Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #1 Thread: "Broly"

[Luso Saiyan]

Then I wonder who this 'Moroko' is that Dragon ball wiki has an article for and has a speaking role in the movie...

He's probably the one who informs Nappa that planet Vegeta has been destroyed.

[mahakaishin1991]

well generally speaking, old people are past their prime and not particularly strong. Females in most species are physically weaker, and dragonball seems to run with the strong females being exceptions to the rule.

I personally dont like it, but it looks like Cheelai's comment indicates that most species are running on earth ningen logic of biological averages.

Yeah I think your probably right.

I personally like it. Adds a sense of reality to the whole concept of Freeza’s army and how he’s trying to build it back up. But with how most of it has been destroyed, he’s grabbing from whatever he can find and get to build it back up again.

I personally don't like it because even on our planet, males arent universally the physically stronger nor the 'workhouse' sex. It seems a bit odd to me that there's an abundance of species running the same models of humans when different planets, environments and evolution wouldn't logically make this the case across an entire universe.

[Michsi]

Yeah I think your probably right.

I personally like it. Adds a sense of reality to the whole concept of Freeza’s army and how he’s trying to build it back up. But with how most of it has been destroyed, he’s grabbing from whatever he can find and get to build it back up again.

I personally don't like it because even on our planet, males arent universally the physically stronger nor the 'workhouse' sex. It seems a bit odd to me that there's an abundance of species running the same models of humans when different planets, environments and evolution wouldn't logically make this the case across an entire universe.

I have yet to see the scene to judge myself, but it might be more of a commentary on Freeza's previous picks as far as combatants were concerned. We've only ever seen men (or male-like aliens) in Freeza's army before, so Cheelai and Lemo really are unusual in that regard.

[mahakaishin1991]

I personally like it. Adds a sense of reality to the whole concept of Freeza’s army and how he’s trying to build it back up. But with how most of it has been destroyed, he’s grabbing from whatever he can find and get to build it back up again.

I personally don't like it because even on our planet, males arent universally the physically stronger nor the 'workhouse' sex. It seems a bit odd to me that there's an abundance of species running the same models of humans when different planets, environments and evolution wouldn't logically make this the case across an entire universe.

I have yet to see the scene to judge myself, but it might be more of a commentary on Freeza's previous picks as far as combatants were concerned. We've only ever seen men (or male-like aliens) in Freeza's army before, so Cheelai and Lemo really are unusual in that regard.

Yeah but still, it always bugged me anyway that Freeza's army had only males anyways, out of all the cosmos

[mute_proxy]

Yeah but still, it always bugged me anyway that Freeza's army had only males anyways, out of all the cosmos

It's an army, having males on the front lines is a lot more common than females.

[mahakaishin1991]

Yeah but still, it always bugged me anyway that Freeza's army had only males anyways, out of all the cosmos

It's an army, having males on the front lines is a lot more common than females.

Go and read the entire line of these posts.

You'd have to justify every single 'ningen' species in the entirety of Universe 7 using the same sexual dimorphism as humans, and that's not even true for wildlife on our planet, so I just don't think it's likely.

You'd have a point if it was just humans, but we aren't just talking humans. You mean to tell me not a single species out in the entire universe of dragonball that has females that is stronger than the males? On our planet, African Lions, Spotted Hyenas, Orcas, Blue Whales, a vast variety of species of spiders, a large amount of sea life (angler fish particularly) Bonobos, various birds of prey and more all have stronger and larger females.

[mute_proxy]

Yeah but still, it always bugged me anyway that Freeza's army had only males anyways, out of all the cosmos

It's an army, having males on the front lines is a lot more common than females.

Go and read the entire line of these posts.

You'd have to justify every single 'ningen' species in the entirety of Universe 7 using the same sexual dimorphism as humans, and that's not even true for wildlife on our planet, so I just don't think it's likely.

You'd have a point if it was just humans, but we aren't just talking humans. You mean to tell me not a single species out in the entire universe of dragonball that has females that is stronger than the males? On our planet, African Lions, Spotted Hyenas, Orcas, Blue Whales, a vast variety of species of spiders, a large amount of sea life (angler fish particularly) Bonobos, various birds of prey and more all have stronger and larger females.

That's as problematic as all of the universes talking the same language. It's just how the DBverse was thought out. Sentient beings are humanoids, animalistic creatures are wildlife, male are stronger fighters and so on. It's a shonen fighting series by an old school shonen manga artist. And you're arguing his imagination with politics

[mahakaishin1991]

It's an army, having males on the front lines is a lot more common than females.

Go and read the entire line of these posts.

You'd have to justify every single 'ningen' species in the entirety of Universe 7 using the same sexual dimorphism as humans, and that's not even true for wildlife on our planet, so I just don't think it's likely.

You'd have a point if it was just humans, but we aren't just talking humans. You mean to tell me not a single species out in the entire universe of dragonball that has females that is stronger than the males? On our planet, African Lions, Spotted Hyenas, Orcas, Blue Whales, a vast variety of species of spiders, a large amount of sea life (angler fish particularly) Bonobos, various birds of prey and more all have stronger and larger females.

That's as problematic as all of the universes talking the same language. It's just how the DBverse was thought out. Sentient beings are humanoids, animalistic creatures are wildlife, male are stronger fighters and so on. It's a shonen fighting series by an old school shonen manga artist. And you're arguing his imagination with politics

Galactic basic as a language I can tolerate because it's common in Sci-fi for ease of character communication and not having to make as many languages as their are races from scratch.

I just find it very unlikely that every race, humanoid, animalistic or otherwise, runs on the same evolutionary ideas of humans. You can have a near infinite amount of character variety in a series like this by proxy of how huge it is, but Freeza seems to stick to a limited pool of races for someone that owns a big chunk of the universe: it's pretty much always the same recoloured humans, appule guy and 'horned humans' with minimal exception, usually one bird man here or one fish guy there.

Even in the Revival of F movie, you can count a lot of reused designs from the Namek Saga.Variety only really comes in with Elites like Ginyu, Shisami, Tagoma, Dodoria, Kikono etc. Does Freeza have some kind of employment scheme for specific planets? Is there some specific rule he has about his employment demographics? What's to stop him using women when there are blasters capable of blowing holes in saiyans that existed before he blew up their home planet? Blasters that obviously work fine since Sorbet merc'd Goku with one?

Back to my main point. As the series has gone on, new races have been introduced, new concepts have been introduced, new worlds too. We've seen powerhouses like Ribrianna, Kale, Kefla, and with recent additions of Cheelia, Android 21 etc so it's not like this series is as shy of it's female combatants as it used to be, granted some of these aren't from Universe 7, but it shows that Toriyama isn't somehow unable to conceptualize female characters of varied races.

Yet Freeza's entire army is stuck in this design limbo. The Manga for Revival of F does away with this by using other races we didn't in the movie: There's the Ledgic race member for a start, there's also a Kanassan from the Bardock special, one of Yakon's race is present in the manga as well, there's also a Yardrat:



The blasters we've seen, which we know can punch holes in saiyans ranging from low rankers like Beets all the way through to Goku when he's distracted shows that physical power and ki isn't even a factor, so theirs no reason for Freeza to just conscript men and you can give a child one of those blaster rings and stand them in a line on a planet you're invading. In fact, if I were in freeza's shoes, I'd train Saibamen to be able to use guns, they take orders well so you can just flood cities with them and have them shoot at people, if they get in a sticky situation, blow up and kill everyone anyway.

Freeza's small pool of races speaks partly to design, and from animator perspective here I get reusing assets, but with manga content (with far less drawing too do) and in universe explanation, it speaks more of Freeza being inefficient or having some personal reason... perhaps's Freeza's attitudes to women really are spelled out in his 'SHUT YOUR MOUTH WOMAN!' comment at Bulma. The irony is, Freeza isn't a 'he' in the sense we humans would use given his race reproduces asexually.

I guess it boils more down to there being no good reason for it that's been presented in context. If we had a plot reason (like how the saiyans have no females left in Universe 7) it would be different.

TLDR: The sheer amount of races presented in series means there is no need for the army to be made up of the same 5 recoloured humanoids, beard and moustache dudes and recoloured appules, we've got a truck full of races, and there is no reason for Freeza to cut whole sections of populations out on a physical strength basis when blasters can punch holes in the supposedly strongest mortal race. Even the manga at least uses other races in it's adaption of the Revival of F. It is also not hard to widen a characters hips and throw on some breasts if you really must stick to the human rules. Blasters are common enough.

[AnimeNation101]

Yeah I think your probably right.

I personally like it. Adds a sense of reality to the whole concept of Freeza’s army and how he’s trying to build it back up. But with how most of it has been destroyed, he’s grabbing from whatever he can find and get to build it back up again.

I personally don't like it because even on our planet, males arent universally the physically stronger nor the 'workhouse' sex. It seems a bit odd to me that there's an abundance of species running the same models of humans when different planets, environments and evolution wouldn't logically make this the case across an entire universe.

Yeah but i think they are going off of how, in reality, males on average are stronger than females or at least thats what most have been lead to believe these days. I mean, its a fact that in armies, its more men dominated. Still though, i can see how people don’t like it.

Yeah I think your probably right.

I personally like it. Adds a sense of reality to the whole concept of Freeza’s army and how he’s trying to build it back up. But with how most of it has been destroyed, he’s grabbing from whatever he can find and get to build it back up again.

Yeah but it still sounded like Cheelai was dissing her own gender.

I see ur point. It might even seem out of character. But i need to see how she says it first to make a final judgement, tbh.

[Hulk10]

I personally like it. Adds a sense of reality to the whole concept of Freeza’s army and how he’s trying to build it back up. But with how most of it has been destroyed, he’s grabbing from whatever he can find and get to build it back up again.

I personally don't like it because even on our planet, males arent universally the physically stronger nor the 'workhouse' sex. It seems a bit odd to me that there's an abundance of species running the same models of humans when different planets, environments and evolution wouldn't logically make this the case across an entire universe.

Yeah but i think they are going off of how, in reality, males on average are stronger than females or at least thats what most have been lead to believe these days. I mean, its a fact that in armies, its more men dominated. Still though, i can see how people don’t like it.

I personally like it. Adds a sense of reality to the whole concept of Freeza’s army and how he’s trying to build it back up. But with how most of it has been destroyed, he’s grabbing from whatever he can find and get to build it back up again.

Yeah but it still sounded like Cheelai was dissing her own gender.

I see ur point. It might even seem out of character. But i need to see how she says it first to make a final judgement, tbh.

Check the film out on <LINK REMOVED BY MOD>

[mahakaishin1991]

Yeah but i think they are going off of how, in reality, males on average are stronger than females or at least thats what most have been lead to believe these days. I mean, its a fact that in armies, its more men dominated. Still though, i can see how people don’t like it.

But again, these are aliens, like I've said, there's no universal rule that males of every species are stronger, this is shown in other animals on our planet. Why should it be the case?

The army thing irl comparison doesnt work because we're using our species as an example, when there's no reason for that to be the same on a different planet.

[AnimeNation101]

But again, these are aliens, like I've said, there's no universal rule that males of every species are stronger, this is shown in other animals on our planet. Why should it be the case?

The army thing irl comparison doesnt work because we're using our species as an example, when there's no reason for that to be the same on a different planet.

With the fact that every language speaks the same as earthlings and they are basically the same shape (humanoid) as earthlings, i don’t think the general “males on average are stronger than females” thing should really bother you if your problem is that “these are aliens and shouldn’t follow our general rules and the way things work for us”.

[alakazam^]

Cheely is of the opinion that old people and women aren't good army material and she's allowed to think that. It's really not that big a deal.

[Luso Saiyan]

Cheely is of the opinion that old people and women aren't good army material and she's allowed to think that. It's really not that big a deal.

Touché.

[Shaddy]

It's more than likely representative of Toriyama's own opinion, though. That's bad for diversity in character design, and it's not like he really needs more casual sexism across his works.

[Luso Saiyan]

It's more than likely representative of Toriyama's own opinion, though. That's bad for diversity in character design, and it's not like he really needs more casual sexism across his works.

Casual sexism? Really?

Besides, the guy just introduced two new characters with unique and original designs (same for the previous two movies he was involved in) and somehow "diversity in character design" is being affected?

[mute_proxy]

It's his creation, how he imagined his world, there's nothing wrong basing it on his own opinions.

[Shaddy]

Besides, the guy just introduced two new characters with unique and original designs (same for the previous two movies he was involved in) and somehow "diversity in character design" is being affected?

Okay fine, potential character design diversity. It's just not the kind of thing you want to hear in a series that already has a lot of similar antagonists.

Casual sexism? Really?

Yes. Sexism exists in Toriyama's work. It is a thing. Not a surprising one, or a unique one. Not one that necessarily cripples everything he does, but one that should be acknowledged nonetheless. You don't have to hate the series or it's creator for it, I certainly don't, but it exists and we shouldn't pretend it doesn't.

This comment is offhanded and essentially meaningless in the dialogue and context of this movie, true. But it doesn't take that much effort to see where it plays in the rest of Dragon Ball as a franchise, and what it could represent in the greater context of how Toriyama writes is evident.

It's his creation, how he imagined his world, there's nothing wrong basing it on his own opinions.

Yeah but if your opinion is "women and old people are weak and shouldn't be enemies" it kinda hurts your series' potential for worldbuilding and diversity (which is a staple of DB in it's own right, but whatever) and how it's perceived by others. And honestly, I don't think Dragon Ball as a franchise is smart enough to juxtapose this with Cheelai and Lemo respectively being a woman and an old person, especially given that they aren't involved in the combat nor are even really antagonists.

[mute_proxy]

It's his creation, how he imagined his world, there's nothing wrong basing it on his own opinions.

Yeah but if your opinion is "women and old people are weak and shouldn't be enemies" it kinda hurts your series and how it's perceived by others. And honestly, I don't think Dragon Ball as a franchise is smart enough to juxtapose this with Cheelai and Lemo respectively being a woman and an old person, especially given that they aren't involved in the combat nor are even really antagonists.

The opinion is old people and women shouldn't be fighting in the army, not be enemies, which is a very common opinion based mainly on physical capabilities, not sexism. There are strong female fighters in the series. Plenty of them.

[mahakaishin1991]

'Is it sexist?' wasn't really what I was hoping people would take from my posts but ok.

Do we get a power level for Cheelai?