"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[emperior]

I'm simply going to resign to the fact that the main DB story is being milked past its prime, whether it's Toriyama, Toyotarou, or Toei writing it. It's diminished the story in my opinion and ruined how it concluded if they add unnecessary stuff in between for the sake of dragging it.

The fact DB is being milked is quite obvious just from the fact that they aren’t willing to go past its ending. It will be interesting to see how long they will be able to milk stories out of the 10 years gap before they are forced to get past them, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the plan is to end Super once the 10 years are fully milked so that the manga ending doesn’t have to be changed.

That's the problem, the manga has already been changed significantly, not just lore-wise but the manga ending makes no sense when taking Super into account, or it makes about as much sense as trying to reconcile GT continuity within Super continuity.

Unfortunately I have to agree. It’s clear the ending of the manga was written with Majin Buu as the last foe in mind, and it’s only pure luck on Toriyama’s part that he didn’t show Goku fighting at his best or that he didn’t even write that the 10 years which passed between Buu arc and the ending were peaceful times (although Goku not having had fun for a while sort of confirmed that).
Toriyama’s excuse for not going after the end of his manga was also very thin, considering that first of all he confused his Vegeta design for the one he did for GT, and the characters being old is not a problem considering the only one being aged who Toriyama still uses is Bulma, and she may as well wish to Shenron to get younger if Toriyama doesn’t like her having wrinkles.

[Acetona]

If Toei did adaptate the manga, we would get something like the Boruto anime, just a bunch of fillers. (For record, I do found Boruto entertaining enough on its own, but it's a bit lackluster as a sequel)

Boruto also has the main writer of the Manga checking up EVERY episode to make sure they are coherent, especially in terms of characters motivations, abilities and setting.
Ikemoto himself stated that the anime is as canon as the Manga because this.

I know the producers and Ikemoto himself has stated this, but I take it with a grain of salt. But it may be true, since I think the characters are always on character, while Super had bunch of ooc scenes like Majin Boo being a douche to Satan early on.

[emperior]

If Toei did adaptate the manga, we would get something like the Boruto anime, just a bunch of fillers. (For record, I do found Boruto entertaining enough on its own, but it's a bit lackluster as a sequel)

Boruto also has the main writer of the Manga checking up EVERY episode to make sure they are coherent, especially in terms of characters motivations, abilities and setting.
Ikemoto himself stated that the anime is as canon as the Manga because this.

I know the producers and Ikemoto himself has stated this, but I take it with a grain of salt. But it may be true, since I think the characters are always on character, while Super had bunch of ooc scenes like Majin Boo being a douche to Satan early on.

While Super definitely has flanderized some traits of the characters, I don’t recall many ooc moments (some are definitely questionable) and I don’t think your example holds up because Buu was always kind of a dick to Satan.
I think Toriyama definitely checked ever script for Super so if some ooc moment slipped it may have been due to Toriyama’s suggestions not arriving in time for them to change things, or maybe Toriyama just didn’t care or didn’t notice.
The flanderized moments are not inherently ooc so it’s entirely possible for Toriyama not to notice them when reviewing the scripts.

[Lord Beerus]

Boruto also has the main writer of the Manga checking up EVERY episode to make sure they are coherent, especially in terms of characters motivations, abilities and setting.
Ikemoto himself stated that the anime is as canon as the Manga because this.

I know the producers and Ikemoto himself has stated this, but I take it with a grain of salt. But it may be true, since I think the characters are always on character, while Super had bunch of ooc scenes like Majin Boo being a douche to Satan early on.

While Super definitely has flanderized some traits of the characters, I don’t recall many ooc moments (some are definitely questionable) and I don’t think your example holds up because Buu was always kind of a dick to Satan.
I think Toriyama definitely checked ever script for Super so if some ooc moment slipped it may have been due to Toriyama’s suggestions not arriving in time for them to change things, or maybe Toriyama just didn’t care or didn’t notice.
The flanderized moments are not inherently ooc so it’s entirely possible for Toriyama not to notice them when reviewing the scripts.

And keep in mind, some of the character exaggeration and questionable character writing comes directly from Toriyama.

[PFM18]

I know the producers and Ikemoto himself has stated this, but I take it with a grain of salt. But it may be true, since I think the characters are always on character, while Super had bunch of ooc scenes like Majin Boo being a douche to Satan early on.

While Super definitely has flanderized some traits of the characters, I don’t recall many ooc moments (some are definitely questionable) and I don’t think your example holds up because Buu was always kind of a dick to Satan.
I think Toriyama definitely checked ever script for Super so if some ooc moment slipped it may have been due to Toriyama’s suggestions not arriving in time for them to change things, or maybe Toriyama just didn’t care or didn’t notice.
The flanderized moments are not inherently ooc so it’s entirely possible for Toriyama not to notice them when reviewing the scripts.

And keep in mind, some of the character exaggeration and questionable character writing comes directly from Toriyama.

Frankly, I don't see this character exaggeration or flanderization in either medium. The only character that seems OOC to me is Videl, and she's such a minor character that it doesnt even really matter

[emperior]

While Super definitely has flanderized some traits of the characters, I don’t recall many ooc moments (some are definitely questionable) and I don’t think your example holds up because Buu was always kind of a dick to Satan.
I think Toriyama definitely checked ever script for Super so if some ooc moment slipped it may have been due to Toriyama’s suggestions not arriving in time for them to change things, or maybe Toriyama just didn’t care or didn’t notice.
The flanderized moments are not inherently ooc so it’s entirely possible for Toriyama not to notice them when reviewing the scripts.

And keep in mind, some of the character exaggeration and questionable character writing comes directly from Toriyama.

Frankly, I don't see this character exaggeration or flanderization in either medium. The only character that seems OOC to me is Videl, and she's such a minor character that it doesnt even really matter

Well, Goku’s goofy nature and naiveness has been exaggerated a few times, mostly after the end of U6 arc (with the whole, exaggerated, Monaka thing) and also in the FT arc, which really flanderized some of his traits (when he was in the future he was always serious though).
He was perfectly characterized in the US arc, which is coincidentally the arc where, according to the producers, Toriyama was the most involved with.

More than Goku being OOC or flanderized it’s the tone Toei set that didn’t really match the scenes, with Goku acting in character but in inappropriate situations, such as when the first thing he does when coming to Earth while Beerus was almost about to destroy it is too goofily get to Bulma and wish her happy birthday. It’s like the writers forgot Goku wasn’t buddy-buddy with Beerus there, and the director surely could have avoided using that terrible upbeat score.
Compared to the same scene from the movie written solely by Toriyama and directed by a better director, it’s like day and night. In the movie Goku arrives, ask Beerus to stop, everyone’s relieved to see him, and then he begs Beerus to not destroy Earth and to give him a last chance to try and find what’s Super Saiyan God.
This is an example of which we have basically the same scene but handled differently, and it clearly shows the difference the tone set and the dialogue being moved around does.

No one cares for the goofy scenes Toriyama wrote for Goku in the last three movies he wrote, because he wrote those lines in appropriate situations. In fact I never read of people calling the Goku seen in those movies out of character.

[Lord Beerus]

And keep in mind, some of the character exaggeration and questionable character writing comes directly from Toriyama.

Frankly, I don't see this character exaggeration or flanderization in either medium. The only character that seems OOC to me is Videl, and she's such a minor character that it doesnt even really matter

Well, Goku’s goofy nature and naiveness has been exaggerated a few times, mostly after the end of U6 arc (with the whole, exaggerated, Monaka thing) and also in the FT arc, which really flanderized some of his traits (when he was in the future he was always serious though).
He was perfectly characterized in the US arc, which is coincidentally the arc where, according to the producers, Toriyama was the most involved with.

More than Goku being OOC or flanderized it’s the tone Toei set that didn’t really match the scenes, with Goku acting in character but in inappropriate situations, such as when the first thing he does when coming to Earth while Beerus was almost about to destroy it is too goofily get to Bulma and wish her happy birthday. It’s like the writers forgot Goku wasn’t buddy-buddy with Beerus there, and the director surely could have avoided using that terrible upbeat score.
Compared to the same scene from the movie written solely by Toriyama and directed by a better director, it’s like day and night. In the movie Goku arrives, ask Beerus to stop, everyone’s relieved to see him, and then he begs Beerus to not destroy Earth and to give him a last chance to try and find what’s Super Saiyan God.
This is an example of which we have basically the same scene but handled differently, and it clearly shows the difference the tone set and the dialogue being moved around does.

No one cares for the goofy scenes Toriyama wrote for Goku in the last three movies he wrote, because he wrote those lines in appropriate situations. In fact I never read of people calling the Goku seen in those movies out of character.

Episodes 43, 53, and 58 are the episodes where I raised the red flag with regards to bad character writing for Goku. It's in those episodes where Goku's naivety and desire for battle were unnecessarily dialed up, but in the case of Episode 53 and 58, the character writing in question was placed inappropriately placed in the episode.

[The gr]

As usual The manga always have a good start then in the middle and end it goes from mediocre to terrible remember the previous 2 saga so my expectations are really low for this saga anyway on to the review.

-Moro is intimidating with his soul sucking ability and I hope he keep this creepy aura instead of being Black 2.0.

-The train sequence was fun, having less flurry punches and flat landscapes is a + in my book although it felt kinda unnecessary since it didn't do a good job hyping up Meru.

-Goku sensing Moro is good way to introduce the main villain to the audience.

[TKA]

As usual The manga always have a good start then in the middle and end it goes from mediocre to terrible remember the previous 2 saga so my expectations are really low for this saga anyway on to the review.

I remember the previous 2 "sagas," yes. Both were executed on a level far above the anime's rendition of them and can stand on their own when compared to non-Toei-Dragonball works. I'd say the manga's previous 2 arcs could go up against any of the shit you find in Jump and win, while the Super anime is bad even being compared to just Dragonball Z, let alone other series.

[The gr]

I remember the previous 2 "sagas," yes. Both were executed on a level far above the anime's rendition of them and can stand on their own when compared to non-Toei-Dragonball works. I'd say the manga's previous 2 arcs could go up against any of the shit you find in Jump and win, while the Super anime is bad even being compared to just Dragonball Z, let alone other series.

Um I didn't mentioned the anime buddy maybe I exaggerated with the remember comment but still I just didn't liked some of the decision made in those arcs although I'm not gonna pretend that the manga is the worst thing in the world since they are things that I enjoyed such as the climax of FT trunks, Cabba and Jiren relationships with his master and GoD.

[PFM18]

As usual The manga always have a good start then in the middle and end it goes from mediocre to terrible remember the previous 2 saga so my expectations are really low for this saga anyway on to the review.

I remember the previous 2 "sagas," yes. Both were executed on a level far above the anime's rendition of them and can stand on their own when compared to non-Toei-Dragonball works. I'd say the manga's previous 2 arcs could go up against any of the shit you find in Jump and win, while the Super anime is bad even being compared to just Dragonball Z, let alone other series.

Funny how you present this as some kind of objective fact. Or as if it in any way, addresses the criticism that Toyotaro written arcs start strong before fizzling out. Even if we assume that you are correct in your description of how the manga and anime compare, it doesn't refute anything he said.

I'm not sure how you can read Toyotaro's Zamasu arc and not conclude that he ruined the narrative and squandered the potential of the arc.

[Rakurai]

The ending of the F. Trunks arc was shit not because of Toyotarou, but because of Toriyama's outlines.

Using Zeno as a deus ex machina after making Merged Zamasu nigh-unbeatable is as shitty writing as it can get for a battle shonen like DB. Making Mai and F. Trunks settle in a timeline where another pair of them exist is a shitty resolution for a character who was supposed to be brought back for fanservice. Having two Zenos doesn't do anything to the plot of Super as a whole, the ToP could begin just as easily with one Zeno, and it's twice the irritation having two manchilds toddlers "wow" and "ooh" every time they see something cool. Notwithstanding Zeno is a dumbass character who goes against the entire hierarchy of the DB godhood to begin with. Both the anime and manga suffered from this. The potential of the arc was doomed from the very start.

And no, Toriyama being a gag writer doesn't excuse that poor mudball of a resolution.

[Rakurai]

Well, I guess one of the best things to come out of that shitty ending was this scene:



This is one of my favorite scenes of Goku showcasing his maturity and history with F. Trunks. To be able to say such words of encouragement to F. Trunks! Vegeta being Vegeta was also nice but not uncommon. This is the best of a resolution as one could get with what was given.

[GreatJaiyaman]

The ending of the F. Trunks arc was shit not because of Toyotarou, but because of Toriyama's outlines.

Using Zeno as a deus ex machina after making Merged Zamasu nigh-unbeatable is as shitty writing as it can get for a battle shonen like DB. Making Mai and F. Trunks settle in a timeline where another pair of them exist is a shitty resolution for a character who was supposed to be brought back for fanservice. Having two Zenos doesn't do anything to the plot of Super as a whole, the ToP could begin just as easily with one Zeno, and it's twice the irritation having two manchilds toddlers "wow" and "ooh" every time they see something cool. Notwithstanding Zeno is a dumbass character who goes against the entire hierarchy of the DB godhood to begin with. Both the anime and manga suffered from this. The potential of the arc was doomed from the very start.

And no, Toriyama being a gag writer doesn't excuse that poor mudball of a resolution.

I think everyone misses the point of Zeno wiping everything out at the end of that arc. In my opinion, I think Toriyama was trying to give weight to the next arc. It's one thing to be told how powerful Zeno is, it's another thing to see it first hand. Whether it was intentional or not, the ending of the Champa arc and the ending of the Trunks arc was both setting up the tournament of power. Zamasu was just a casualty of Zeno, so you could see how powerful Zeno is. Zamasu was immortal and even blue Vegito couldn't defeat him, so I think Toriyama was just intending to show you just how powerful Zeno was to raise the stakes for the tournament of power.

[IM21]

Toyo is actually pretty good at the finishing panels of an arc. I think his ending of AF is one of the better things he has ever done.

[Shineman]

I remember the previous 2 "sagas," yes. Both were executed on a level far above the anime's rendition of them and can stand on their own when compared to non-Toei-Dragonball works. I'd say the manga's previous 2 arcs could go up against any of the shit you find in Jump and win, while the Super anime is bad even being compared to just Dragonball Z, let alone other series.

If you are going to respond to his comment, at least you can do is give him a proper response to what he said than whatever this post is trying to add on. Aside from the obvious fact that gr did not once mentioned the anime (nor make any formal comparisons), it was clear in his message was hyperbolic (which he clarified, not that he needed too anyways).

If you have nothing to say, you have nothing to say.

Um I didn't mentioned the anime buddy maybe I exaggerated with the remember comment but still I just didn't liked some of the decision made in those arcs although I'm not gonna pretend that the manga is the worst thing in the world since they are things that I enjoyed such as the climax of FT trunks, Cabba and Jiren relationships with his master and GoD.

Don't worry about it. You're free to express some disinterest and/or dislike of the content presented in the manga. I personally think the final act with Jiren and the remaining Universe 7 warriors is perhaps the weakest part in the Tournament of Power in the manga. Perhaps I was expecting something too different, but hey, it is what it is.

As for your comment, here,

-The train sequence was fun, having less flurry punches and flat landscapes is a + in my book although it felt kinda unnecessary since it didn't do a good job hyping up Meru.

I shared the same sentiments with you and some other users; it doesn't really do a good job building Meru up, considering we just had that display from the previous chapter. We don't need another one to hammer home that Meru is skilled

I might also think the paneling during the train sequence was wasteful, boring and not engaging; then again, I think that entire part wasn't that interesting in the first place since it feels... slow? I don't know how to put it into words

[TKA]

If you are going to respond to his comment, at least you can do is give him a proper response to what he said than whatever this post is trying to add on. Aside from the obvious fact that gr did not once mentioned the anime (nor make any formal comparisons), it was clear in his message was hyperbolic (which he clarified, not that he needed too anyways).

If you have nothing to say, you have nothing to say.

Well, 2 things.

1. He started his post with a declarative statement that is to be taken at face value. If you don't engage with the first part of the statement, then you accept his premise as the accepted truth. It absolutely is not.

As usual The manga always have a good start then in the middle and end it goes from mediocre to terrible remember the previous 2 saga

This is not the accepted truth here, yet he made that as the snuck premise. It's a red herring debate tactic to make a point of contention a given. Allowing this assertion to go unchallenged changes the narrative.

2. You did the same damn thing you accused me of doing.

[prince212]

the point of Zeno wiping everything out at the end of that arc. In my opinion, I think Toriyama was trying to give weight to the next arc. It's one thing to be told how powerful Zeno is, it's another thing to see it first hand. Whether it was intentional or not, the ending of the Champa arc and the ending of the Trunks arc was both setting up the tournament of power. Zamasu was just a casualty of Zeno, so you could see how powerful Zeno is. Zamasu was immortal and even blue Vegito couldn't defeat him, so I think Toriyama was just intending to show you just how powerful Zeno was to raise the stakes for the tournament of power.

I agree , also the Zeno request a buddy and goku promising he’ll find somebody fits there , I’m fine with all that and I like it.
The only black hole on all that stuff is a timeline with 2 trunks , but that could be a weapon to be use in the future ....


Honestly I feel that all the people ( a lot ) that after the starting of this new arc are saying “ toyo starts well and then he goes down ...” , they are either negative a.f or they just wish that to happen , inside of those stupid manga-anime wars .
That theme of the arcs going down after the start is comun in all super mediums, and it’s only because of the lack in plot twists . T.o.p arc is an example , from the beginning we knew who was the guy to be beaten , and nothing change in the whole arc .

Toyo is actually pretty good at the finishing panels of an arc. I think his ending of AF is one of the better things he has ever done.

I’m taking that as a gag ? Who is gonna finish a fan work when a company hires you to do other stuff ?
I would like that AF done till the end too , but ... come on .

[Miracles]

As usual The manga always have a good start then in the middle and end it goes from mediocre to terrible remember the previous 2 saga so my expectations are really low for this saga anyway on to the review.

-Moro is intimidating with his soul sucking ability and I hope he keep this creepy aura instead of being Black 2.0.

-The train sequence was fun, having less flurry punches and flat landscapes is a + in my book although it felt kinda unnecessary since it didn't do a good job hyping up Meru.

-Goku sensing Moro is good way to introduce the main villain to the audience.

Yeah, Goku sensing Moro and having a surprised face gives shock value. I really hope Goku comments on Moro's battle power at the start of the next chapter. Agreed that the train situation was amusing, different from just having fisticuffs. However, I thought Meru damaging the ship without Vegeta realizing it was a good way to hype him up. Meru definitely has some mystery to him in motive and skill.

I have to disagree about the manga being mediocre in the middle and bad in the end. Zamas arc had Blue Goku vs merged Zamas, one of the best fights in all of Super, Vegeta using battle tactic with the red and blue switch, etc. The TOP didn't really have any visually appealing fights. However, from a writing standpoint it was good. The way Goku obtained Ultra Instinct with past teachings in the middle and UI Goku vs Jiren was decent. I think the last two arcs has been consistent with the story and sometimes surprises with dynamic battle scenes in the middle towards the end.

[Marlowe89]

I think that entire part wasn't that interesting in the first place since it feels... slow? I don't know how to put it into words

It feels that way because it's an extraneous setpiece, unfortunately.

Pretty setpieces mean nothing to me if they contribute nothing to the plot. Setpieces justify their existence when they move the story forward. Good action setpieces enhance the story's central themes and characterization. Truth is, there's a whole lot of nothing going on in this chapter.

Also, Merus is the personification of "*teleports behind you* nothing personal, kid". He's such a thoroughly uninteresting character. Jaco is an interesting character, so Jaco being there at all makes Merus look awfully mundane so far. Why would I be interested in a progression-killing train heist that doesn't establish anything about this amazing elite patrolman if I'm only enjoying Goku and Jaco's antics in the background, even when the main focus of that scene is supposed to be the guy whose only appeal is his superficial competence?

Anyway, it should get better since the characters are actually pursuing Moro now. Toyotaro is great when he's pushing towards things with real significance.