Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Vertical » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:12 pm

Curious as to everyone's Buu Arc gaps:

[Post RoSaT] Base Gotenks:
[Post RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks:
[Post RoSaT] SSJ3 Gotenks:
SSJ3 Goku:
Ultimate Gohan:

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:27 pm

Vertical wrote:Curious as to everyone's Buu Arc gaps:

[Post RoSaT] Base Gotenks:
[Post RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks:
[Post RoSaT] SSJ3 Gotenks:
SSJ3 Goku:
Ultimate Gohan:
Base Gotenks: 0.02
SSJ Gotenks: 1
SSJ3 Gotenks: 8
SSJ3 Goku: 1
Ultimate Gohan: 12

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:49 pm

Vertical wrote:Curious as to everyone's Buu Arc gaps:

[Post RoSaT] Base Gotenks:
[Post RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks:
[Post RoSaT] SSJ3 Gotenks:
SSJ3 Goku:
Ultimate Gohan:
Keep in mind that I'm in the middle of updating my battle powers list, so these are liable to change. In units of millions:
Gotenks: 300 > Super Saiyan: 15,000 > Super Saiyan 3: 120,000
Super Saiyan 3 Son Goku: 32,000
Ultimate Son Gohan: 150,000
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:It's strongly implied in the series that it's impossible to improve your base form once you reach SSJ, so the 10mil is what his power level was back on Namek.
Doesn't Shin heavily imply the opposite in the Majin Boo arc?:
Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”
Last edited by DanielSSJ on Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:35 pm

Vertical wrote:Curious as to everyone's Buu Arc gaps:

[Post RoSaT] Base Gotenks:
[Post RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks:
[Post RoSaT] SSJ3 Gotenks:
SSJ3 Goku:
Ultimate Gohan:
I'm working on a new list so these can change:

[Post RoSaT] Base Gotenks: 160,000,000
[Post RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks: 8,000,000,000
[Post RoSaT] SSJ3 Gotenks: 64,000,000,000
SSJ3 Goku: 30,000,000,000
Ultimate Gohan: 80,000,000,000

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:33 am

Vertical wrote:Curious as to everyone's Buu Arc gaps:

[Post RoSaT] Base Gotenks:
[Post RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks:
[Post RoSaT] SSJ3 Gotenks:
SSJ3 Goku:
Ultimate Gohan:
Gotenks post ROSAT : manga = 7'750'000'000'000,ssj =31'000'000'000'000, ssj3 = 248'000'000'000'000

Gotenks daizenshuu = 330'000'000'000, ssj3 = 10'560'000'000'000

Super buu manga = 232'000'000'000'000

Super buu daizenshuu = 9'440'000'000'000

Goku ssj3 = 1'600'000'000'000

Mystic gohan daizenshuu = 14'160'000'000'000

Mystic,gohan manga = 348'000'000'000'000

Daizenshuu nerfs gotenks to the point his ssj post ROSAT Is stronger than only ssj2 foku, meanwhile in the manga , ssj gotenks present rosat is stronger than ssj3 goku.
Iin the manga piccolo believed that base gotenks present roast cuold beat fat buu.
Plus, buuhan tells that even if goku and Vegeta would have fused like the 2 kids , it wouldn't be enough to beat him. It is possible to highball, but in this instance I've calculated buuhan putting him > hypoteticsl ssj buu saga gogeta, and not > ssj3 buu saga gogeta
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:59 pm

p-hyvo wrote:10'000'000 Is absolutely nothing. Following the scaling, logically Vegeta and trunks far surpasses that number when they face semi perfect cell.
As Super Saiyans.
Vertical wrote:Curious as to everyone's Buu Arc gaps:

[Post RoSaT] Base Gotenks:
[Post RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks:
[Post RoSaT] SSJ3 Gotenks:
SSJ3 Goku:
Ultimate Gohan:
Gotenks: 2
~ SSJ: 5
~ SSJ3: 20
SSJ3 Goku: 1
Chou Gohan: 24
DanielSSJ wrote: Doesn't Shin heavily imply the opposite in the Majin Boo arc?:
Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”
Gohan's body wasn't fully developed by the time he achieved SSJ, so naturally he'd have more room for growth after going through puberty. Another examples of things like this are Goku getting stronger despite the Super God Water drawing his dormant power out or Future Trunks going from weaker than Base Gohan to as strong as SSJ Gohan in 3 years.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:09 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
p-hyvo wrote:10'000'000 Is absolutely nothing. Following the scaling, logically Vegeta and trunks far surpasses that number when they face semi perfect cell.
As Super Saiyans.
I obviously meant in his base, boy
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:02 pm

Vertical wrote:Curious as to everyone's Buu Arc gaps:
I don't care for fussing about "gaps," but I do have numbers themselves. In millions...

Gotenks: 300
-- Super Saiyan: 15,000
-- Super Saiyan 3: 120,000
SS3 Goku: 36,000
Ultimate Gohan: 150,000
DanielSSJ wrote:Doesn't Shin heavily imply the opposite in the Majin Boo arc?:
He certainly does. There's that, and everything else that says the Super Saiyan forms simply take your normal power and multiply it by some amount. I don't know where this flabbergasting "they hit an absolute limit in their base forms and all their power growth after that only happens with Super Saiyan" idea comes from, but it refuses to die. Though regardless...
p-hyvo wrote:I obviously meant in his base, boy
No matter how "out there" and shaky anyone's ideas may seem, let's keep condescending and snitty comments like this to ourselves.

(And also work on making our posts more legible, while we're at it.)
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:56 am

Kaboom wrote: He certainly does. There's that, and everything else that says the Super Saiyan forms simply take your normal power and multiply it by some amount. I don't know where this flabbergasting "they hit an absolute limit in their base forms and all their power growth after that only happens with Super Saiyan" idea comes from, but it refuses to die. Though regardless...
It comes from Vegeta.
Chapter: 280 (DBZ 86), P3.1-2
Vegeta: “A Super Saiyan appears once every thousand years… a Saiyan who overcomes the wall which no warrior, no matter how gifted, can overcome…


And also from Toriyama himself and the Daizenshuu 7.
I was feeling that there were limits on mere strength, so I was generally always struggling to come up with something.
It actually makes a ton of sense, as their base forms lack feats to imply they've improved, and their base forms improving after that kinda kills the point of SSJ itself.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:12 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: It comes from Vegeta.
Chapter: 280 (DBZ 86), P3.1-2
Vegeta: “A Super Saiyan appears once every thousand years… a Saiyan who overcomes the wall which no warrior, no matter how gifted, can overcome…


And also from Toriyama himself and the Daizenshuu 7.
I was feeling that there were limits on mere strength, so I was generally always struggling to come up with something.
It actually makes a ton of sense, as their base forms lack feats to imply they've improved, and their base forms improving after that kinda kills the point of SSJ itself.
Vegeta was speaking of a millenniums old myth that he didn't even believe in until that point, aka not something that he had any firsthand knowledge about. And we know that the legend, as Vegeta described it, was an exaggeration. Plenty of non-Super Saiyans have matched and surpassed "the wall which no warrior, no matter how gifted, can overcome". Likewise, Super Saiyan has obviously appeared a hell of a lot more often than "once every thousand years". I have no idea why you'd take Vegeta at his word here, when everything he's said about Super Saiyan back then was either a massive exaggeration or outright wrong.

Anyways, all that stuff about "surpassing limits of regular Saiyans" in the guidebooks has always read to me as hype talk, not to be taken literally. Not to mention that the Super Saiyan's entry in the Special Attack Dictionary also states the oft repeated tidbit that Super Saiyan multiplies one's battle power by fifty, which you conspicuously left out:
In regards to Toriyama's statement, it seems as though he's speaking about an emotional, gut feeling he had at the time about the narrative, rather than making an authoritative declaration that there's a hard limit of how strong Saiyans can become on their own. And Toriyama certainly seems to think that a Saiyan's base power can still be improved after they becomes a Super Saiyan after Battle of Gods: Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:53 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Kaboom wrote: He certainly does. There's that, and everything else that says the Super Saiyan forms simply take your normal power and multiply it by some amount. I don't know where this flabbergasting "they hit an absolute limit in their base forms and all their power growth after that only happens with Super Saiyan" idea comes from, but it refuses to die. Though regardless...
It comes from Vegeta.
Chapter: 280 (DBZ 86), P3.1-2
Vegeta: “A Super Saiyan appears once every thousand years… a Saiyan who overcomes the wall which no warrior, no matter how gifted, can overcome…


And also from Toriyama himself and the Daizenshuu 7.
I was feeling that there were limits on mere strength, so I was generally always struggling to come up with something.
It actually makes a ton of sense, as their base forms lack feats to imply they've improved, and their base forms improving after that kinda kills the point of SSJ itself.


In buu saga, Vegeta is confident of winning the thenkaichi tournament in base, even if both piccolo and android 18 were competitors.
That shows that his base improved a lot.
Plus, power level wiseemi perfect cell is over a billion if you work the Right way,and Vegeta is consequentially in the tens of millions in base for him to have the possibility to beat semi perfect cell with standard ssj as trunks said
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:40 am

DanielSSJ wrote: Vegeta was speaking of a millenniums old myth that he didn't even believe in until that point, aka not something that he had any firsthand knowledge about. And we know that the legend, as Vegeta described it, was an exaggeration. Plenty of non-Super Saiyans have matched and surpassed "the wall which no warrior, no matter how gifted, can overcome". Likewise, Super Saiyan has obviously appeared a hell of a lot more often than "once every thousand years". I have no idea why you'd take Vegeta at his word here, when everything he's said about Super Saiyan back then was either a massive exaggeration or outright wrong.

Anyways, all that stuff about "surpassing limits of regular Saiyans" in the guidebooks has always read to me as hype talk, not to be taken literally. Not to mention that the Super Saiyan's entry in the Special Attack Dictionary also states the oft repeated tidbit that Super Saiyan multiplies one's battle power by fifty, which you conspicuously left out:
In regards to Toriyama's statement, it seems as though he's speaking about an emotional, gut feeling he had at the time about the narrative, rather than making an authoritative declaration that there's a hard limit of how strong Saiyans can become on their own. And Toriyama certainly seems to think that a Saiyan's base power can still be improved after they becomes a Super Saiyan after Battle of Gods: Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.
Said warriors that surpassed the Super Saiyan have done so by unnatural methods (Fusion, were artificial beings, magic, etc). The idea that SSJ is the only way to overcome a "base limit" gets mentioned again by Vegeta later in the series:
Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P11.1-5
Kuririn: “Th-that’s impossible…! Wh-why can he become a Super Saiyan…?! Don’t you have to have a tranquil heart to become one…!?”
Vegeta: “I was tranquil…Tranquil and pure…Pure evil, that is…I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”


There's no reason to assume it's just hype at alll. They're expressed to hit limits and need to reinvent their training methods (Or even themselves, in the cases of transformations and fusions) every arc.

The 50x actually pertains to the first Grade of Super Saiyan. It's expressed by Goku they'd need to transcend that in order to defeat the Cyborgs and Cell.
Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P1.1-2
Kame-sennin: “Aim even higher than Super Saiyan, you say? Is that possible…?!”
Goku: “I dunno…But it looks like I definitely won’t be able to beat these opponents without doing at least that…I’ll train for about 1 year, and if it’s no good, I’ll give up.”


Don't you think what he felt matters? He doesn't think Goku can get any stronger, so he had to come up with Super Saiyan in order to make Goku stronger.

In the original stories, Goku mentions to Gohan they have hit a limit, and 7 years later Goku is shown to only surpass such limit/wall when he uses SSJ2. I'd chalk Toriyama's statement up to God Ki altering the way Goku's body works. He did absorb all the SSJG power into his regular power and in Dragon Ball Super he's constantly getting stronger throughout the episodes without any training whatsoever (Something that we never saw happening in Z), after all.

Image

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P10.5
Context: after Goku makes Yakon explode with his Super Saiyan aura
Vegeta: “So that bastard Kakarot has also surpassed that wall…The Super Saiyan wall…”

p-hyvo wrote: In buu saga, Vegeta is confident of winning the thenkaichi tournament in base, even if both piccolo and android 18 were competitors.
That shows that his base improved a lot.
Plus, power level wiseemi perfect cell is over a billion if you work the Right way,and Vegeta is consequentially in the tens of millions in base for him to have the possibility to beat semi perfect cell with standard ssj as trunks said
He never expressed any will to win. He just entered the Budokai to face Gohan (And later Goku).

Not really, because their SSJ power doesn't rely on how strong their base is. To give you an example, Gohan in the Boo Arc is expressed to lose a lot of power as a SSJ2, but his base and SSJ forms are essentially the same.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:01 pm

If Super Gotenks could defeat Fat Boo, can we say Super Gotenks 2 would definitely wreck him also give some challenge to Super Boo?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:28 am

Noah wrote:If Super Gotenks could defeat Fat Boo, can we say Super Gotenks 2 would definitely wreck him also give some challenge to Super Boo?
Nope. The difference between fat buu and super buu is too much
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by BlazeDVH » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:58 pm

Noah wrote:If Super Gotenks could defeat Fat Boo, can we say Super Gotenks 2 would definitely wreck him also give some challenge to Super Boo?
No, Super Boo is far stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks(pre-rosat) i think.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:15 pm

Noah wrote:If Super Gotenks could defeat Fat Boo, can we say Super Gotenks 2 would definitely wreck him also give some challenge to Super Boo?
I definitely think SSJ2 Gotenks can defeat Fat Boo. But like the others said, Super Boo is too much. He would toy with Gotenks in that state.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:04 pm

Noah wrote:If Super Gotenks could defeat Fat Boo, can we say Super Gotenks 2 would definitely wreck him also give some challenge to Super Boo?
Of course. Post Rosat even Base Gotenks could take out Majin Boo.

Now I'm not sure if he'd really challenge Super Boo. Sure, he did give him some trouble as a SSJ1, but he arguably was suppressed there. Piccolo and Gotenks shit bricks when Boo starts yelling but before he opens a hole in the Rosat.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ThePiccolo » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:18 pm

Thoughts on this?

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2018/12/04/ne ... s-vegetto/

Was translated recently, basically says Gogeta > Vegetto. What do y'all think? Does this change how we view statements pertaining to Potara > Fusion Dance from the Boo Arc?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:40 am

ThePiccolo wrote:Thoughts on this?

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2018/12/04/ne ... s-vegetto/

Was translated recently, basically says Gogeta > Vegetto. What do y'all think? Does this change how we view statements pertaining to Potara > Fusion Dance from the Boo Arc?
That compares m12 Vegeta to buu saga vegetto, not buu saga Vegeta to buu saga vegetto.
Vegeta m12>vegetto>>Vegeta buu saga.

Buuhan knows perfectly the metamorphic fusion, and in the manga he himself states that if goku and Vegeta fuses that way, it wouldn't be enough to beat him anyway, so vegetto>ssj(at least) buu saga gogeta
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:05 pm

ThePiccolo wrote:Thoughts on this?
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2018/12/04/ne ... s-vegetto/
Was translated recently, basically says Gogeta > Vegetto. What do y'all think? Does this change how we view statements pertaining to Potara > Fusion Dance from the Boo Arc?
It's intriguing, especially how it describes the two different methods of Fusion causing the result's power to manifest in different ways.

But there's too many other things going directly against it. On top of the Elder Kaioshin saying that the "effect is greater" with Potara, we have at least a small handful of guidebook statements plainly saying telling us that the Potara makes a stronger Fusion. That stuff logically outweighs this, which is just kind of an odd outlier.

But it's still nice to know that nobody behind the characters thinks that Gogeta is some relative weakling who'd get stomped by Boo or Vegetto even if he went Super Saiyan 3, like I've seen many people argue for over the years.
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