Question Regarding SSJ4

VargVikernes · Post by **VargVikernes** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:48 pm

I have a question regarding Super Saiyajin 4. If a saiyajin that has achieved SSJ4 is to have his tail cut off, what would happen? I realize this is completely non-canon GT stuff, but I was just curious.

Casual Matt · Post by **Casual Matt** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:02 pm

Well, I believe it's implied that a Saiyajin needs a tail to transform into a Super Saiyajin 4 when Vegeta and Goku were fighting Yi Xing Long. At least I don't think Vegeta could change at will because he didn't have a tail.

The first time is obvious since they need to change into an Ozaru first, but after that I think they still need a tail. So if it got cut off, it'd probably have the same effect of an Ozaru's tail being cut off.

Captain Awesome · Post by **Captain Awesome** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:04 pm

That's a good point..

I'm guessing if Goku or Vegeta's tail were cut off, the would revert back to base form, and I make this assumption based just on what I've seen in the show, to transform initially, the Saiya-jin needs a tail.

But Goku for instance doesn't need bruits waves to transform into a Super Saiya-jin 4, so does that simply mean the tail is taken out of the equation?, and actually isn't needed for the transformation?, would it simply grow back if he transformed into an SSJ4?

Anyone with the GT perfect files feel free to chime in (and probably tell me how wrong I am)

*Edit* Casual Matt beat me to it*Edit*

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:13 am

The tail is necessary. A few things to know about Super Saiyan 4:

The first time a Saiyan makes the transformation, they have to undergo the change to Oozaru, then Super Oozaru, then Super Saiyan 4. Once mastered, they can go straight from base to Super Saiyan 4 without the need of the Brute waves.

A common misconception is that Vegeta needed the Brute waves to become Super Saiyan 4. This is only partially true, he needed them intensified enough to stimulate his tail regrowth, and to initiate the first transformation to Oozaru. Notice in that episode that while in Oozaru, he destroys the Brute wave machine.

He has the battle power and the ability to take it the rest of the way entirely on his own. He grabs Goku and focuses on his rivalry over their previous power gap, and it is enough to make him change into Super Oozaru. He then makes the change to Super Saiyan 4 entirely on his own.

So the myth that he somehow "cheated" has always confused me. He needed help regrowing his tail, he did the rest on his own. I seem to recall Goku needing the help of the Kaioshins to regrow his tail as well (which had been sealed away by Kami Piccolo near the end of Dragonball). So I guess he's just as much a "cheater" as Vegeta is, if that's what defines it..

Captain Awesome · Post by **Captain Awesome** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:42 am

I think the original question was that after obtaining SSJ4 (via Golden Oozaru) does the Saiya-jin need his tail to transform?, since Goku can go straight from base for to SSJ4, and if the tail was severed while in Super Saiya-jin 4, would it cause them to revert to their base form.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:41 am

... This makes me wonder...

The description of the Oozaru transformation that Vegeta gave in the Saiyan saga... by this would it be possible for like, Bulma to whip up some Oozarufying steroids to jab in the tailscar or something?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:54 am

caejones wrote:... This makes me wonder...

The description of the Oozaru transformation that Vegeta gave in the Saiyan saga... by this would it be possible for like, Bulma to whip up some Oozarufying steroids to jab in the tailscar or something?

Jabbing a needle straight into the spinal cord - a good idea.

VargVikernes · Post by **VargVikernes** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:28 pm

Captain Awesome wrote:I think the original question was that after obtaining SSJ4 (via Golden Oozaru) does the Saiya-jin need his tail to transform?, since Goku can go straight from base for to SSJ4, and if the tail was severed while in Super Saiya-jin 4, would it cause them to revert to their base form.

This was my original question. I was fully aware that it was neccesary to have the tail to achieve SSJ4, but what would happen if they were to lose their tail while in SSJ4? Would they revert to base form?

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:53 pm

Of course they would, it is a necessary component of the transformation. I meant to convey that in my previous response, and somewhat headed in that direction, but got caught up on my perpetual fan myth debasing. Hey, at least I can even call foul on myself, right?

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:12 pm

While I do not consider the SSj 4 as canon (just a personal opinion), if I must interpret it, I would say that the transformation would indeed revert if the tail is severed.

The reason: I view the SSj 4 as a second stage Ôzaru, because 1) it is attained through an Ôzaru form, 2) it has fur and 3) it has an outline of the red eyes normally associated with Ôzaru. The wild hair is also fitting to an Ôzaru form.

Why I say it is the second Ôzaru stage, rather than the third, is that I view the golden Ôzaru simply as a regular Ôzaru gone Super Saiyan. In this light, it is possible for an Ôzaru to achieve SSj 2 and 3, as well. I've talked about this on many occasions, but I think there's nothing more awesome than a Super Saiyan 3 Ôzaru

just imagine the giant hair of this form! Wouldn't it look übercool? [/fanboy-mode]

Ahem. I hope I'ven't steered your topic too much off... and I hope you find my answer of help

Captain Awesome · Post by **Captain Awesome** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:03 pm

Terra-jin wrote:While I do not consider the SSj 4 as canon (just a personal opinion)

Haha, I think anyone that considers GT canon is pretty optimistic, or just great at ignoring everything thats wrong with it.

(apart from the ending, that was the closure I wanted at the end of Z dammit)

kaioken12 · Post by **kaioken12** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:28 pm

Captain Awesome wrote: (apart from the ending, that was the closure I wanted at the end of Z dammit)

Well, imho it WAS the ending of Z more or less in a fast form. Fusion => loss of fusion => (okay the "SSJ3 vs. Buu" was BEFORE fusion here) => and then Genkidama.

Well, it is not exactly the topic, but reading this question I searched for my video cassettes and watched the last GT episodes.

There I noticed that Vegeta - after reverting back to normal - has no tail anymore oO
Okay, after that he just transforms to good old SSJ2.
This may be because he is tired and cannot go to the maximum anymore or because he doesn't have a tail any longer.

But then again, this is pretty stupid having his tail vanish because of dropping back to normal... but hey, he has somehow his clothes from before back...

But well, whatever the case is. Perhaps this SSJ2 to the end shows that no tail = no SSJ4 - what I wanted to state was that there are many ... bizarre... things that go with it, so I wouldn't really take this as a fact...

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:00 pm

kaioken12 wrote:There I noticed that Vegeta - after reverting back to normal - has no tail anymore oO

There's no hole in his pants, it's probably wrapped around a leg.

...

kaioken12 · Post by **kaioken12** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:35 pm

Rocketman wrote:
kaioken12 wrote:There I noticed that Vegeta - after reverting back to normal - has no tail anymore oO
There's no hole in his pants, it's probably wrapped around a leg.

...

Yeah, it is sad to say so, but especially in these last episodes GT is really crappy concerning... everything.
They just tried to have a nice and fast "Z-like" ending and some things were completely idiotic.

To topic:
I think, you just can't find any answer to your question.
DB, DBZ were not logical everytime (relatively spoken) - but GT is a mess concerning this - so finding an answer to something, that wasn't really explained in this "already-a-mess" GT is very unlikely :/