotaro's final work.

I remember there some people on Twitter making fun of this panel, including Ajay.

The irony when it turns out that it was Toriyama's correction. And frankly I rather much prefer Toyotarou's original, especially the smirk Jiren has.

And Goku's derp expression on the chapter seems to be because of Toriyama as well, because his mouth lines up just fine in the original. Another point of criticism when the chapter came out.

More reason as to why I think Toriyama does more harm to DB than good nowadays. I really hope Toyotarou doesn't end up copying Tori's current art style.

[batistabus]

Is letting Majin Buu kill off people left and right as he pleases okay just because the DBs will be there to fix it?
When Goku chose to die to kill off Raditz, what was the first thing the others wanted to do? Revive him. Sounds pretty selfish to me.
When Goku chose to sacrifice himself against Cell, what was the first thing the others wanted to do? Revive him.
When the heroes decided to spare Buu, what did they want to do? Make everyone forget about him.
When they decided to fight against the Saiyans and died doing so, along with Piccolo, literally the first thing they did was go to Namek to find more DBs so they could revive their fallen comrades.

The heroes used the DBs for selfish purposes, there's no doubt about that. And the Shadow Dragons built off of their constant reliance on it.

There was a message at the end of GT. Trunks said that the humans of the Earth should try to do things on their own without the use of DBs, a test by Shenron, and if they do, Shenron will surely come back. Overdependence on them makes you unreliable yourself at trying to get things done or done right.

Time travel fucks up the order of the universe, be it manga or anime. Even if the anime pushed it further than the manga, that doesn't mean it was bad.

It's called seeing the bigger picture. It's not something to be happy about, but the long-term goal is more important.

They revived Goku because he literally died saving the Earth. Again, righting a wrong. Same with Cell. Same with the Saiyan arc.

Boo wasn't evil (and also helped save the universe), so this allowed him to live in peace with one of the most high-profile people on earth...his only friend.

People who are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, in a just world, deserve to live. With the Dragon Balls, that's possible. By your logic, literally any wish made on the Dragon Balls would be selfish. If selfishness is punished, why would God create the Dragon Balls just to doom humanity? You would've been better off bring up Oolong as an example.

I think everyone can agree that dragons are badass, and it would probably be interesting to learn more about the Dragon Balls. Considering half of Super is just Toriyama reworking semi-decent ideas that other people came up with since he ended the manga, we'll likely see an arc of Super focusing on Zalama/Super Shenlong/dragons. Anyway, I've said all I need to say about this.

Spoiler:

Holy fucking fuck these are adorable. That's the best Gohan's looked in years. Videl is a queen. Marron must be protected at all costs.

[prince212]

Empty feelings about the t.o.p manga arc are understandable , knowing the ending and being a medium that offer less information that the anime series is a dead weight.
Just imagine how different would be to read the last chapter t.o.p arc finale without knowing that Android 17 will be the winner ..... so yes , it was empty of emotions ... still enjoyable but empty. At least they play well with the small gap of opportunities to introduce differences, most of them well executed.

10 years from now when people are reading it for the first time, and weren't familiar with the anime run or vice versa, there will be a surprise and it won't be devoid of emotion. So that's cool right?

But yeah seeing it right now it doesn't evoke emotions in the manga to see him win.

Right , at least we don’t have to wait 10 years to realize that android 17 didn’t gamble in the manga ..

He had a plan and also team worked with a cool partner

[Miracles]

Yeah, the manga's writing was more coherent. Due to the fact that it reaches back from Dragonball continuity. Android 17 not being able to be sensed was written better.

[PFM18]

Right , at least we don’t have to wait 10 years to realize that android 17 didn’t gamble in the manga ..

I don't see what this has to do with anything? Sounds like a not so subtle jab at the anime for no particular reason.(Certainly the reason isn't that it was relevant to the discussion.)

[prince212]

Right , at least we don’t have to wait 10 years to realize that android 17 didn’t gamble in the manga ..

I don't see what this has to do with anything? Sounds like a not so subtle jab at the anime for no particular reason.(Certainly the reason isn't that it was relevant to the discussion.)

It has to do with our conversation about the lacking of emotions in the manga by knowing the ending of t.o.p arc.
As I said there were few gaps to fill with different things that can give us some new content and I provide an example . It’s relevant
I’ll tell you that anime did better with fightings involving a17 , so you don’t get grumpy like every time somebody makes a comment about your anime . Jezz, take it easy

[Steven Bloodriver]

Popo actually says he's heard of Shadow Dragons destroying planets before and he said nothing about this to anyone. That is a really bad way to try and make your new concept fit the existing lore.

It's much better than Beerus being the one that ordered to kill saiyans or even worse he was the one that sealed Old Kai.
Not to mention Frieza surpassing SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSJ God and SSJ Blue in 4 months. If he was so afraid of "super saiyan" why didn't he train for a week? That should be enough. Why didn't he train for a week before arriving on Earth after Namek?

Akira Toriyama is perhaps well past his prime, Hakaishin Beerus is indeed a joke if you were to compare him to any form of the Saiyan Prince Vegeta, the Evil Emperor Frieza, the Time-Traveling Monstrosity Cell, and the Ancient Monster Majin Buu, as the four main villains of Dragon Ball Z had proven to have outdone the so-called God of Destruction by having left more of a lasting impression on the main cast and the rest of the Seventh Universe by each having been responsible for killing countless innocents and spreading fear across the cosmos.

Where in the case of Hakaishin Beerus, as a result of him being more of a Food Critic than an actual God of Destruction, so many civilizations that could have been a great help later down the line for introducing many forms of entertainment had been so heartlessly wiped out by him even before any of the centillions of planets could have any sort of chance to begin with, resulting in his Universe having such a low Mortal Level, not to mention that he is so full of himself, he didn’t even bat a single eyelid when Bibidi had almost killed him and left Whis inactive by unleashing Kid Buu (Base Form) on Daikaioh and the Supreme Kais, which left the most incompetent one among them to take charge, and he sleeps for so long, hardly any mortal even knew of his existence to begin with.

Frieza on the other hand, had much more going for him. He was actually the most feared being in the Seventh Universe and rarely if ever at all, left any of his enemies alive whatsoever, just ask of the very few in number of surviving species which include but are not limited to the Saiyans and Namekians who had each to learn the hard way that the evil Frieza was not to be messed with unless of course if you were a Super Saiyan or a Super Namekian respectively. All the while using the very abnormal Mutant powers he had directly inherited from his father, King Cold, in the form of a profession, one in which involves him or his Frieza Soldiers in invading and conquering planets to have some of them be sold for a very high-price on the Space Market, and for others to being converted to Command Posts for the Frieza Force. His very own father, older brother, and men never dare to get in his way, as Frieza’s sadism far surpasses his own power as well. With many other villains and villainesses following after him also not being able to quite live up to his legacy as the one and only true main antagonist of the Dragon Ball Franchise.

Even so, Frieza has been shown to have the very same set of weakness as almost every other villain and villainess both before and after him in the Dragon World, such as in the form of having such a prideful and arrogant deposition, he isn’t always capable of thinking clearly in tense moments and thus leads to him not making rational decisions in where they are needed the most, with one such example of Frieza being blinded by his prideful and arrogant nature, being when he had chosen not to take part in any training, which had cost him dearly on Planet Namek by giving rise to the Legendary Super Saiyan within Son Goku by killing Uncle Krillin and even before arriving on Planet Earth by not having listened to his own father’s advice and thus resulting in himself, his father, and Soldiers with them getting killed by Future Trunks. With history repeating itself yet again for Frieza many years later.

[superfan2024]

Addind to the comparison. Here's Toyotaro's original, Toriyama's rough correction and Toyotaro's final work.

I remember there some people on Twitter making fun of this panel, including Ajay.

The irony when it turns out that it was Toriyama's correction. And frankly I rather much prefer Toyotarou's original, especially the smirk Jiren has.

And Goku's derp expression on the chapter seems to be because of Toriyama as well, because his mouth lines up just fine in the original. Another point of criticism when the chapter came out.

More reason as to why I think Toriyama does more harm to DB than good nowadays. I really hope Toyotarou doesn't end up copying Tori's current art style.

No no no, Toyo's sketch was already derpy in the first place for Goku. Also, Toriyama was only fixing Toyotaro's Jiren. The whole original position was all Toyo in the first place.

[Lukmendes]

Building on Old Kaioshin's point is a terrible thing, because his line was originally him being sour, not 'by the way this will DESTROY THE UNIVERSE' - it completely mismatches the severity of the warning he gave and trying to tie them together just doesn't fit.

Yeah trying to amplify how grave that situation was via Old Kai's line is stupid, but it wouldn't be the first time DB does something like that, in Namek saga, Krillin talked about Zenkai, saying it explained how Goku kept getting absurd power ups, except in the opportunities Goku did have big gains (To be able to outclass Tao Pai Pai and be stronger than King Piccolo), there was a reason for it that was obviously unrelated to Zenkai, basicaly, DB is the kind of story that retcons shit to pretend to be clever when saying they were all connected.

Is letting Majin Buu kill off people left and right as he pleases okay just because the DBs will be there to fix it?

When Goku chose to die to kill off Raditz, what was the first thing the others wanted to do? Revive him. Sounds pretty selfish to me.

When Goku chose to sacrifice himself against Cell, what was the first thing the others wanted to do? Revive him.

When the heroes decided to spare Buu, what did they want to do? Make everyone forget about him.

When they decided to fight against the Saiyans and died doing so, along with Piccolo, literally the first thing they did was go to Namek to find more DBs so they could revive their fallen comrades.

The heroes used the DBs for selfish purposes, there's no doubt about that. And the Shadow Dragons built off of their constant reliance on it.

There was a message at the end of GT. Trunks said that the humans of the Earth should try to do things on their own without the use of DBs, a test by Shenron, and if they do, Shenron will surely come back. Overdependence on them makes you unreliable yourself at trying to get things done or done right.

Time travel fucks up the order of the universe, be it manga or anime. Even if the anime pushed it further than the manga, that doesn't mean it was bad.

I'll say that wanting to resurrect someone when they did a sacrifice is less on the selfish side, specialy since they needed Goku back to deal with Vegeta and Nappa, other resurrections, while in some way it can be selfish to just ignore life and death with the dragon balls, it's understandable to want your friends to keep living, specialy since most of the higher authorities have no problem with it, at no point Kami or Yemma bitched about it, although Old Kai did.

So while how selfish the wishes generaly were is a bit moot, I'll say the characters became over reliant on the dragon balls to the point they let catastrophes happen because the dragon balls can fix them, it's why say, they didn't deal with Cell as soon as possible (When he killed some soldiers, first thing Goku did was try to get the dragon balls back, which they wouldn't need to do it if they dealt with him faster), or let Boo kill everyone, dragon balls were effectively a crutch on them and that's undeniable, it pretty much allowed them to remain incompetent/stupid with barely any real consequences.

[Noah]

Can't believe I'll might probably back reading the manga. Never had much interested past Champa arc since it was the same story from the anime apart a few changes, but now seeing that for once is an original plot, I may give it a try.

[Rakurai]

It's called seeing the bigger picture. It's not something to be happy about, but the long-term goal is more important.

They revived Goku because he literally died saving the Earth. Again, righting a wrong. Same with Cell. Same with the Saiyan arc.

Boo wasn't evil (and also helped save the universe), so this allowed him to live in peace with one of the most high-profile people on earth...his only friend.

People who are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, in a just world, deserve to live. With the Dragon Balls, that's possible. By your logic, literally any wish made on the Dragon Balls would be selfish. If selfishness is punished, why would God create the Dragon Balls just to doom humanity? You would've been better off bring up Oolong as an example.

I think everyone can agree that dragons are badass, and it would probably be interesting to learn more about the Dragon Balls. Considering half of Super is just Toriyama reworking semi-decent ideas that other people came up with since he ended the manga, we'll likely see an arc of Super focusing on Zalama/Super Shenlong/dragons. Anyway, I've said all I need to say about this.

I think I may be straying further from my point here. The heroes used the DBs excessively for almost every bad or undesirable situation that's occurred, without relying on their own power or will to fix it, or accepting things.

It's not terrible to have a wish and get it granted but if it starts becoming like a magic genie lamp at your disposal, it makes the heroes lazy. The Dragon radar makes collecting them a total joke, not even an ounce of real effort. Furthermore, it killed any source of tension or loss when characters died or mass murder occurred.

The idea of there being consequences for becoming overreliant on a bunch of wish-granting objects is at the very least an interesting premise, if you don't believe it to be a good one. For someone to say it is inherently awful when we have stories like Red Ribbon robots and organisms coming back for revenge is nonsensical and frankly ignorant.

I'll say that wanting to resurrect someone when they did a sacrifice is less on the selfish side, specialy since they needed Goku back to deal with Vegeta and Nappa, other resurrections, while in some way it can be selfish to just ignore life and death with the dragon balls, it's understandable to want your friends to keep living, specialy since most of the higher authorities have no problem with it, at no point Kami or Yemma bitched about it, although Old Kai did.

So while how selfish the wishes generaly were is a bit moot, I'll say the characters became over reliant on the dragon balls to the point they let catastrophes happen because the dragon balls can fix them, it's why say, they didn't deal with Cell as soon as possible (When he killed some soldiers, first thing Goku did was try to get the dragon balls back, which they wouldn't need to do it if they dealt with him faster), or let Boo kill everyone, dragon balls were effectively a crutch on them and that's undeniable, it pretty much allowed them to remain incompetent/stupid with barely any real consequences.

The bolded is something I didn't really make myself clear of but which you did.

[Lukmendes]

So I was reading manga ToP again to confirm the 17 thing, and well, I was wrong when I said that there's no screen time about him and Freeza talking with each other much, since in hindsight, it's blatantly obvious he was planning the "self destruct":

https://i.imgur.com/Gshv3I9.png

The plan is still weird, but hey, like I said before, they probably just trusted Goku that much lol.

[Miracles]

So I was reading manga ToP again to confirm the 17 thing, and well, I was wrong when I said that there's no screen time about him and Freeza talking with each other much, since in hindsight, it's blatantly obvious he was planning the "self destruct":

https://i.imgur.com/Gshv3I9.png

The plan is still weird, but hey, like I said before, they probably just trusted Goku that much lol.

Oh Yeah, they spoke before about it. Toyotaro does do a good job of trying to keep continuity of original Dragonball. 17 couldn't self destruct due to Krillin wishing away their bombs back in Cell saga.
IIRC TOEI didn't understand this. They contradicted the Dragonball manga with 17 trying to self destruct and saying he survived it by luck. I also like the way the manga pointed out that 17 couldn't be sensed. Making his hidden presence believable. It's one of the reasons why I don't mind if TOEI can follow the manga as the comic stays ahead for a while to keep the writing consistent on both ends.