The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[zarmack]

ToP Gohan vs Future Trunks at the end of the Zamasu arc.

Trunks casually stomps Gohan. He was trading blows with Merged Zamasu even before the Spirit Sword was formed.

[Kataphrut]

Buuuhan vs Base Kale & Caulifa
Ikari Broly vs Merged Zamazu
SS2 Trunks vs SSJ2 Caulifa

Buu stomps. If Kale were transformed it would be a different story, but she's worthless untransformed and I don't think an untransformed Caulifla could hack it against the likes of Buuhan.

Zamasu wins but spends most of the fight getting rag-dolled until Broly runs out of energy.

Trunks wins after a fairly even fight. Age and experience trump raw potential. Plus a weapon.

Either base Kale or base Caulifla could solo Z easily, so there's no way Buuhan wins.

I don't think so. People like to hype up the Super characters over Z, but my reading is that Buuhan and Buu-saga Vegetto actually cross into the Super power tier. Ultimate Gohan might as well, judging by how well he did against Goku when he got his power back. Plus, C&Ks feats aren't that impressive outside sparring with Goku.

For example, untransformed Kale got molly-whalloped by Napapa from Universe 10, the chump universe. Caulifla herself had to transform to ring Napapa out, who was earlier manhandled by Freeza and evenly matched with Basil, who is weaker than Fat Buu, who had to have still been weaker than Buuhan prior to his fitness training after the Zen Expo.

I just done a power scaling. This is fun.

[Kakarot]

Next Battle
Gogeta SSB VS Merged Zamasu
Caulifla y Kale VS Kid Goku (GT) before getting the SSJ 4

Gogeta dismantles Zamasu fairly easily before being obliterated by Infinite Zamasu.
Caulifla and Kale easily beat any GT character.

Infinite Zamasu is fodder to any Top tier character since the ToP (because Suppressed Jiren was said to be stronger than him).

Infinite Zamasu is infinite, so with his all-encompassing attacks there's really no escape for Gogeta.

[Hulk10]

Buu stomps. If Kale were transformed it would be a different story, but she's worthless untransformed and I don't think an untransformed Caulifla could hack it against the likes of Buuhan.

Zamasu wins but spends most of the fight getting rag-dolled until Broly runs out of energy.

Trunks wins after a fairly even fight. Age and experience trump raw potential. Plus a weapon.

Either base Kale or base Caulifla could solo Z easily, so there's no way Buuhan wins.

I don't think so. People like to hype up the Super characters over Z, but my reading is that Buuhan and Buu-saga Vegetto actually cross into the Super power tier. Ultimate Gohan might as well, judging by how well he did against Goku when he got his power back. Plus, C&Ks feats aren't that impressive outside sparring with Goku.

For example, untransformed Kale got molly-whalloped by Napapa from Universe 10, the chump universe. Caulifla herself had to transform to ring Napapa out, who was earlier manhandled by Freeza and evenly matched with Basil, who is weaker than Fat Buu, who had to have still been weaker than Buuhan prior to his fitness training after the Zen Expo.

I just done a power scaling. This is fun.

Yeah its true people do like to overrate the characters in Super.

[RecolorSaiyan]

If you are gonna use Merged Zamasu/future zamasu , please specify no immortality otherwise its pointless. Unless jiren/gogeta/ui goku can nuke an entire timeline and survive themselves, they cannot beat him. Whis mentions a superior sealing method in the anime and beerus in the manga flat out says he can't destroy immortals.

[zarmack]

Buu stomps. If Kale were transformed it would be a different story, but she's worthless untransformed and I don't think an untransformed Caulifla could hack it against the likes of Buuhan.

Zamasu wins but spends most of the fight getting rag-dolled until Broly runs out of energy.

Trunks wins after a fairly even fight. Age and experience trump raw potential. Plus a weapon.

Either base Kale or base Caulifla could solo Z easily, so there's no way Buuhan wins.

I don't think so. People like to hype up the Super characters over Z, but my reading is that Buuhan and Buu-saga Vegetto actually cross into the Super power tier. Ultimate Gohan might as well, judging by how well he did against Goku when he got his power back. Plus, C&Ks feats aren't that impressive outside sparring with Goku.

For example, untransformed Kale got molly-whalloped by Napapa from Universe 10, the chump universe. Caulifla herself had to transform to ring Napapa out, who was earlier manhandled by Freeza and evenly matched with Basil, who is weaker than Fat Buu, who had to have still been weaker than Buuhan prior to his fitness training after the Zen Expo.

I just done a power scaling. This is fun.

1. Ultimate Gohan in the ToP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ultimate Gohan in the Buu arc (people forget that Gohan continued to train for another day after regaining his Ultimate form). They are not the same strength.

2. Base Goku & Vegeta since BoG >>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Gotenks

3. Base Kale was under a lot of anxiety and nervousness when she fought Napapa. She was later shown (when she gains more confidence) to have a stronger base than Caulifla (who has a higher base than Cabba, who's base was equal to U6 arc Vegeta's, who's base was stronger than BoG SSG Goku), since Kale's SSJ1 > Cauifla's SSJ2.

4. ToP arc Buu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any previous Buu according to Goku's statements about him when they spared (and nothing suggest that this only applies to his slim form, which was never even described as a transformation.)

There are simply way too many feats and statements that suggest that even mid-tier Super characters like Cabba > all of Z.

[zarmack]

Gogeta dismantles Zamasu fairly easily before being obliterated by Infinite Zamasu.
Caulifla and Kale easily beat any GT character.

Infinite Zamasu is fodder to any Top tier character since the ToP (because Suppressed Jiren was said to be stronger than him).

Infinite Zamasu is infinite, so with his all-encompassing attacks there's really no escape for Gogeta.

Him being "infinite" doesn't mean much, since in DB raw power beats everything else if the gap is big enough. And if Suppressed Jiren is casually stronger than Infinite Zamasu just be existing (since he "transcends time") then SSB Gogeta shouldn't have a problem with him either.

[Kakarot]

Infinite Zamasu is fodder to any Top tier character since the ToP (because Suppressed Jiren was said to be stronger than him).

Infinite Zamasu is infinite, so with his all-encompassing attacks there's really no escape for Gogeta.

Him being "infinite" doesn't mean much, since in DB raw power beats everything else if the gap is big enough. And if Suppressed Jiren is casually stronger than Infinite Zamasu just be existing (since he "transcends time") then SSB Gogeta shouldn't have a problem with him either.

Except we've seen Infinite Zamasu be unable to be affected by sheer strength alone. How would SSB Gogeta be able to combat him?

[zarmack]

Infinite Zamasu is infinite, so with his all-encompassing attacks there's really no escape for Gogeta.

Him being "infinite" doesn't mean much, since in DB raw power beats everything else if the gap is big enough. And if Suppressed Jiren is casually stronger than Infinite Zamasu just be existing (since he "transcends time") then SSB Gogeta shouldn't have a problem with him either.

Except we've seen Infinite Zamasu be unable to be affected by sheer strength alone. How would SSB Gogeta be able to combat him?

That's because the people who tried to attack Infinite Zamasu in the Black arc (except Zeno) were far weaker than him.

[Kakarot]

Him being "infinite" doesn't mean much, since in DB raw power beats everything else if the gap is big enough. And if Suppressed Jiren is casually stronger than Infinite Zamasu just be existing (since he "transcends time") then SSB Gogeta shouldn't have a problem with him either.

Except we've seen Infinite Zamasu be unable to be affected by sheer strength alone. How would SSB Gogeta be able to combat him?

That's because the people who tried to attack Infinite Zamasu in the Black arc (except Zeno) were far weaker than him.

Do you have proof of this claim? And do you have proof that Jiren can destroy an immortal being?

[Hulk10]

Tao vs Raditz. This battle in my opinion would end with one very, very dead Tao.

[zarmack]

Except we've seen Infinite Zamasu be unable to be affected by sheer strength alone. How would SSB Gogeta be able to combat him?

That's because the people who tried to attack Infinite Zamasu in the Black arc (except Zeno) were far weaker than him.

Do you have proof of this claim? And do you have proof that Jiren can destroy an immortal being?

Infinite Zamasu both in an outside of the series itself was stated to be the strongest version of Zamasu ever (meaning that he's stronger than Black arc Vegito Blue and Spirit Sword Trunks).

[ZombieVito]

This is legit, the problem is that 17 did waaay better than Hit (at full power, with all his tricks) against Jiren, and bear in mind: against the assassin, Jiren was highly suppressed, against 17, he was at full power.
Man, this is why I hate Super.

How exactly did he do better? Both of them failed to even damage him in any significant way.

ToP Gohan vs Future Trunks at the end of the Zamasu arc.

Trunks but it's one hell of a fight.

Next Battle
Gogeta SSB VS Merged Zamasu
Caulifla y Kale VS Kid Goku (GT) before getting the SSJ 4

SSFP Broly was said to maybe have surpassed Beerus while Corrupted Zamasu didn't although he is GoD tier. Gogeta beats him as easily as Broly but then dies to Infinite Zamasu.
Goku get's finger flicked.

Infinite Zamasu both in an outside of the series itself was stated to be the strongest version of Zamasu ever (meaning that he's stronger than Black arc Vegito Blue and Spirit Sword Trunks).

Link please.

[Kataphrut]

Either base Kale or base Caulifla could solo Z easily, so there's no way Buuhan wins.

I don't think so. People like to hype up the Super characters over Z, but my reading is that Buuhan and Buu-saga Vegetto actually cross into the Super power tier. Ultimate Gohan might as well, judging by how well he did against Goku when he got his power back. Plus, C&Ks feats aren't that impressive outside sparring with Goku.

For example, untransformed Kale got molly-whalloped by Napapa from Universe 10, the chump universe. Caulifla herself had to transform to ring Napapa out, who was earlier manhandled by Freeza and evenly matched with Basil, who is weaker than Fat Buu, who had to have still been weaker than Buuhan prior to his fitness training after the Zen Expo.

I just done a power scaling. This is fun.

1. Ultimate Gohan in the ToP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ultimate Gohan in the Buu arc (people forget that Gohan continued to train for another day after regaining his Ultimate form). They are not the same strength.

2. Base Goku & Vegeta since BoG >>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Gotenks

3. Base Kale was under a lot of anxiety and nervousness when she fought Napapa. She was later shown (when she gains more confidence) to have a stronger base than Caulifla (who has a higher base than Cabba, who's base was equal to U6 arc Vegeta's, who's base was stronger than BoG SSG Goku), since Kale's SSJ1 > Cauifla's SSJ2.

4. ToP arc Buu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any previous Buu according to Goku's statements about him when they spared (and nothing suggest that this only applies to his slim form, which was never even described as a transformation.)

There are simply way too many feats and statements that suggest that even mid-tier Super characters like Cabba > all of Z.

The Gotenks thing is what everybody brings up to try and argue that everyone in Super is a billion squillion times stronger than Z. Has it ever occurred to them that Gotenks just isn't very good? He's a joke of a character who's never won a fight and only fought seriously against Super Buu, who he still wasn't able to beat. I don't even need to dismiss that scene as being from a bad filler arc to say him losing doesn't mean anything. If nothing else, you can say it's Vegeta and Goku's relative skill and experience that makes the difference. They used the same argument to justify Krillin vs Gohan and SS Goku, Base Goku vs SS2 Caulifla and most of Roshi's fights in the Tournament of Power. It's fine.

I'll give you that Ultimate Gohan in the TOP is stronger, they make that very clear. However I can't buy it with Buu, they never give any indication that he had to train or get some sort of boost between Z and his fight with Basil. He won because of his own unique abilities (abilities shared with and exceeded by Buuhan incidentally) and yes, his raw power advantage.

Basically, don't sleep on any of the Buus, they were the biggest threat in the original series for a reason, with feats like depopulating words and breaking through dimensional walls. That's why I'm arguing this- I like the Universe 6 Saiyans, but I don't think being introduced later should let a timid space cop, a street punk and her shy girlfriend stomp the genie destroyer of worlds, especially not when it's the weakest versions of them versus the strongest version of him.

[p-hyvo]

ToP Gohan vs Future Trunks at the end of the Zamasu arc.

Top gohan rapes

[Zamasu55]

This is legit, the problem is that 17 did waaay better than Hit (at full power, with all his tricks) against Jiren, and bear in mind: against the assassin, Jiren was highly suppressed, against 17, he was at full power.
Man, this is why I hate Super.

How exactly did he do better? Both of them failed to even damage him in any significant way.

He actually was the first to damage him. And Hit was stomped instantly after his strongest attack failed, 17 was not.

[ZombieVito]

The Gotenks thing is what everybody brings up to try and argue that everyone in Super is a billion squillion times stronger than Z. Has it ever occurred to them that Gotenks just isn't very good? He's a joke of a character who's never won a fight and only fought seriously against Super Buu, who he still wasn't able to beat. I don't even need to dismiss that scene as being from a bad filler arc to say him losing doesn't mean anything. If nothing else, you can say it's Vegeta and Goku's relative skill and experience that makes the difference. They used the same argument to justify Krillin vs Gohan and SS Goku, Base Goku vs SS2 Caulifla and most of Roshi's fights in the Tournament of Power. It's fine.

I'll give you that Ultimate Gohan in the TOP is stronger, they make that very clear. However I can't buy it with Buu, they never give any indication that he had to train or get some sort of boost between Z and his fight with Basil. He won because of his own unique abilities (abilities shared with and exceeded by Buuhan incidentally) and yes, his raw power advantage.

Basically, don't sleep on any of the Buus, they were the biggest threat in the original series for a reason, with feats like depopulating words and breaking through dimensional walls. That's why I'm arguing this- I like the Universe 6 Saiyans, but I don't think being introduced later should let a timid space cop, a street punk and her shy girlfriend stomp the genie destroyer of worlds, especially not when it's the weakest versions of them versus the strongest version of him.

Gotenks attacks were literally tanked. That requires no skill.

He actually was the first to damage him. And Hit was stomped instantly after his strongest attack failed, 17 was not.

You forget the very important reason that Jiren was off guard.

Thinking about it, Hit actually managed to hit Jiren head on. That's way more impressive.

[Kakarot]

That's because the people who tried to attack Infinite Zamasu in the Black arc (except Zeno) were far weaker than him.

Do you have proof of this claim? And do you have proof that Jiren can destroy an immortal being?

Infinite Zamasu both in an outside of the series itself was stated to be the strongest version of Zamasu ever (meaning that he's stronger than Black arc Vegito Blue and Spirit Sword Trunks).

I knew that. What we don't know is why their attacks didn't have any effect on Infinite Zamasu. It certainly wasn't because of any physical strength, as the three energy beams were dispelled upon reaching Infinite Zamasu. But how would Jiren defeat a being that he cannot destroy? Infinite Zamasu would have infinite stamina, and even Hakai can't destroy an immortal being. Jiren's stamina would eventually run out, and I doubt he could take trillions of Chou Makuhou's without any damage for a millennia.

[ZombieVito]

Do you have proof of this claim? And do you have proof that Jiren can destroy an immortal being?

Infinite Zamasu both in an outside of the series itself was stated to be the strongest version of Zamasu ever (meaning that he's stronger than Black arc Vegito Blue and Spirit Sword Trunks).

I knew that. What we don't know is why their attacks didn't have any effect on Infinite Zamasu. It certainly wasn't because of any physical strength, as the three energy beams were dispelled upon reaching Infinite Zamasu. But how would Jiren defeat a being that he cannot destroy? Infinite Zamasu would have infinite stamina, and even Hakai can't destroy an immortal being. Jiren's stamina would eventually run out, and I doubt he could take trillions of Chou Makuhou's without any damage for a millennia.

He can't win.

He will tire out and eventually get killed by Infinite Zamasu.

[zarmack]

I don't think so. People like to hype up the Super characters over Z, but my reading is that Buuhan and Buu-saga Vegetto actually cross into the Super power tier. Ultimate Gohan might as well, judging by how well he did against Goku when he got his power back. Plus, C&Ks feats aren't that impressive outside sparring with Goku.

For example, untransformed Kale got molly-whalloped by Napapa from Universe 10, the chump universe. Caulifla herself had to transform to ring Napapa out, who was earlier manhandled by Freeza and evenly matched with Basil, who is weaker than Fat Buu, who had to have still been weaker than Buuhan prior to his fitness training after the Zen Expo.

I just done a power scaling. This is fun.

1. Ultimate Gohan in the ToP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ultimate Gohan in the Buu arc (people forget that Gohan continued to train for another day after regaining his Ultimate form). They are not the same strength.

2. Base Goku & Vegeta since BoG >>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Gotenks

3. Base Kale was under a lot of anxiety and nervousness when she fought Napapa. She was later shown (when she gains more confidence) to have a stronger base than Caulifla (who has a higher base than Cabba, who's base was equal to U6 arc Vegeta's, who's base was stronger than BoG SSG Goku), since Kale's SSJ1 > Cauifla's SSJ2.

4. ToP arc Buu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any previous Buu according to Goku's statements about him when they spared (and nothing suggest that this only applies to his slim form, which was never even described as a transformation.)

There are simply way too many feats and statements that suggest that even mid-tier Super characters like Cabba > all of Z.

The Gotenks thing is what everybody brings up to try and argue that everyone in Super is a billion squillion times stronger than Z. Has it ever occurred to them that Gotenks just isn't very good? He's a joke of a character who's never won a fight and only fought seriously against Super Buu, who he still wasn't able to beat. I don't even need to dismiss that scene as being from a bad filler arc to say him losing doesn't mean anything. If nothing else, you can say it's Vegeta and Goku's relative skill and experience that makes the difference. They used the same argument to justify Krillin vs Gohan and SS Goku, Base Goku vs SS2 Caulifla and most of Roshi's fights in the Tournament of Power. It's fine.

I'll give you that Ultimate Gohan in the TOP is stronger, they make that very clear. However I can't buy it with Buu, they never give any indication that he had to train or get some sort of boost between Z and his fight with Basil. He won because of his own unique abilities (abilities shared with and exceeded by Buuhan incidentally) and yes, his raw power advantage.

Basically, don't sleep on any of the Buus, they were the biggest threat in the original series for a reason, with feats like depopulating words and breaking through dimensional walls. That's why I'm arguing this- I like the Universe 6 Saiyans, but I don't think being introduced later should let a timid space cop, a street punk and her shy girlfriend stomp the genie destroyer of worlds, especially not when it's the weakest versions of them versus the strongest version of him.

Base Copy Vegeta stomping SSJ3 Gotenks had nothing to do with skill (which is overrated in Dragonball in general). He literally tanked whatever Gotenks threw at him and casually slapped him up like nothing. That has nothing to do with "skill", but everything to do with raw power.