Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PFM18]

I consider anime as a different continuity of the movie (which in a way should be contradictory, after all the movie supposedly follows the anime and uses elements of it, but apparently Toriyama does not think so), and that is exactly why I compare SSB KK and SSBE with SSJ Broly , because they are of a continuity or vision in which Goku and Vegeta are stronger and we do not have to convert anything. is like comparing characters from different media. The difference is that the two media are supposedly canonical, so it's not like comparing GT and DBS characters for example.

Obviously it doesn't necessarily fit in either continuity, but we need a way to convert between them. In terms of the story, Goku and Vegeta in their strongest forms, weren't enough for SSJ Broly. It follows from that, that in the anime continuity, SSBE and SSBKK wouldn't be enough for normal SSJ Broly.

And I know that even SSB KK and SSBE are far from Broly's full power, I'm just saying that these two forms are stronger than the Broly SSJ (normal). In the script Gogeta forces Broly to use SSJ Full Power, but we're not fitting SSB KK and SSBE in the movie, we're just comparing the power that Broly showed with the power these two transformations showed. Unless the Broly movie is adapted for anime and these two transformations are used, we do not have to convert the movie to anime just to compare the power of the characters

I don't see any reason to believe these forms are stronger than SSJ Broly. Even if we consider Movie SSB's~anime SSB's<<SSBE/SSBKK, they would STILL be weaker than SSJ Broly, because:

SSJ Gogeta>=SSJ Broly>>Base Gogeta>SSB Goku/Vegeta

is clearly the case in the movie. For this to be the case, SSJ Gogeta has to be more than 50x stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta individually.

[Hugo Boss]

Base Gogeta>SSB Goku/Vegeta

I’m not sure what makes you think that. Base Gogeta did nothing but avoid Broly.

[PFM18]

Base Gogeta>SSB Goku/Vegeta

I’m not sure what makes you think that. Base Gogeta did nothing but avoid Broly.

He's able to easily dodge ki blasts from Broly. SSB Goku or Vegeta couldn't do the same.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I consider anime as a different continuity of the movie (which in a way should be contradictory, after all the movie supposedly follows the anime and uses elements of it, but apparently Toriyama does not think so), and that is exactly why I compare SSB KK and SSBE with SSJ Broly , because they are of a continuity or vision in which Goku and Vegeta are stronger and we do not have to convert anything. is like comparing characters from different media. The difference is that the two media are supposedly canonical, so it's not like comparing GT and DBS characters for example.

Obviously it doesn't necessarily fit in either continuity, but we need a way to convert between them. In terms of the story, Goku and Vegeta in their strongest forms, weren't enough for SSJ Broly. It follows from that, that in the anime continuity, SSBE and SSBKK wouldn't be enough for normal SSJ Broly.

And I know that even SSB KK and SSBE are far from Broly's full power, I'm just saying that these two forms are stronger than the Broly SSJ (normal). In the script Gogeta forces Broly to use SSJ Full Power, but we're not fitting SSB KK and SSBE in the movie, we're just comparing the power that Broly showed with the power these two transformations showed. Unless the Broly movie is adapted for anime and these two transformations are used, we do not have to convert the movie to anime just to compare the power of the characters

I don't see any reason to believe these forms are stronger than SSJ Broly. Even if we consider Movie SSB's~anime SSB's<<SSBE/SSBKK, they would STILL be weaker than SSJ Broly, because:

SSJ Gogeta>=SSJ Broly>>Base Gogeta>SSB Goku/Vegeta

is clearly the case in the movie. For this to be the case, SSJ Gogeta has to be more than 50x stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta individually.

In Toriyama's continuity, in which SSB is the strongest transformation, Broly SSJ is superior. But in the anime's continuity, in which the most powerful forms of Goku and Vegeta are far beyond Blue, nothing indicates that Broly SSJ would be more powerful. As I said, we do not have to convert anything, the vision of TOEI in relation to the power of the two Saiyans is different and that is what we are considering in comparison

And actually, Goku was able to counter several Ki Blasts of a completely infuriated Broly after turning into SSJ (Goku and Vegeta also deflected from various attacks by Broly, so Base Gogeta did not do much more than them). And SSJ Broly was completely dominated by SSJ Gogeta, (so he turned into SSJ Full Power), I do not know why you're saying that the two have the same level. And if you want to consider multipliers, then you'll have to consider that SSJ Broly is only 5x more powerful than SSB

[ZombieVito]

Base Gogeta>SSB Goku/Vegeta

I’m not sure what makes you think that. Base Gogeta did nothing but avoid Broly.

He's able to easily dodge ki blasts from Broly. SSB Goku or Vegeta couldn't do the same.

This really doesn't mean much tbh.

To give an example, Piccolo was able to easily dodge Frost's attacks in the Champa tournament and he's obviously much weaker than him.

[PFM18]

I’m not sure what makes you think that. Base Gogeta did nothing but avoid Broly.

He's able to easily dodge ki blasts from Broly. SSB Goku or Vegeta couldn't do the same.

This really doesn't mean much tbh.

To give an example, Piccolo was able to easily dodge Frost's attacks in the Champa tournament and he's obviously much weaker than him.

I mean, I frankly don't see how this is really a counterpoint. This would only make sense as a rebuttal if I claimed that Base Gogeta>SSJ Broly because Gogeta was able to dodge his blasts. But I never claimed Base Gogeta's superiority to Broly, just his fusees. Goku and Vegeta as SSB did not easily dodge Broly's ki blasts, so it is a natural assumption to say Base Gogeta is stronger than them.

If anything, it corroborates my point. Because Base Gogeta, like Piccolo, was able to dodge attacks from somebody stronger than him. (Since of course, SSJ Gogeta and SSJ Broly were around the same level.) SSB Goku and Vegeta weren't even close enough to do that

[Green]

We can doubt Gogeta's base feats since there have been numerous istances of weaker characters somewhat holding their own like he did (hell, Goku does the same with Ikari Broly), but when looking at the bigger picture, i.e.

- Kefla overpowering SSG Goku in the anime
- Vegetto blowing MZ up in the manga

one can't ignore that Fusions are always portrayed that strong in DBS.

[ZombieVito]

We can doubt Gogeta's base feats since there have been numerous istances of weaker characters somewhat holding their own like he did (hell, Goku does the same with Ikari Broly), but when looking at the bigger picture, i.e.

- Kefla overpowering SSG Goku in the anime
- Vegetto blowing MZ up in the manga

one can't ignore that Fusions are always portrayed that strong in DBS.

Kefla overpowered a tired SSG Goku and Vegetto caught Zamasu off guard. Zamasu even called base Vegetto trash.

[PFM18]

We can doubt Gogeta's base feats since there have been numerous istances of weaker characters somewhat holding their own like he did (hell, Goku does the same with Ikari Broly), but when looking at the bigger picture, i.e.

- Kefla overpowering SSG Goku in the anime
- Vegetto blowing MZ up in the manga

one can't ignore that Fusions are always portrayed that strong in DBS.

The point of contention isn't that Base Gogeta is weaker than Broly. Obviously Base Gogeta is much weaker than SSJ Broly. That doesn't really address the matter. Base Gogeta is implied to be stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta because he was able to easily dodge Broly's ki blasts while Goku snd Vegeta couldn't.

[emperior]

We can doubt Gogeta's base feats since there have been numerous istances of weaker characters somewhat holding their own like he did (hell, Goku does the same with Ikari Broly), but when looking at the bigger picture, i.e.

- Kefla overpowering SSG Goku in the anime
- Vegetto blowing MZ up in the manga

one can't ignore that Fusions are always portrayed that strong in DBS.

The point of contention isn't that Base Gogeta is weaker than Broly. Obviously Base Gogeta is much weaker than SSJ Broly. That doesn't really address the matter. Base Gogeta is implied to be stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta because he was able to easily dodge Broly's ki blasts while Goku snd Vegeta couldn't.

I wouldn’t look too much into it considering how base/SS Goku didn’t fare much worse than SSG Vegeta against Ikari Broly.

[ZombieVito]

We can doubt Gogeta's base feats since there have been numerous istances of weaker characters somewhat holding their own like he did (hell, Goku does the same with Ikari Broly), but when looking at the bigger picture, i.e.

- Kefla overpowering SSG Goku in the anime
- Vegetto blowing MZ up in the manga

one can't ignore that Fusions are always portrayed that strong in DBS.

The point of contention isn't that Base Gogeta is weaker than Broly. Obviously Base Gogeta is much weaker than SSJ Broly. That doesn't really address the matter. Base Gogeta is implied to be stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta because he was able to easily dodge Broly's ki blasts while Goku snd Vegeta couldn't.

I wouldn’t look too much into it considering how base/SS Goku didn’t fare much worse than SSG Vegeta against Ikari Broly.

Hey, you are right. I completely forgot Base/SS Goku vs Ikari Broly was a thing.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Well at bare minimum base Gogeta has to be >> ssg Goku considering how broly easily trashed ssb Goku and Vegeta while ssj Gogeta had a clear edge over ssj Broly. Also we don’t know how much broly powered up after Goku and Vegeta ran away or during the fight with ssj Gogeta

[Green]

We can doubt Gogeta's base feats since there have been numerous istances of weaker characters somewhat holding their own like he did (hell, Goku does the same with Ikari Broly), but when looking at the bigger picture, i.e.

- Kefla overpowering SSG Goku in the anime
- Vegetto blowing MZ up in the manga

one can't ignore that Fusions are always portrayed that strong in DBS.

The point of contention isn't that Base Gogeta is weaker than Broly. Obviously Base Gogeta is much weaker than SSJ Broly. That doesn't really address the matter. Base Gogeta is implied to be stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta because he was able to easily dodge Broly's ki blasts while Goku snd Vegeta couldn't.

I don't think you got what I meant, so let me rephrase it a bit.

Gogeta evades Broly and his ki blasts in the movie before transforming.
Conclusion: Gogeta is closer to Broly than both his fusees.

Now one could argue that feats like this are inconclusive since in modern DB, weaker characters holding their own like he did is not unheard of. Heck, it happens in the movie with Goku vs Ikari Broly.

But when similar istances happen across other medias with Kefla and Vegetto, chalking all those up to errors/headcanoning our way out isn't the most objective approach. It's not that Gogeta is implied to be stronger than SSB: it's that fusions are consistently shown to be ridicolously strong in base form.

[Hugo Boss]

Base Gogeta>SSB Goku/Vegeta

I’m not sure what makes you think that. Base Gogeta did nothing but avoid Broly.

He's able to easily dodge ki blasts from Broly. SSB Goku or Vegeta couldn't do the same.

Dodging doesn’t mean anything concrete. Goku easily deflected SS Broly’s ki blasts as well. When Vegeta joined they even switched between defensive and offensive while Gogeta went SS to match Broly.

[AvatarReiko]

How can Base Gogeta be weaker than his fusees though? Him being weaker would be illogical and does not make any sense. Gogeta is literally Goku and Vegeta combined, so could not possibly be weaker than either one on their own. Am I missing something here?

[RecolorSaiyan]

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1079579748899016705



Ok yeah, I'm just gonna ignore powerscaling promo material from now one. Even in the anime, goku was totally shitting bricks at the notion of fighting Boohan and Toei tried to wank Goku to no end in that arc

[Sora Saiyan]

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1079579748899016705



Ok yeah, I'm just gonna ignore powerscaling promo material from now one. Even in the anime, goku was totally shitting bricks at the notion of fighting Boohan and Toei tried to wank Goku to no end in that arc

Yeah that’s pretty terrible. It calls Buu Bibidi’s creation, which we now know not to be the case, and placing Buuhan on par with SSJ3 Goku is insanely stupid. If it was referring to Super manga SSJ3 Goku this could be argued, but it really doesn’t seem to be.

[Hugo Boss]

How can Base Gogeta be weaker than his fusees though? Him being weaker would be illogical and does not make any sense. Gogeta is literally Goku and Vegeta combined, so could not possibly be weaker than either one on their own. Am I missing something here?

This is in response for what? Can you elaborate?

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1079579748899016705

Wow, Shueisha really did it. Seems their authority overwrites whatever Toriyama tried to convey.

[BrolySSJL]

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1079579748899016705



Ok yeah, I'm just gonna ignore powerscaling promo material from now one. Even in the anime, goku was totally shitting bricks at the notion of fighting Boohan and Toei tried to wank Goku to no end in that arc

What the heck?

God, they are changing everything without any sense.

[Glen300]

How can Base Gogeta be weaker than his fusees though? Him being weaker would be illogical and does not make any sense. Gogeta is literally Goku and Vegeta combined, so could not possibly be weaker than either one on their own. Am I missing something here?

Depends on how you are measuring Gogeta's strength.

if Base Gogeta = (Base Goku + Base Vegeta) than the argument from some is SSB Goku or Vegeta > (Base Goku + Base Vegeta).

However, its been established than Gogeta isn't simply Goku + Vegeta, but Goku + Vegeta plus an unknown multiplier.