Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Miracles » Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:21 pm

Vegeta developing by lowering his pride and finally admitting Goku being number one does not mean he would stop trying to surpass him.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by zarmack » Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:00 pm

Miracles wrote:Vegeta developing by lowering his pride and finally admitting Goku being number one does not mean he would stop trying to surpass him.
Apparently, many idiots in the fandom think Vegeta should have turned into yet another modest background character with no ambitions of any kind after the Buu arc :roll: . Idk how anyone could find that appealing, let alone in character.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by A Man named RJ » Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:34 pm

zarmack wrote:
Miracles wrote:Vegeta developing by lowering his pride and finally admitting Goku being number one does not mean he would stop trying to surpass him.
Apparently, many idiots in the fandom think Vegeta should have turned into yet another modest background character with no ambitions of any kind after the Buu arc :roll: . Idk how anyone could find that appealing, let alone in character.

Literally nobody thinks or wants this. This is the flimsiest strawman ever, and you should be ashamed for even writing it out. Nobody has any issues with characters having ambitions. People take issue with Vegeta's current actions and justifications running directly into the face of previous development. and reqiring a retcon 10 years after the fact to even work. If you're going to give Vegeta a reason to fight, his REASONS need to change, and the story of his reasons would change too, which in and of itself would make the character, and overall plot of the main series eons more dynamic.

Just because Toriyama is a bad writier, and moved his reformed characters to the sidelines doesn't mean that's what he should be doing or what fans actually want. because throwing characters away at random is not good writing. - which is exactly why it's the basis of so much ridicule. And because He's not writing the main plot out anymore there is literally no reason not to find a different motivation and use for Vegeta, and the other neglected characters. Which would be a million times more fascinating than anything that The Goku and Vegeta show I mean DB Super came up with.

The fact that you could write that unironically, and call people who dont like Vegeta's flagrantly backwards development "Many idiots" it just boggles the mind..... Like do you realize that ambitions and motives can change?
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by emperior » Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:39 pm

A Man named RJ wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
A Man named RJ wrote:
Actually, that depends on whether I like how Toriyama handled his own ending too. Which (gasp) I really don't. What if i said the entire last 2 chapters ultimately felt retrogressive. What if I said I would have considered that last line to be equally as egregious as I consider Super's Vegeta? And what if i said, that even WITH that line in there, that wouldn't necessarily make Vegeta as antagonistic toward Goku as he is in Super?

Maybe i've been watching too much Dragon ball Dissection, but honestly, yeah, A lot of things Toriyama does in the end of his series feel like a mistake. There could have been a far more cathartic, and fitting ending to such a long series than Goku abandoning his family to train some random kid. across the world, when Goku can move to anybody's ki signature in the blink of an eye.
That line is only in the Kanzenban ending, which came out around... 2004-ish I wanna say? Anyway, the original Tankobon ending doesn't include that line from Vegeta.
I thought he looked a little............modern when i went back and double-checked. it's not in the anime nor is it in the manga I read way back when.

So all the people jumping down my throat over this, I knew I wasnt mis-remembering. I didnt "Misinterpret" Vegeta's character arc. I'm getting stumped here by something Toriyama came up with like 10 years later to reset Vegeta's character. That's outlandishly dumb. I don't appreciate Retcons doing things like that. I'm also not going to interpret this any other way from here on. It's a retcon. Toriyama's modern-era retcons SUCK (Dragon Ball Minus) and the franchise needs to move the hell on.

TL;DR I'm not going to mangle my understanding of Vegeta's character arc during the time it was written, because Toriyama decided to add a throw-away line in a reprint of his manga 10 years later. Nobody does that shit with the star wars rereleases, I'm not doing it with Dragon Ball.
At this point they really have nothing interesting to do with Vegeta, and just keep him as Goku’s sidekick because he’s popular.
For some reason Toriyama decided to backpedal on Vegeta’s characterisation to keep him as Goku’s eternal rival whose main goal in life is to catch up to him, even though after the battle with Kid Buu up to the original ending of the manga there were no suggestions that Vegeta was still that fixated on Goku.
Super even pointed that out in the first few episodes where Vegeta comments how he won’t continue to be the number 2 forever. Which is cool, I guess, as it makes sense for Vegeta to keep on growing stronger, but I don’t like how he was characterised in later arcs (apart from Future Trunks’ arc, which did a good job with him) to still be so damn envious of Goku. The rivalry being one-sided certainly doesn’t help.
In Broly he isn’t as concerned with Goku as he is with Freeza right now, so that’s definitely a plus, but I wish they could do something more interesting with Vegeta because right now it’s like he’s on life support due to how popular he is and because he’s a Saiyan.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by A Man named RJ » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:03 pm

emperior wrote: At this point they really have nothing interesting to do with Vegeta, and just keep him as Goku’s sidekick because he’s popular.
For some reason Toriyama decided to backpedal on Vegeta’s characterisation to keep him as Goku’s eternal rival whose main goal in life is to catch up to him, even though after the battle with Kid Buu up to the original ending of the manga there were no suggestions that Vegeta was still that fixated on Goku.
Super even pointed that out in the first few episodes where Vegeta comments how he won’t continue to be the number 2 forever. Which is cool, I guess, as it makes sense for Vegeta to keep on growing stronger, but I don’t like how he was characterised in later arcs (apart from Future Trunks’ arc, which did a good job with him) to still be so damn envious of Goku. The rivalry being one-sided certainly doesn’t help.
In Broly he isn’t as concerned with Goku as he is with Freeza right now, so that’s definitely a plus, but I wish they could do something more interesting with Vegeta because right now it’s like he’s on life support due to how popular he is and because he’s a Saiyan.

They could start making adjustments to the status quo, and it would start by what I think is the biggest missed opprutunity in the revival era. Giving humans a fighting chance with unique god forms, and abilities. For the life of me, i have no idea why God forms are this SSJ-exclusive thing, considering we know other races can become gods and demon-clansmen. Tien who wants to be a strong martial artist should be striving for God forms, Not wallowing in his "Human limitations" It makes everything about the Saiyans which I believe only happened because the Freeza arc was the most popular arc, and it dealt with the story of Saiyan heritage. And it should have been left there. But seriously, does this make any sense to you? These beyond super-human humans have racial limitations that prevent them from keeping up with the Saiyans, even though a huge chunk of the power in this franchise is control OF KI which should be limitless given training and discipline. Why are the humans so damn far behind? And why are they behind a race of people who went extinct because they were so weak as a collective? it's a contradiction. It seems like the saiyans are so special, not because they actually were, but because GOKU happens to be a Saiyan.

This takes us back to how it could Help Vegeta. Vegeta could see more rivals in more characters than Just Goku, and God abilities being relatively magical could create more dynamic and interesting villains for the heroes to have to fight. Dragon ball is basic, and so every fight is just a slug fest. The standouts use multiple characters and/or strategic fighting - this is something Shonen manga have learned post-dragon ball. Dragon Ball by comparison is stale because despite the world being very Magical, Magic isnt ever really used for some odd reason. Giving vegeta (and most of the cast) More options in fighting makes them all viable as warriors. it also allows for more threats to pop up without you wondering "How they got so strong" and those threats create stories. Those stories give way to character growth. There is NO reason for Dragon ball to be as stagnant and bad as it currently is. And the people who are complacent in this are seriously missing out on all the great opprotunities.


Universe Survival TRIED to do it, but the way characters were just suddenly able to compete was pretty contrived, and random.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by zarmack » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:42 pm

emperior wrote:
A Man named RJ wrote:
Doctor. wrote: That line is only in the Kanzenban ending, which came out around... 2004-ish I wanna say? Anyway, the original Tankobon ending doesn't include that line from Vegeta.
I thought he looked a little............modern when i went back and double-checked. it's not in the anime nor is it in the manga I read way back when.

So all the people jumping down my throat over this, I knew I wasnt mis-remembering. I didnt "Misinterpret" Vegeta's character arc. I'm getting stumped here by something Toriyama came up with like 10 years later to reset Vegeta's character. That's outlandishly dumb. I don't appreciate Retcons doing things like that. I'm also not going to interpret this any other way from here on. It's a retcon. Toriyama's modern-era retcons SUCK (Dragon Ball Minus) and the franchise needs to move the hell on.

TL;DR I'm not going to mangle my understanding of Vegeta's character arc during the time it was written, because Toriyama decided to add a throw-away line in a reprint of his manga 10 years later. Nobody does that shit with the star wars rereleases, I'm not doing it with Dragon Ball.
At this point they really have nothing interesting to do with Vegeta, and just keep him as Goku’s sidekick because he’s popular.
For some reason Toriyama decided to backpedal on Vegeta’s characterisation to keep him as Goku’s eternal rival whose main goal in life is to catch up to him, even though after the battle with Kid Buu up to the original ending of the manga there were no suggestions that Vegeta was still that fixated on Goku.
Super even pointed that out in the first few episodes where Vegeta comments how he won’t continue to be the number 2 forever. Which is cool, I guess, as it makes sense for Vegeta to keep on growing stronger, but I don’t like how he was characterised in later arcs (apart from Future Trunks’ arc, which did a good job with him) to still be so damn envious of Goku. The rivalry being one-sided certainly doesn’t help.
In Broly he isn’t as concerned with Goku as he is with Freeza right now, so that’s definitely a plus, but I wish they could do something more interesting with Vegeta because right now it’s like he’s on life support due to how popular he is and because he’s a Saiyan.
This is why a U6 Sadala arc needs to happen (preferably with Vegeta as the center character like Future Trunks was in the Black arc). It would give Vegeta something major to do and fight for that doesn't directly involve Goku. Have him live up to his promise to Cabba.

And also, they need to follow through with Freeza's goal to overthrow Zeno and the Gods (which was brought up in the ToP arc), because it would suck if he degenerated into another gag villain.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by zarmack » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:51 pm

A Man named RJ wrote:\ Why are the humans so damn far behind? And why are they behind a race of people who went extinct because they were so weak as a collective? it's a contradiction. It seems like the saiyans are so special, not because they actually were, but because GOKU happens to be a Saiyan.
The Saiyans were killed off because Freeza was afraid of them and what they were capable of. Its because they were special is why Freeza & Beerus had them killed (and its not just Goku). They (and the Angels) are the only race in Dragonball with infinite potential/no limits.

And even in Early DB, the Humans were shown to be relatively weak compared to the non-Human characters. This applies even to Tien, who's talents were attributed to his descent from the 3-Eyed People.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by A Man named RJ » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:15 pm

zarmack wrote:
A Man named RJ wrote:\ Why are the humans so damn far behind? And why are they behind a race of people who went extinct because they were so weak as a collective? it's a contradiction. It seems like the saiyans are so special, not because they actually were, but because GOKU happens to be a Saiyan.
The Saiyans were killed off because Freeza was afraid of them and what they were capable of. Its because they were special is why Freeza & Beerus had them killed (and its not just Goku). They (and the Angels) are the only race in Dragonball with infinite potential/no limits.

And even in Early DB, the Humans were shown to be relatively weak compared to the non-Human characters. This applies even to Tien, who's talents were attributed to his descent from the 3-Eyed People.
Lets deconstruct this for a second:
The Saiyans were killed off because Freeza was afraid of them
The saiyans could do a ton of damage if they bothered to gang up on the freeza force. This was likely the original intention of his disease. Still i can accept this. Freeza had a bad feeling as so he genocided them because of a legend and a fea they would gang up on him.
Its because they were special is why Freeza & Beerus had them killed
No. I'm not taking this. I'm not going to use a retcon that didnt exist until friggin 2015 as a device for why the humans arent as strong as they could be in the series 20 years ago. Toriyama didn't have any of this planned. The guy never even planned his weekly releases. Beerus wanted them destroyed because of META reasons. The saiyans are popular. The saiyans are popular because Goku and vegeta and the Freeza arc (which is when the manga was most popular). And because of this, the writers was able to slip in that Beerus found them too stronk too. It has nothing to do with the writing. it has nothing to do with the story. And it CERTAINLY doesnt explain why the humans can't keep up.

Same with the angels.
[They (and the Angels) are the only race in Dragonball with infinite potential/no limits.]

What the hell kind of stipulation is this? This is just a case of the writers trying to do everything to make Goku special, and power levels making no sense after the Saiyan Arc. I also don't buy it because if the Saiyans were as special as they supposedly are, then Vegeta, a Saiyan elite would not be on par with Cui when he was introduced. This is more a result of power-ballooning than anything to do with physiology. The same thing happens to character traits. Goku used to be kind and considerate. He was fairly selfish, but he acted for the good of the world, and his friends and family. He kills general Black because he's evil. When Goku gains Saiyan heritage through plot, Suddenly all of his negative attributes are amplified, and its suddenly "Because he's a Saiyan" and he's been like that all along?


Also, As far as I'm aware there is NO official source that says Saiyans and saiyans alone are the only Human/Mortal race that have unlimited potential. This sounds like one of ItsAnimeGirl's clickbait theories rather than an actual argument. Espicially since growing Ki is something that literally every race can do to ridiculous degrees. It is what made the characters special, and super-human in the first place There is no reason In-Universe for the Saiyans to be so special outside of inflating the value of the Super Saiyan transformations. They are special because they're popular. They're special because Vegeta action figures and fighting games make everyone shell out money. They're special because it was Dragon Ball's most popular story arc.
This applies even to Tien, who's talents were attributed to his descent from the 3-Eyed People.
That's another dumb retcon from the mid 2000s. Thats not at all in the original source material, and considering the humans of Early Dragon Ball, as well as the serie's direct inspirations from Journey to the West, Tienshinhan (and even Goku) fits right in. Again, I bring this back to Star Wars, with those horrid CGI abominations. As much as Lucas says he wanted this in "all along," It's just not true. these bad Guidebook entries dont serve the series anything asode from random lore tidbits Toriyama just randomly felt like making up when it was produced. We have cat people, talking dinosaurs, werewolves, witches, Mafia Rabbits who can breathe on the Moon, and 300 year old hermits on talking turtles complete with pigs and whatever Puar is going to a school for transformation by comparison Tien or Chiaotzu don't at all stand out.

I'm very careful when approaching this topic to keep in mind when things were written. Because we need to remember, Dragon ball was long done when a lot of this information came out. All it really served to do was keep a passing interest in the Brand, so it wouldn't lose money.
_______________________________

Dragon ball becomes a Vapid shell of it's former self sometime around when the Super Saiyan transformation appears. It's one of those vapid, entirely aesthetic transformations that you'd find in a Magical Girl series - Which is precidcely what Kondo Yu was all about. Suddenly having the most hair-changes made you more worth-while. Not improvement of the self. Not the improvement of one's characr, and personal growth. And we all fell for it. I think this boils down the point as to why so many people (myself included) really dont Like the Z half.

I think it's actually THIS reason that all other characters become worthless. Yu's Shoujo experience has its upsides, I love how Bulma becomes a more fleshed out, and active cast-member during his run as editor. (regardless of her nonsensical relationship with the genocidal warlord, Vegeta) But I fear the spiritual and mystic aspects of the series take an irreparable hit. And it's these mystic ideals where the other characters get their mojo from. No mysticism, no more need for them. and replacing it is this horrid super saiyan spam that Toriyama even seems to regret.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by zarmack » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:22 pm

A Man named RJ wrote:
zarmack wrote:
A Man named RJ wrote:\ Why are the humans so damn far behind? And why are they behind a race of people who went extinct because they were so weak as a collective? it's a contradiction. It seems like the saiyans are so special, not because they actually were, but because GOKU happens to be a Saiyan.
The Saiyans were killed off because Freeza was afraid of them and what they were capable of. Its because they were special is why Freeza & Beerus had them killed (and its not just Goku). They (and the Angels) are the only race in Dragonball with infinite potential/no limits.

And even in Early DB, the Humans were shown to be relatively weak compared to the non-Human characters. This applies even to Tien, who's talents were attributed to his descent from the 3-Eyed People.
Lets deconstruct this for a second:
The Saiyans were killed off because Freeza was afraid of them
The saiyans could do a ton of damage if they bothered to gang up on the freeza force. This was likely the original intention of his disease. Still i can accept this. Freeza had a bad feeling as so he genocided them because of a legend and a fea they would gang up on him.
Its because they were special is why Freeza & Beerus had them killed
No. I'm not taking this. I'm not going to use a retcon that didnt exist until friggin 2015 as a device for why the humans arent as strong as they could be in the series 20 years ago. Toriyama didn't have any of this planned. The guy never even planned his weekly releases. Beerus wanted them destroyed because of META reasons. The saiyans are popular. The saiyans are popular because Goku and vegeta and the Freeza arc (which is when the manga was most popular). And because of this, the writers was able to slip in that Beerus found them too stronk too. It has nothing to do with the writing. it has nothing to do with the story. And it CERTAINLY doesnt explain why the humans can't keep up.

Same with the angels.
[They (and the Angels) are the only race in Dragonball with infinite potential/no limits.]

What the hell kind of stipulation is this? This is just a case of the writers trying to do everything to make Goku special, and power levels making no sense after the Saiyan Arc. I also don't buy it because if the Saiyans were as special as they supposedly are, then Vegeta, a Saiyan elite would not be on par with Cui when he was introduced. This is more a result of power-ballooning than anything to do with physiology. The same thing happens to character traits. Goku used to be kind and considerate. He was fairly selfish, but he acted for the good of the world, and his friends and family. He kills general Black because he's evil. When Goku gains Saiyan heritage through plot, Suddenly all of his negative attributes are amplified, and its suddenly "Because he's a Saiyan" and he's been like that all along?


Also, As far as I'm aware there is NO official source that says Saiyans and saiyans alone are the only Human/Mortal race that have unlimited potential. This sounds like one of ItsAnimeGirl's clickbait theories rather than an actual argument. Espicially since growing Ki is something that literally every race can do to ridiculous degrees. It is what made the characters special, and super-human in the first place There is no reason In-Universe for the Saiyans to be so special outside of inflating the value of the Super Saiyan transformations. They are special because they're popular. They're special because Vegeta action figures and fighting games make everyone shell out money. They're special because it was Dragon Ball's most popular story arc.
This applies even to Tien, who's talents were attributed to his descent from the 3-Eyed People.
That's another dumb retcon from the mid 2000s. Thats not at all in the original source material, and considering the humans of Early Dragon Ball, as well as the serie's direct inspirations from Journey to the West, Tienshinhan (and even Goku) fits right in. Again, I bring this back to Star Wars, with those horrid CGI abominations. As much as Lucas says he wanted this in "all along," It's just not true. these bad Guidebook entries dont serve the series anything asode from random lore tidbits Toriyama just randomly felt like making up when it was produced. We have cat people, talking dinosaurs, werewolves, witches, Mafia Rabbits who can breathe on the Moon, and 300 year old hermits on talking turtles complete with pigs and whatever Puar is going to a school for transformation by comparison Tien or Chiaotzu don't at all stand out.

I'm very careful when approaching this topic to keep in mind when things were written. Because we need to remember, Dragon ball was long done when a lot of this information came out. All it really served to do was keep a passing interest in the Brand, so it wouldn't lose money.
_______________________________

Dragon ball becomes a Vapid shell of it's former self sometime around when the Super Saiyan transformation appears. It's one of those vapid, entirely aesthetic transformations that you'd find in a Magical Girl series - Which is precidcely what Kondo Yu was all about. Suddenly having the most hair-changes made you more worth-while. Not improvement of the self. Not the improvement of one's characr, and personal growth. And we all fell for it. I think this boils down the point as to why so many people (myself included) really dont Like the Z half.

I think it's actually THIS reason that all other characters become worthless. Yu's Shoujo experience has its upsides, I love how Bulma becomes a more fleshed out, and active cast-member during his run as editor. (regardless of her nonsensical relationship with the genocidal warlord, Vegeta) But I fear the spiritual and mystic aspects of the series take an irreparable hit. And it's these mystic ideals where the other characters get their mojo from. No mysticism, no more need for them. and replacing it is this horrid super saiyan spam that Toriyama even seems to regret.
You are in serious denial about this franchise.

1. Even before Beerus was introduced, it was laid out in the original manga itself that Freeza's fear of the Saiyan race's potential is what drove his fear of the them, suggesting that they were intended to be seen as inherently special. No other race was ever stated to have this kind of potential in the Original manga (and this was before the SSJ transformation was introduced). Another detail you forgot was that Freeza's elite army consist of soldiers who were mutants/prodigies of their races, which was why Vegeta didn't stood out much in power (this was stated in the source material itself).

2. Even in Early DB, Goku was portrayed as naturally more talented than everyone else around him (with feats like him mastering abilities in a short time that took others decades or even centuries to learn), and its never suggested to be from any mystical or spiritual values (which lead characters like Oolong to speculate as early as the RRA arc that Goku was an alien, pointed out by Misare Fusions). All the Saiyan saga did was finally give a reason why.

3. It is flat out stated in the original manga around the 22nd TB itself that Tien's talents stem from his non-human aspects, and was presented as a natural prodigy among the humans.

4. The idea that everyone has equal potential/talent with Ki was never a thing in Early DB (and has nothing to support it), and it seems like some nonsense you made up to vent your hate of the Saiyan characters in the series.

5. The idea that Kid Goku in Early DB was more heroic than he was as an adult is the biggest piece of contrarian nonsense I have ever read. Idk what show you watched but that doesn't sound like DB First of all, Kid Goku did not act for the good of the world or his family (which he didn't even have in the original series). He would mostly ignore bad guys unless they attacked him, and he didn't even take the RRA seriously until Tao killed that Native American guy (forgot his name). Before then, Goku and pals were mainly out for the DBs, not to save the world. Whenever Kid Goku took a villain seriously, it was because he was motivated by revenge and/or anger, not "justice" or the "good of the world". He morality never goes beyond "don't hurt my friends". Kid Goku was hardly kind and considerate (even by comparison), especially with all the trollish shit he use to do. And I don't recall Kid Goku ever doing anything as heroic as sacrificing himself to get rid of an world-ending villain (like Raditz and Cell).

6. Even in Early DB, the Humans (outside of the tournament arcs), were never actually useful. Krillin did virtually nothing to stop the RRA and got killed off at the start of the Piccolo saga, Yamcha was essentially a joke since day one (even as a villain), Tien (despite being Goku's equal in the 22nd TB) immediately becomes just another useless ally with no victories nor development after his run as the main Villain was over, and Roshi after the 21st doesn't do much either. The only truly useful Human character was Bulma, and this also applies to the other series. At least in Z, characters other than Goku actually get to make a difference and have development that matters. Even Mr. Satan in the Buu arc objectively accomplishes more than the most of the Human characters did in Early DB.

These and many other reason are why me and many other fans :roll: whenever people overrate Early DB compared to Z.

7. You like many other Early DB fanboys seem to be taking that series too seriously. Spritiual/mystical values and themes was never what made its characters what they are (even the Journey to The West inspiration at the start seems to be thin at best, as pointed out by Misare Fusion of Dragonball Dissection). Its was mainly a gag/adventure martial arts story with some science-fantasy elements and no intended message that gradually got more serious as it went on.

8. You failed to give any examples of how power levels stop making since after the Saiyan arc.

9. Your final complaint was just plain false. Claiming Goku going SSJ for the 1st time (a transformation initially unlocked through some emotional trauma) with a purely cosmetic change is pure bullshit. Goku doesn't even act the same for the remainder of the arc after unlocking it (right down to his basic mannerisms). This is Goku after coming to terms and embracing (in his own way) the fact that he comes from a race of genocidal barbarians, Goku after being pushed over-the-edge by Freeza, Goku forfilling a prophecy with 2 arcs of build up. Its only once Goten and Present Trunks come in is when SSJ becomes meaningless.

Much of your complaints come across as butthurt over the fact that the your favorite Human characters didn't get enough shine compared to the Saiyans (who are for the most part objectively more interesting).

PS. The Daizenshuu guides were produced just one month after the original manga ended (and when the Z anime was still running). Hardly a product of any decades later retcons, since the original manga was still fresh in Toriyama's mind when they were produced.
A Man named RJ wrote:
No mysticism, no more need for them. and replacing it is this horrid super saiyan spam that Toriyama even seems to regret.
Sounds like projection on your part.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by A Man named RJ » Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:15 am

zarmack wrote: You are in serious denial about this franchise.

1. Even before Beerus was introduced, it was laid out in the original manga itself that Freeza's fear of the Saiyan race's potential is what drove his fear of the them, suggesting that they were intended to be seen as inherently special. No other race was ever stated to have this kind of potential in the Original manga (and this was before the SSJ transformation was introduced). Another detail you forgot was that Freeza's elite army consist of soldiers who were mutants/prodigies of their races, which was why Vegeta didn't stood out much in power (this was stated in the source material itself).
He feared their potential =/= your UNLIMITED potential nonsense. Also You realize Vegeta would also be a "Mutant or prodigy under the same criteria.
2. Even in Early DB, Goku was portrayed as naturally more talented than everyone else around him (with feats like him mastering abilities in a short time that took others decades or even centuries to learn), and its never suggested to be from any mystical or spiritual values (which lead characters like Oolong to speculate as early as the RRA arc that Goku was an alien, pointed out by Misare Fusions). All the Saiyan saga did was finally give a reason why.
Nobody has an issue with Goku holding an edge over his allies, the issue is with him having such an insurmanoutably massive gap ahead of them even though we're at the series's power-ceiling. and his friends just gave up.
It is flat out stated in the original manga around the 22nd TB itself that Tien's talents stem from his non-human aspects, and was presented as a natural prodigy among the humans.

Aliens in Dragon Ball are considered "Humans" So now you have to play fast and loose with translations. Tien acts like a demon. thus his talent comes from how non-human he is.

5. The idea that Kid Goku in Early DB was more heroic than he was as an adult is the biggest piece of contrarian nonsense I have ever read. Idk what show you watched but that doesn't sound like DB First of all, Kid Goku did not act for the good of the world or his family (which he didn't even have in the original series). He would mostly ignore bad guys unless they attacked him, and he didn't even take the RRA seriously until Tao killed that Native American guy (forgot his name). Before then, Goku and pals were mainly out for the DBs, not to save the world. Whenever Kid Goku took a villain seriously, it was because he was motivated by revenge and/or anger, not "justice" or the "good of the world". He morality never goes beyond "don't hurt my friends". Kid Goku was hardly kind and considerate (even by comparison), especially with all the trollish shit he use to do. And I don't recall Kid Goku ever doing anything as heroic as sacrificing himself to get rid of an world-ending villain (like Raditz and Cell).
Goku's first action upon joining with Bulma is walking a lost Turtle home literally just because he's just that good a guy. His grandfather trained him to be a good guy at that point in the series, and his mentors reinforce that throught. Fast-forawrd to the Great Saiyan rewrite and suddenly Goku is this irrepairably selfish man-child? Which is so apparent that that is what people have grown to characterize Goku as. Sure, he might not get the severity of some things, but to pretend he's not a kind-hearted, and dare I say heroic child is asenine. If Adult Goku were a hero, he would not let Gero do what he does for 3 years. If adult goku were a hero he wouldnt prioritize having a good fight,and overconfidently having a good time over trying to end the threat of a cosmic horror known as Boo. Nor would he let vegeta go because he wants to fight him again. Nor would he break the Portara for "a fair fight" against Boo, a monster he knows has ridiculously insane power and then hold back to give Vegeta a turn. That's not heroic. it's reckless, SELFISH nonsense.

We let Majunior slide because his other half is Kami, and theres a pragmatic reason to let him live. But when goku DIDNT know Kami was connected to him, he had no problem ending the great evil. Classic Goku is FAR more of a selfless hero than Adult goku. There is nothing contrarian about saying it. Speaking of, who am I contradicting? Half the fandom thinks Goku is better off as a superman clone according to his funimation rewrites, the other half thinks he's a giant man-child. And you can call it "Contrarian" all you want to, Look at my name post number and date. I dont engage with this fandom that much. I dont want to. So my thoughts on this topic come from shows that I do love.
4. The idea that everyone has equal potential/talent with Ki was never a thing in Early DB (and has nothing to support it), and it seems like some nonsense you made up to vent your hate of the Saiyan characters in the series.
Genki is life energy. It's one of the many mystic aspects of Dragon Ball, and nothing is introduced within the series proper. Genki is what makes these characters beyond human, and apparently (as observed by Goku giving freeza energy and the Humans giving Piccolo energy) it can be shared throught. Nobody says "everybody has equal talent with ki" But when dealing with such a mystical force, why not expand on it? Why do humans, especially prideful martial artists like Tienshinhan and even eventually Piccolo just stop trying? The answer is because Saiyan characters are more popular and they take over.... So lets talk about Underline Bold.

Nice strawman. I dont hate the saiyans, I dislike how they're utilized over the rest of the series cast. which if you paid attention is an issue I've constantly had with Toriyama in this thread. I dont like how he treated Yamucha in early Dragon Ball, I dont like how he treats the other humans later on, And I certainly don't like how the only way to beat villains is a bland hair color change. THIS is my issue with the Saiyan characters because it becomes the most egreigous with them. I dont hate them. I'm just fine with them existing. I hate how the series handles them, because the way the series goes, every non-saiyan earthling is useless by the middle of the cell arc.

So
6. Even in Early DB, the Humans (outside of the tournament arcs), were never actually useful. Krillin did virtually nothing to stop the RRA and got killed off at the start of the Piccolo saga, Yamcha was essentially a joke since day one (even as a villain), Tien (despite being Goku's equal in the 22nd TB) immediately becomes just another useless ally with no victories nor development after his run as the main Villain was over, and Roshi after the 21st doesn't do much either. The only truly useful Human character was Bulma, and this also applies to the other series. At least in Z, characters other than Goku actually get to make a difference and have development that matters. Even Mr. Satan in the Buu arc objectively accomplishes more than the most of the Human characters did in Early DB.


Read above, it's not a justification for handling your characters so poorly and it will never be. ESPECIALLY NOW This is why i call Toriyama a bad writer. This is why I flat out despise the revival era. The series now has a chance to learn from it's own mistakes and other series after it's success. Instead they opt to do the same old same old Vegeta and Goku wank-fest. It does very little new. it consumes itself. Where only Saiyans are viable fighters despite introducing God ki forms which other human races should be able to access. and utilizing Magic more through Boo. I wrote it above, it's the biggest misgiving. Because GOKU AND VEGETA ARE POPULAR The meta is writing the series. This is why super feels so heartless. And the best things it does are either tackling the New (Beerus and Hit) or the underdevloped of it's past (17's post-cell development). Even when you think you're going to get more interesting matchups, like all the advertising for the ToP, we just got a very long, drawn out slug fest. I dont want dragon ball consuming it's most popular aspects ad nauseum, I want it to grow by expanding on what WASNT really fleshed out.

Sonic fandom has Green Hill Spam.
Star Wars fandom has misuse and Overuse of..... everything popular about the O.G. trillogy
DB fandom is SSJ spam.
These and many other reason are why me and many other fans :roll: whenever people overrate Early DB compared to Z.
Early Dragon Ball is and always will be miles better than it's Tired Z portion. And I'm one of those guys who makes exception for the Saiyan arc. The first half was far more willing to explore itself and so even when things didnt land all that well, they always felt strong and genuine. The stories were also just handled better. By the end of Z, Goku is ridiculouly overpowered after the biggest mistake in fiction (Power-levels) happened. Everything balooned uncontrollably, and suddenly the series became about raw powers and endless transformations over skills. or anything resembling character growth. With exception of Vegeta (who's character arc I really love) everybody is either completely degraded or stepped on, their characters retrogress, and toriyama spits all over them. Even Gohan who was slated to become the new protagonoist never really redeems himself. his battle senses atrophy and yet raw power via his mystic form and a day with a really heavy sword is good enough to get him back up to full form? Thats a big Lawl of I've ever heard it.
7. You like many other Early DB fanboys seem to be taking that series too seriously. Spritiual/mystical values and themes was never what made its characters what they are (even the Journey to The West inspiration at the start seems to be thin at best, as pointed out by Misare Fusion of Dragonball Dissection). Its was mainly a gag/adventure martial arts story with some science-fantasy elements and no intended message that gradually got more serious as it went on.
No, I take the WHOLE series seriously. And I don't appreciate when a solid foundation is utterly mucked up. I can never call Dragon ball a Good series anymore. There is way more bad to it than good. I can call it influential. But it's dated. it's poorly dated, and everything about the revival remains as dated as the old series was. That said, Dragon all played around with mysticism, and it makes sense, it's a mystical martial arts Ushyaa tale. It may have started as a weird slice-of-life martial arts comedy, like Dr. Slump. but less than 30 chapters in it changes to something newer. it reinvented itself, and the very foundation of Dragon Balls's reinvention and everything it would be remembered for afterwards, are the words and teachings of the Turtle Hermit, and Goku's other Masters. THEY grow the series as they grow Goku.

Every good story above all is a good character study. When goku stops being developed and studied, and starts to regress as a character to a series of flanderized traits, is when the series goes to shit. Martial arts is mystic. You cannot divorce them. Toriyama didnt divorce them. And that's why when we get to the back end, instead of choreographed HUMAN fights, we get punch loops and slug fests. with characters who are made of katchin.

8. You failed to give any examples of how power levels stop making since after the Saiyan arc.
Goku barely beats raddits (he's around 400 before charging ki)
1 year and some gravity training later he's about 8000.
A couple of weeks later he's somewhere in 50k range
then after a beating, he's able to surpass freeza who's PL is god knows where.

The powers Balloon too quickly, to be believable. The humans train with Kami who got Goku to 400 when not charging up and now they're past what Raditz was each. Are we to assume Kami didnt train Goku as well as he could have knowing his fight with Piccolo comes up?
9. Your final complaint was just plain false. Claiming Goku going SSJ for the 1st time (a transformation initially unlocked through some emotional trauma) with a purely cosmetic change is pure bullshit. Goku doesn't even act the same for the remainder of the arc after unlocking it (right down to his basic mannerisms). This is Goku after coming to terms and embracing (in his own way) the fact that he comes from a race of genocidal barbarians, Goku after being pushed over-the-edge by Freeza, Goku forfilling a prophecy with 2 arcs of build up. Its only once Goten and Present Trunks come in is when SSJ becomes meaningless.
Goku gets angry and his text boxes change to be angular. There is literally NO difference between SSJ Goku and enraged Goku vs tambourine. actually there is.... when goku fought Tambourine both times HE REMAINED CONSISTENTLY ANGRY ENOUGH TO HUNT HIM DOWN AND KILL HIM SSJ goku flip flops between wanting to Kill Freeza, then decides to give him energy because "the defeat is good enough" despite all the previuous rage, and genocide. One chapter he shouts "I WONT LET YOU GET TO MAX POWER" and then afterwards "I'm curious" i'll let him get there. Then he warns freeza to get down when his own dirty attack is about to slice him AFTER RUNNING TO HIM TO MAKE HIS PREVIOUS ATTACK DO JUST THAT

I didnt know flip-flopping as the plot demands was indicative of good or consistent character writing, but I digress. On Paper, the SSJ transformation holds as much visual weight as kaioken. Whearas great ape represents a change in demeanor and ferocity, SSJ is upstanding gold hair. The only difference in the manga is the color. Black to white. But Kaioken could just as easily be interpreted as "Rage-ki" or something. His demeanor changes, but there is nothing about the SSJ transformation that is more than aesthetic. Hey, what if he grew a tail when using it? SSJ3 and SSJ4 are the best transformation as it actually denotes a change in nature.
PS. The Daizenshuu guides were produced just one month after the original manga ended (and when the Z anime was still running). Hardly a product of any decades later retcons, since the original manga was still fresh in Toriyama's mind when they were produced.
I will redact myself. BUT it's still from after Dragon ball ended, and long after Tien was last useful or relevant to the plot. And if you think The guy who forgot Launch existed, and asked Eiichiro Oda who Tao Pai Pai is is going to hold any really good memory of his series, then you've lost it.
Sounds like projection on your part.


There is a reason why you rarely see the other super saiyan transformations outside the original in the revival era. SSJ3 is thrown away after goku gets SSJ Blue. Toriyama thinks it's too complicated so he just goes normal SSJ and Blue. The other SSJ forms, False SSJ, SSJ1, SSJ enhanced, SSJ Bulky, SSJ2, SSJ3, and SSJ4, SSJG, and SSJGSSJ (or SSJB) is what i would call confusing Super Saiyan Spam.

If Goku trained his base SSj form why not do the same for 2 and 3? to be easier on the body? It appears Blue is power control, right? making SSJ2 and 3 redundant? Thats why I say it seems he regretted them? He outright replaces the other forms with Blue which is far superior to them in every way and can be leveled better.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by zarmack » Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:51 am

A Man named RJ wrote:
zarmack wrote: You are in serious denial about this franchise.

1. Even before Beerus was introduced, it was laid out in the original manga itself that Freeza's fear of the Saiyan race's potential is what drove his fear of the them, suggesting that they were intended to be seen as inherently special. No other race was ever stated to have this kind of potential in the Original manga (and this was before the SSJ transformation was introduced). Another detail you forgot was that Freeza's elite army consist of soldiers who were mutants/prodigies of their races, which was why Vegeta didn't stood out much in power (this was stated in the source material itself).
He feared their potential =/= your UNLIMITED potential nonsense. Also You realize Vegeta would also be a "Mutant or prodigy under the same criteria.
2. Even in Early DB, Goku was portrayed as naturally more talented than everyone else around him (with feats like him mastering abilities in a short time that took others decades or even centuries to learn), and its never suggested to be from any mystical or spiritual values (which lead characters like Oolong to speculate as early as the RRA arc that Goku was an alien, pointed out by Misare Fusions). All the Saiyan saga did was finally give a reason why.
Nobody has an issue with Goku holding an edge over his allies, the issue is with him having such an insurmanoutably massive gap ahead of them even though we're at the series's power-ceiling. and his friends just gave up.
It is flat out stated in the original manga around the 22nd TB itself that Tien's talents stem from his non-human aspects, and was presented as a natural prodigy among the humans.

Aliens in Dragon Ball are considered "Humans" So now you have to play fast and loose with translations. Tien acts like a demon. thus his talent comes from how non-human he is.

5. The idea that Kid Goku in Early DB was more heroic than he was as an adult is the biggest piece of contrarian nonsense I have ever read. Idk what show you watched but that doesn't sound like DB First of all, Kid Goku did not act for the good of the world or his family (which he didn't even have in the original series). He would mostly ignore bad guys unless they attacked him, and he didn't even take the RRA seriously until Tao killed that Native American guy (forgot his name). Before then, Goku and pals were mainly out for the DBs, not to save the world. Whenever Kid Goku took a villain seriously, it was because he was motivated by revenge and/or anger, not "justice" or the "good of the world". He morality never goes beyond "don't hurt my friends". Kid Goku was hardly kind and considerate (even by comparison), especially with all the trollish shit he use to do. And I don't recall Kid Goku ever doing anything as heroic as sacrificing himself to get rid of an world-ending villain (like Raditz and Cell).
Goku's first action upon joining with Bulma is walking a lost Turtle home literally just because he's just that good a guy. His grandfather trained him to be a good guy at that point in the series, and his mentors reinforce that throught. Fast-forawrd to the Great Saiyan rewrite and suddenly Goku is this irrepairably selfish man-child? Which is so apparent that that is what people have grown to characterize Goku as. Sure, he might not get the severity of some things, but to pretend he's not a kind-hearted, and dare I say heroic child is asenine. If Adult Goku were a hero, he would not let Gero do what he does for 3 years. If adult goku were a hero he wouldnt prioritize having a good fight,and overconfidently having a good time over trying to end the threat of a cosmic horror known as Boo. Nor would he let vegeta go because he wants to fight him again. Nor would he break the Portara for "a fair fight" against Boo, a monster he knows has ridiculously insane power and then hold back to give Vegeta a turn. That's not heroic. it's reckless, SELFISH nonsense.

We let Majunior slide because his other half is Kami, and theres a pragmatic reason to let him live. But when goku DIDNT know Kami was connected to him, he had no problem ending the great evil. Classic Goku is FAR more of a selfless hero than Adult goku. There is nothing contrarian about saying it. Speaking of, who am I contradicting? Half the fandom thinks Goku is better off as a superman clone according to his funimation rewrites, the other half thinks he's a giant man-child. And you can call it "Contrarian" all you want to, Look at my name post number and date. I dont engage with this fandom that much. I dont want to. So my thoughts on this topic come from shows that I do love.
4. The idea that everyone has equal potential/talent with Ki was never a thing in Early DB (and has nothing to support it), and it seems like some nonsense you made up to vent your hate of the Saiyan characters in the series.
Genki is life energy. It's one of the many mystic aspects of Dragon Ball, and nothing is introduced within the series proper. Genki is what makes these characters beyond human, and apparently (as observed by Goku giving freeza energy and the Humans giving Piccolo energy) it can be shared throught. Nobody says "everybody has equal talent with ki" But when dealing with such a mystical force, why not expand on it? Why do humans, especially prideful martial artists like Tienshinhan and even eventually Piccolo just stop trying? The answer is because Saiyan characters are more popular and they take over.... So lets talk about Underline Bold.

Nice strawman. I dont hate the saiyans, I dislike how they're utilized over the rest of the series cast. which if you paid attention is an issue I've constantly had with Toriyama in this thread. I dont like how he treated Yamucha in early Dragon Ball, I dont like how he treats the other humans later on, And I certainly don't like how the only way to beat villains is a bland hair color change. THIS is my issue with the Saiyan characters because it becomes the most egreigous with them. I dont hate them. I'm just fine with them existing. I hate how the series handles them, because the way the series goes, every non-saiyan earthling is useless by the middle of the cell arc.

So
6. Even in Early DB, the Humans (outside of the tournament arcs), were never actually useful. Krillin did virtually nothing to stop the RRA and got killed off at the start of the Piccolo saga, Yamcha was essentially a joke since day one (even as a villain), Tien (despite being Goku's equal in the 22nd TB) immediately becomes just another useless ally with no victories nor development after his run as the main Villain was over, and Roshi after the 21st doesn't do much either. The only truly useful Human character was Bulma, and this also applies to the other series. At least in Z, characters other than Goku actually get to make a difference and have development that matters. Even Mr. Satan in the Buu arc objectively accomplishes more than the most of the Human characters did in Early DB.


Read above, it's not a justification for handling your characters so poorly and it will never be.
ESPECIALLY NOW
This is why i call Toriyama a bad writer. This is why I flat out despise the revival era. The series now has a chance to learn from it's own mistakes and other series after it's success. Instead they opt to do the same old same old Vegeta and Goku wank-fest. It does very little new. it consumes itself. Where only Saiyans are viable fighters despite introducing God ki forms which other human races should be able to access. and utilizing Magic more through Boo. I wrote it above, it's the biggest misgiving. Because GOKU AND VEGETA ARE POPULAR The meta is writing the series. This is why super feels so heartless. And the best things it does are either tackling the New (Beerus and Hit) or the underdevloped of it's past (17's post-cell development). Even when you think you're going to get more interesting matchups, like all the advertising for the ToP, we just got a very long, drawn out slug fest. I dont want dragon ball consuming it's most popular aspects ad nauseum, I want it to grow by expanding on what WASNT really fleshed out.

Sonic fandom has Green Hill Spam.
Star Wars fandom has misuse and Overuse of..... everything popular about the O.G. trillogy
DB fandom is SSJ spam.
These and many other reason are why me and many other fans :roll: whenever people overrate Early DB compared to Z.
Early Dragon Ball is and always will be miles better than it's Tired Z portion. And I'm one of those guys who makes exception for the Saiyan arc. The first half was far more willing to explore itself and so even when things didnt land all that well, they always felt strong and genuine. The stories were also just handled better. By the end of Z, Goku is ridiculouly overpowered after the biggest mistake in fiction (Power-levels) happened. Everything balooned uncontrollably, and suddenly the series became about raw powers and endless transformations over skills. or anything resembling character growth. With exception of Vegeta (who's character arc I really love) everybody is either completely degraded or stepped on, their characters retrogress, and toriyama spits all over them. Even Gohan who was slated to become the new protagonoist never really redeems himself. his battle senses atrophy and yet raw power via his mystic form and a day with a really heavy sword is good enough to get him back up to full form? Thats a big Lawl of I've ever heard it.
7. You like many other Early DB fanboys seem to be taking that series too seriously. Spritiual/mystical values and themes was never what made its characters what they are (even the Journey to The West inspiration at the start seems to be thin at best, as pointed out by Misare Fusion of Dragonball Dissection). Its was mainly a gag/adventure martial arts story with some science-fantasy elements and no intended message that gradually got more serious as it went on.
No, I take the WHOLE series seriously. And I don't appreciate when a solid foundation is utterly mucked up. I can never call Dragon ball a Good series anymore. There is way more bad to it than good. I can call it influential. But it's dated. it's poorly dated, and everything about the revival remains as dated as the old series was. That said, Dragon all played around with mysticism, and it makes sense, it's a mystical martial arts Ushyaa tale. It may have started as a weird slice-of-life martial arts comedy, like Dr. Slump. but less than 30 chapters in it changes to something newer. it reinvented itself, and the very foundation of Dragon Balls's reinvention and everything it would be remembered for afterwards, are the words and teachings of the Turtle Hermit, and Goku's other Masters. THEY grow the series as they grow Goku.

Every good story above all is a good character study. When goku stops being developed and studied, and starts to regress as a character to a series of flanderized traits, is when the series goes to shit. Martial arts is mystic. You cannot divorce them. Toriyama didnt divorce them. And that's why when we get to the back end, instead of choreographed HUMAN fights, we get punch loops and slug fests. with characters who are made of katchin.

8. You failed to give any examples of how power levels stop making since after the Saiyan arc.
Goku barely beats raddits (he's around 400 before charging ki)
1 year and some gravity training later he's about 8000.
A couple of weeks later he's somewhere in 50k range
then after a beating, he's able to surpass freeza who's PL is god knows where.

The powers Balloon too quickly, to be believable. The humans train with Kami who got Goku to 400 when not charging up and now they're past what Raditz was each. Are we to assume Kami didnt train Goku as well as he could have knowing his fight with Piccolo comes up?
9. Your final complaint was just plain false. Claiming Goku going SSJ for the 1st time (a transformation initially unlocked through some emotional trauma) with a purely cosmetic change is pure bullshit. Goku doesn't even act the same for the remainder of the arc after unlocking it (right down to his basic mannerisms). This is Goku after coming to terms and embracing (in his own way) the fact that he comes from a race of genocidal barbarians, Goku after being pushed over-the-edge by Freeza, Goku forfilling a prophecy with 2 arcs of build up. Its only once Goten and Present Trunks come in is when SSJ becomes meaningless.
Goku gets angry and his text boxes change to be angular. There is literally NO difference between SSJ Goku and enraged Goku vs tambourine. actually there is.... when goku fought Tambourine both times HE REMAINED CONSISTENTLY ANGRY ENOUGH TO HUNT HIM DOWN AND KILL HIM SSJ goku flip flops between wanting to Kill Freeza, then decides to give him energy because "the defeat is good enough" despite all the previuous rage, and genocide. One chapter he shouts "I WONT LET YOU GET TO MAX POWER" and then afterwards "I'm curious" i'll let him get there. Then he warns freeza to get down when his own dirty attack is about to slice him AFTER RUNNING TO HIM TO MAKE HIS PREVIOUS ATTACK DO JUST THAT

I didnt know flip-flopping as the plot demands was indicative of good or consistent character writing, but I digress. On Paper, the SSJ transformation holds as much visual weight as kaioken. Whearas great ape represents a change in demeanor and ferocity, SSJ is upstanding gold hair. The only difference in the manga is the color. Black to white. But Kaioken could just as easily be interpreted as "Rage-ki" or something. His demeanor changes, but there is nothing about the SSJ transformation that is more than aesthetic. Hey, what if he grew a tail when using it? SSJ3 and SSJ4 are the best transformation as it actually denotes a change in nature.
PS. The Daizenshuu guides were produced just one month after the original manga ended (and when the Z anime was still running). Hardly a product of any decades later retcons, since the original manga was still fresh in Toriyama's mind when they were produced.
I will redact myself. BUT it's still from after Dragon ball ended, and long after Tien was last useful or relevant to the plot. And if you think The guy who forgot Launch existed, and asked Eiichiro Oda who Tao Pai Pai is is going to hold any really good memory of his series, then you've lost it.
Sounds like projection on your part.


There is a reason why you rarely see the other super saiyan transformations outside the original in the revival era. SSJ3 is thrown away after goku gets SSJ Blue. Toriyama thinks it's too complicated so he just goes normal SSJ and Blue. The other SSJ forms, False SSJ, SSJ1, SSJ enhanced, SSJ Bulky, SSJ2, SSJ3, and SSJ4, SSJG, and SSJGSSJ (or SSJB) is what i would call confusing Super Saiyan Spam.

If Goku trained his base SSj form why not do the same for 2 and 3? to be easier on the body? It appears Blue is power control, right? making SSJ2 and 3 redundant? Thats why I say it seems he regretted them? He outright replaces the other forms with Blue which is far superior to them in every way and can be leveled better.
1. Freeza flat out states that the Saiyans have "bottomless" (aka infinite) potential. So you are in denial about this.
Image

2. Goku was already shown to be massively more competent and any of his allies by the end of the 22nd arc. So they were already essentially phased out before Z.

3.
A Man named RJ wrote: "Aliens in Dragon Ball are considered "Humans" So now you have to play fast and loose with translations. Tien acts like a demon. thus his talent comes from how non-human he is."
You basically admitted that I was right about Tien.

4. "Goku's first action [/b]upon joining with Bulma is walking a lost Turtle home literally just because he's just that good a guy."

That's a pretty poor argument for claiming that Kid Goku was more heroic. I could just as easily point to Adult Goku helping a family of dinosaurs fix their nest and find their eggs. Its minor samaritan shit. Again, you failed to show any example of Kid Goku doing anything more or even equally heroic than his self-sacrifices as an Adult. We never even see Kid Goku make any heroic speeches like this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG0dsM8NIpA

Goku from day one was always a simple, eternally immature character, just like the guy he was initially based on (Sun Wukong). This was a character who at the age of 12 couldn't even tell the difference between boys and girls.To argue otherwise is pure self-delusion and nostalgia bias. The "but he was a kid" argument doesn't work, because Krillin at the same age was never as immature as Kid Goku.

And the Kami thing doesn't hold. Kami himself wanted to die along with Piccolo after the 23rd TB and was about to make the killing blow (they could always just find a new guardian), with Goku mainly sparring him so that he could fight him again someday (saving Kami was just a secondary excuse).

5. Early DB is by far the most overrated part of the franchise, easily. It features many of the same writing flaws of the future installments, on average the worst animation and art design out of all 4 series, a mostly forgettable supporting cast, less character development than Z and even the Super anime. (Seriously, there's not a single character in Early DB who's characterization is anywhere near as impressive as Piccolo's, Gohan's, Vegeta's, Freeza's and Future Trunks' in. Z And despite the missed opportunities with Gohan and Piccolo, they were still written better and developed more in Z than any of the human fighters in Early DB).The story arcs before the 22nd TB arc are mostly forgettable. Its mainly shilled over the rest of the series by contrarian nerds who wanna look more "sophisticated" and intelligent compared to Z-tards (even though its objectively worse in many areas). Though this attitude has started to die down since the release of Kai, if these anime review sites are something to go by:
https://myanimelist.net/anime/223/Dragon_Ball
https://www.anikore.jp/anime/132/
https://myanimelist.net/anime/813/Dragon_Ball_Z
https://www.anikore.jp/anime/162/

Notice how Z does better both east and west.

Also, Martial arts Skill and Intelligence in DB has always been overrated and irrelevant, especially when compare to other battle series. Many have even made threads pointing this out,including myself: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42914&p=1546370#p1546370

Every fight in Early DB and afterwards has always been decided by willpower and raw strength in one way of another. Whenever a character would try a special tactic or technique on Goku (like Roshi and Tien did in their tournament fights with Kid Goku) and some of the others, he would either copy it, counter it and/or throw it back at them, showing them and the audience that it is essentially useless.

"Martial arts is mystic. You cannot divorce them"

and yet Eastern/Taoist philosophy/mysticism is never seriously explored in Early DB, especially not in the blatantly Sci-fi RRA arc.

And no, Goku is not the strongest person around at the end of Z (Gohan, Gotenks and most versions of Buu were all stronger than he was). In fact, Goku is less of an overpowered protagonist in Z and even Super than he is in Early DB. He needs Gohan, Krillin and Yajorbe's help to take down Vegeta, he flat out loses to Cell (having Gohan say the day with an assist from Vegeta), and he couldn't take down Kid Buu one-on-one, needing to plan with Vegeta to make a Spirit Bomb from the energy of the entire team and people of Earth. The only major Big Bad Goku beats singlehandedly in Z is Freeza (and that took lots of effort and willpower on his part).

Compare this to Early DB, where Goku flat out solos both the RRA (Tao being his only real challenge, and even he is fodderized in their rematch) and King Piccolo's crew, with every else doing basically nothing or epic failing against a henchman (ex. Krillin getting slapped up General Blue and killed off screen by Tambourine, Tien getting slapped up by Drum, etc.)

Goku is even outright declared the strongest man in the world at the end of the 23rd arc, the only arc Goku is ever the strongest in Z was the Namek saga. So if anything, you should be whining about Early DB (and GT) when it comes to wanking Goku at the expense of everyone else

6. "Goku barely beats raddits (he's around 400 before charging ki)
1 year and some gravity training later he's about 8000.
A couple of weeks later he's somewhere in 50k range
then after a beating, he's able to surpass freeza who's PL is god knows where."

None of these are examples of contradiction or a lack of internal logic, especially since all of that was given internal reasons. Characters rapidly getting stronger (which also happened in the Piccolo arc) is a plothole.

7. "I didnt know flip-flopping as the plot demands was indicative of good or consistent character writing, but I digress."

That was him struggling to control his rage as a SSJ (he even says this when he meets Future Trunks and talks about going SSJ for the 1st time. So it aint headcanon.) And the Cell arc makes it a point that mastering SSJ1 means it no longer alters your personality and behavior.

And SSJ3 and SSJ4 don't involve any real change in character at all. Goku is still Goku as a SSJ3, Gotenks is still his gag-like self as a SSJ3, and there's hardly any change in demeanor for SSJ4 Vegeta.

And about your last point: Goku & Vegeta actually use SSJ2 far more often than SSJ1 in Modern DB. SSJ4 actually matters in GT, as do SSB in Super and SSG in the Broly film. The reason you don't see SSJ3 much was explained in the Buu arc itself: it drains too much stamina too quickly. The flaws of the bulky grade forms from the Android arc were actually intentional and pointed out in the arc itself, which is why you don''t see them anymore either. So those are bad arguments.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by A Man named RJ » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:16 pm

I'm gonna cut the quote mining here.
_______________________________________________________________________

I dont give a damn that Toriyama was bad at handling his characters in a few instances before Z. The fact is Dragon Ball has a very strong foundation post-pilaf, and The longer it goes on, the longer the Meta of the show begins to dictate the Narrative of the series, and not in-universe logic. Suddenly In Z we have false-starts, characters acting out of character because the plot demands it, more power-level creep, horrid misuse of characters, and characters just giving up. When there is NO REASON OUTSIDE OF YOUR HEAD-CANON JUSTIFICATIONS, AND A PLETHORA OF RETCONS FROM WHEN THE MANGA WAS ALREADY OVER FOR IT Are you seriously telling me, humans cant make that gap with psychokinesis, or Magic, OR JUST TRAINING THEIR DAMN KI This is ridiculous, and it's unnaturally restrictive. And then we get introduced to God forms and God Ki, let me ask you something, if we DO have lower, weaker deity-types, and we have Mortals who can achieve diety status. Why cant any earthlings achieve this power or enlightenment or whatever? Again, there is no reason. Aside from the Saiyan wank-fest that begins in the middle of Z dictates the plot.

Humans in other series (yes i'm going there) Are far more complex and viable, and with Dragon Ball having such technically complicated power-sets it is an atrocity that 98% of it remains reducible to punches, kicks and basic ki blasts.

So where are we now? We're in the middle of the dragon ball revival. Cool new Ki types, and abilities have been introduced. And when they try to implement these things it makes many of us hopeful. Hit can time-stop that's cool, and interesting. Boo is going to be in this tournament? Well BOO's power-set is everything I hoped for and more.... Now what do the earthlings - the core cast from way back when get? FUCKING NOTHING? And then Universe Survival happens and it's handled horribly, and powers remain basic punches and kicks, and gag abilities. It does get a little more diverse with gasses and what-not but it never lives up to what Dragon ball could be, set by it's very own foundations..

And this begins my core issue. Dragon Ball used to PIONEER. Since then it's become stale. It never took advantage of the tools it was given. Instead it used only a hammer, and then put shiny plastic on the hammer to make the hammer look prettier. But what about the screw-drivers and torque wrenches? there is a big set here, why does dragon ball keep only using the Hammer? And then it hides the evidence by giving the hammer pretty markings on the handle. and then spit-shining the metal parts. When the tool is no longer in use. Then the set was put away from 20 years, and the owner keeps bragging about how the Hammer saved him and his buddy from the war and some nonsense history about the hammer. Fastforward, the Toolbox comes back out for the first time in 20 years, and now we're ONLY USING THE HAMMER AGAIN. The other tools are a little scratched, but still perffectly viable for some TLC.

This is gross. Dragon Ball doesnt Pioneer anymore, it consumes itself and only the most popular elements at that, It never consumes it's foundation when there is far better media INSPIRED FROM DRAGON BALL that exists, for dragon ball to take design hints from. This is why i ultimately dont give a damn about Post-series Guidebook lore. or retcons from 10 years later. its NOT conclusive to a good, or even interesting story. Dragon ball has this massive well to pull from, It needs to start using it's tools mroe effectively. Because the big thing that fucks dragon ball in the end is series discovered something FROM DBZ that DB never bothered to learn. Just increasing a raw power-level gets boring and makes coming up with new threats a herculean task. So what did we get? From the contemporary and post-dragon ball world until the revival?
In parenthesis I pointed something out.... Dragon ball has all of these elements baked into it. There is nothing stopping it from diversifying how abilities are handled, and how characters can interact aside from the limitations of the human (Writer's) imagination. It's already tried so there is no damn excuse. And I am tired, of fans sitting here and pretending it's because some Hatrred of Z and NOT dragon ball as a whole failing to capitalize on what made it interesting in the first place, but instead chosing what's popular. When you make a tower and then grow the tower by only expanding it's height it will fall over, you have to go back to the foundation and build upon that too. You cant just take things people liked before and stuff itintoa new context. This is the biggest problem with series that pander to nostalgia.

Starwars panders to nostalgia, and it's crashed. Sonic is pandering to Nostalgia and fans are losing interest fast. Dragon Ball Panders to nostalgia and it's going to lose steam soon. We're 10 years into the revival. Consider that Kai started 10 years ago. I dont want to see this series brimming with potential still to fall into it's old bad habbits. We have learned so much from it, why let this continue? I willend this by pointing to something different.... Spiderman PS4. Spiderman PS4 takes the popular elements of spiderman games, and combines it with a deep understanding and love for the character (Unlike that asshole Dan Slott) It built upon it's foundation and created something new that we love. It's literally because it nailed Peter Parker and his adversaries that we love it so much. Dragon Ball needs to nail it's core cast if we dont want it to be so divisive. It needs to understand what made it work, and stop just pandering to nostalgia. IDK how much longer fans can get the same old regurgitated, souless crap and expect to stay invested.

I want Dragon Ball to grow up with the fans that love it so much. No this doesn't mean be some edge fest. it means coming to grips with what made it, and making itself better. That is the fundamental rule that Roshi strove for in the early parts of the series, and thats why so much after Dragon Ball (the manga) has grown from it. I just want Dragon ball to grow into something we can all truly love. Because this series means more to me than you'd ever know. it is the reason I'm an animator. It's also the reason I began to look at more serialized stories, and as I did, I began to grow as person and a writer, what makes good serialized stories and what doesn't.
I am an Animator, Illustrator, and Voice Actor. Check out MY Animation Thesis! HERE

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by A Man named RJ » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:30 pm

TL;DR for anybody not wanting to read that. The fact that we have "Fans of the old series and "Z portion" is proof positive that Dragon Ball neglects half of it's identity to a self-destructive degree. If you want dragon ball to achieve some form of harmony in the fanbase, it needs to consolidate it's elements. The problem isnt a hatred of anything, it's a loss of what made it special to many such as myself and many others. And fans who do their best to minimize this loss through backwards head-canon, and intellectually disingenuous explanations (Like seriously, he said Goku acts inconsistently because SSJ is messing with his head, even though SSJ as it first appears is supposed to be a manifestation of his RAGE, and it's totally not because Toriyama never plans his next move as the guy will gleefully admit. ) is not helping anything.

I've no idea why anybody would want this series to continue neglecting half of it's legacy, and defending backwards character writing, I've no idea why you people want this series to stagnate as it has, But It's time to stop! You are going to kill this franchise. The glaring holes in it will continue to expand as long as the staff is never incentivised to learn from the series in it's entirety. Fan jokes and meta need to stop writing dragon ball.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Grimlock » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:28 am

Alright, 2019 is here and that means there's a couple of days left until the movie is released around here. Let's see if, despite being a terrible series, Dragon Ball Super can at least produce a decent movie. Really don't wanna have to experience the same feeling I did for Movie 15.
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Dragon Ball Super - *coughes*
Games - Because you lack... Content.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by gantarat » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:30 am

earthling is super weak comepare to other alien race
goku great apes alone can destroy all human witihin 4-5 years on Early DB.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Miracles » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:43 pm

A Man named RJ wrote:
zarmack wrote:
Miracles wrote:Vegeta developing by lowering his pride and finally admitting Goku being number one does not mean he would stop trying to surpass him.
Apparently, many idiots in the fandom think Vegeta should have turned into yet another modest background character with no ambitions of any kind after the Buu arc :roll: . Idk how anyone could find that appealing, let alone in character.

Literally nobody thinks or wants this. This is the flimsiest strawman ever, and you should be ashamed for even writing it out. Nobody has any issues with characters having ambitions. People take issue with Vegeta's current actions and justifications running directly into the face of previous development. and reqiring a retcon 10 years after the fact to even work. If you're going to give Vegeta a reason to fight, his REASONS need to change, and the story of his reasons would change too, which in and of itself would make the character, and overall plot of the main series eons more dynamic.

Just because Toriyama is a bad writier, and moved his reformed characters to the sidelines doesn't mean that's what he should be doing or what fans actually want. because throwing characters away at random is not good writing. - which is exactly why it's the basis of so much ridicule. And because He's not writing the main plot out anymore there is literally no reason not to find a different motivation and use for Vegeta, and the other neglected characters. Which would be a million times more fascinating than anything that The Goku and Vegeta show I mean DB Super came up with.

The fact that you could write that unironically, and call people who dont like Vegeta's flagrantly backwards development "Many idiots" it just boggles the mind..... Like do you realize that ambitions and motives can change?
Yes, motives can change but Toriyama never gave Vegeta a different ambition. I think you are reading into things that were not there in the first place and expected something different. An admission does not mean someone quits their pursuit.

Happy New Years everyone!
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Lukmendes » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:58 pm

zarmack wrote:And the Kami thing doesn't hold. Kami himself wanted to die along with Piccolo after the 23rd TB and was about to make the killing blow (they could always just find a new guardian), with Goku mainly sparring him so that he could fight him again someday (saving Kami was just a secondary excuse).
The way the scene presents it has Goku interrupting Kami and saying he won't let Kami kill himself, and then when Goku mentions that having Piccolo as a rival would be cool, it seemed to be more of a secondary thing, though still important for him:

https://i.imgur.com/5Nq2biQ.png

https://i.imgur.com/frRwRre.png

And it makes no sense for them to have the mentality of "Kami killed himself, oh well, let's find a new guardian!", DB characters can be callous, but they aren't on that level, specialy since in this very scene we have the characters cheering on Kami when he talked about the dragon balls being a mistake.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Hulk10 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:05 pm

Yeah the good characters can be kinda callous at times.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by PFM18 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:58 am

Miracles wrote:Vegeta developing by lowering his pride and finally admitting Goku being number one does not mean he would stop trying to surpass him.
Right. Admitting his inferiority at the particular time doesn't mean Vegeta has given up on surpassing Goku. The manga ends with Vegeta wanting to surpass Goku for a reason.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by BrolyKale » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:42 am

So do we even know why this new Broly is just uncontrollable and violent and needs to be under Paragus' control?
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