Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

And that's precisely why the movie can't fit with the anime.

It does. Them not using their higher forms doesn’t change the fact that they needed Gogeta to win.

It does since SSB KKx10/Evolution >> SS Broly.

It doesn’t since regardless, Gogeta is needed to beat Broly.

[dragon boss z]

He saw Freeza soldiers once in his life compared to always seeing his dad I armor. So I don’t find it odd, especially if he doesn’t know Freeza’s Empire was revived since the last time he checked, they all got wiped out. Even in the end of the anime, we don’t even know if he knows Freeza was even revived. Also, even Toriyama knows Shenron grants two wishes based on Resurrection ‘F’.

Maybe, but it's just as much evidence as you trying to use ep 68. There are a few reasons to think it doesn't follow exactly with the anime continuity.
-Kid Vegeta's hair looks like how it did in BoG, not the super anime, or super manga for that matter.
-Trunks not recognizing Frieza soldiers.
-Goku not using kaioken and Vegeta not using SSBE

Broly is just a continuation of the dragon ball story in general. It fits in ok with both the anime, movies, and manga, but there isn't any solid proof saying it fits in with one of them definitively. For all we know they will retell the Broly movie if they start a new series and make that an anime continuation with kaioken and SSBE.

Freeza is an evil mortal who abused the knowledge of the gods. As Gowasu pointed out, it’s the God of Destruction’s job to kill such mortals. So Beerus really should have killed Freeza. Instead, he more or less enable him.

If we go by the super anime, Beerus was just as evil, as he destroyed half a planet because their food was too greasy.

[PFM18]

It does. Them not using their higher forms doesn’t change the fact that they needed Gogeta to win.

Their higher forms were not even acknowledged whatsoever, obviously indicating this does not take place in the anime continuity. Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have resorted to fusion until they exhausted their other options. In this version of their story, they don't have higher forms as other options.

And no, those two quotes you gave dont even remotely indicate this takes place in the anime continuity. They are very obviously reached of outlandish proportions, but Marlowe already went into detail on that.

It really not when the director talked about a plot point from the anime, Toriyama talked about continuing the anime, and one of the major plot points relates to the anime.

So Goku and Vegeta not using their higher forms is a none issue since the narration is always going to be ‘Goku and Vegeta are not strong enough, they need to fuse’. So really don’t need Broly smashing Blue Kaioken to get that point across.

That doesn't equate to continuity. It simply doesn't. That "plotline" being featured by one line from Freeza doesn't somehow in some convoluted way mean that this movie follows the anime continuity. Neither comment is referring to continuity.

So you're just going to ignore what I said and repeat yourself? Okay, cool.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The issue I'm having with the "no straight continuity argument" is that it makes things more complicated than they need to be.

Like, why can't SSB just be at the level it was depicted at in the 2 mediums it appeared in? Not like there's any big difference between anime and manga SSB, so movie SSB ought to be similar in power, right?

And in that case, anime and manga SSG ought to be similar as well.

[PFM18]

The way I see it, Ikari Broly was pretty much even with SSB Goku, then he got 50 times stronger with Super Saiyan.

Even with Kaioken and Evolution, the 2 of them working together wouldn't have been enough to overcome that 50 times difference, thus necessitating Gogeta.

As we see, SS Gogeta is plenty to match up with SS Ikari Broly.

But if Kaioken and Evolution were even an option, why wouldn't they use it? Goku and Vegeta always exhaust all of their other options before they actually use fusion. It would be OOC of them to fuse without at least trying SSBKK and SSBE.

[Hugo Boss]

The issue I'm having with the "no straight continuity argument" is that it makes things more complicated than they need to be.

Like, why can't SSB just be at the level it was depicted at in the 2 mediums it appeared in? Not like there's any big difference between anime and manga SSB, so movie SSB ought to be similar in power, right?

And in that case, anime and manga SSG ought to be similar as well.

I agree with this. There is no reason these forms should work differently in each version. The manga just complicated it with the “completed” Blue form.

Besides, if SSB Goku and Broly rivaled in strength, SS Broly being about 50 times stronger would mean even a kaioken x20 isn’t enough and the evolved Blue form would likely not be that different. Either way, they must have found such a power difference would only cease if they fused or Goku somehow activated Ultra Instinct. Since the latter was unreliable, Goku went with the most effective route.

[ZombieVito]

The way I see it, Ikari Broly was pretty much even with SSB Goku, then he got 50 times stronger with Super Saiyan.

Even with Kaioken and Evolution, the 2 of them working together wouldn't have been enough to overcome that 50 times difference, thus necessitating Gogeta.

As we see, SS Gogeta is plenty to match up with SS Ikari Broly.

Why 50 times over Ikari? Transformations don't stack.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The way I see it, Ikari Broly was pretty much even with SSB Goku, then he got 50 times stronger with Super Saiyan.

Even with Kaioken and Evolution, the 2 of them working together wouldn't have been enough to overcome that 50 times difference, thus necessitating Gogeta.

As we see, SS Gogeta is plenty to match up with SS Ikari Broly.

Why 50 times over Ikari? Transformations don't stack.

Why would it not?

Nothing indicates that the Ikari form can't function as a base form for Super Saiyan to evolve from, and in fact we see that stacking forms DOES work. SS Ikari Broly has a green aura and blank eyes, and his eyes turned red and shattered his normal pupils and irises like the classic Great Ape's do. This indicates that the Super Saiyan form is indeed also using Broly's Great Ape power; he's also still out of control and simplistic in fighting style.

It's like SS4, except the two powers don't fully blend until Broly goes Full-Power.

[HeroR]

That doesn't equate to continuity. It simply doesn't. That "plotline" being featured by one line from Freeza doesn't somehow in some convoluted way mean that this movie follows the anime continuity. Neither comment is referring to continuity.

So you're just going to ignore what I said and repeat yourself? Okay, cool.

If something takes plot elements from a particular continuity it does. The best you can say that it doesn't is 'Goku and Vegeta didn't used their highest power', which really doesn't mean much in the end since the narration was going to be 'Goku and Vegeta form Gogeta' even if Goku had Blue Kaioken x50.

Because you never really addressed my point, especially Shenron's wishes matching the anime and Toriyama outright talks about the anime. Not, his movies or the manga. All I keep seeing is, 'this doesn't count because Goku and Vegeta didn't used their higher forms'.

[HeroR]

He saw Freeza soldiers once in his life compared to always seeing his dad I armor. So I don’t find it odd, especially if he doesn’t know Freeza’s Empire was revived since the last time he checked, they all got wiped out. Even in the end of the anime, we don’t even know if he knows Freeza was even revived. Also, even Toriyama knows Shenron grants two wishes based on Resurrection ‘F’.

Maybe, but it's just as much evidence as you trying to use ep 68. There are a few reasons to think it doesn't follow exactly with the anime continuity.
-Kid Vegeta's hair looks like how it did in BoG, not the super anime, or super manga for that matter.
-Trunks not recognizing Frieza soldiers.
-Goku not using kaioken and Vegeta not using SSBE

Broly is just a continuation of the dragon ball story in general. It fits in ok with both the anime, movies, and manga, but there isn't any solid proof saying it fits in with one of them definitively. For all we know they will retell the Broly movie if they start a new series and make that an anime continuation with kaioken and SSBE.

Freeza is an evil mortal who abused the knowledge of the gods. As Gowasu pointed out, it’s the God of Destruction’s job to kill such mortals. So Beerus really should have killed Freeza. Instead, he more or less enable him.

If we go by the super anime, Beerus was just as evil, as he destroyed half a planet because their food was too greasy.

Most of those examples are very superficial compared to the number of wishes Shenron can grant. Like, does it really make that much of a different what design they used for Kid Vegeta? I mean, they used manga colors for young Freeza. Heck, Freeza's design doesn't match how he looked in the manga chapter of him recalling seeing Bardock (who's in the wrong armor). So does that means that the movie doesn't fit in the manga continuity because of it isn't constant with the manga?

That is really assumption since people thought for sure the manga would retell the movie which is why the TOP was rushed and Toyo just skipped it.

[ZombieVito]

The way I see it, Ikari Broly was pretty much even with SSB Goku, then he got 50 times stronger with Super Saiyan.

Even with Kaioken and Evolution, the 2 of them working together wouldn't have been enough to overcome that 50 times difference, thus necessitating Gogeta.

As we see, SS Gogeta is plenty to match up with SS Ikari Broly.

Why 50 times over Ikari? Transformations don't stack.

Why would it not?

Nothing indicates that the Ikari form can't function as a base form for Super Saiyan to evolve from, and in fact we see that stacking forms DOES work. SS Ikari Broly has a green aura and blank eyes, and his eyes turned red and shattered his normal pupils and irises like the classic Great Ape's do. This indicates that the Super Saiyan form is indeed also using Broly's Great Ape power; he's also still out of control and simplistic in fighting style.

It's like SS4, except the two powers don't fully blend until Broly goes Full-Power.

If this is right then it will bloat everything to hell. Damn.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Why 50 times over Ikari? Transformations don't stack.

Why would it not?

Nothing indicates that the Ikari form can't function as a base form for Super Saiyan to evolve from, and in fact we see that stacking forms DOES work. SS Ikari Broly has a green aura and blank eyes, and his eyes turned red and shattered his normal pupils and irises like the classic Great Ape's do. This indicates that the Super Saiyan form is indeed also using Broly's Great Ape power; he's also still out of control and simplistic in fighting style.

It's like SS4, except the two powers don't fully blend until Broly goes Full-Power.

If this is right then it will bloat everything to hell. Damn.

There's also the fact that base Gogeta was dodging and deflecting SS Ikari's Ki blasts just as easily as SSB Goku was, which would make sense if base Gogeta was about as strong as Ikari Broly.

The scale was already bloated when it was suggested that Fusion SSB "potentially" surpassed Beerus back in the Future Trunks Arc.

[dragon boss z]

Why 50 times over Ikari? Transformations don't stack.

Why would it not?

Nothing indicates that the Ikari form can't function as a base form for Super Saiyan to evolve from, and in fact we see that stacking forms DOES work. SS Ikari Broly has a green aura and blank eyes, and his eyes turned red and shattered his normal pupils and irises like the classic Great Ape's do. This indicates that the Super Saiyan form is indeed also using Broly's Great Ape power; he's also still out of control and simplistic in fighting style.

It's like SS4, except the two powers don't fully blend until Broly goes Full-Power.

If this is right then it will bloat everything to hell. Damn.

The way I see it, his initial ssj is 50x base, but does not stack with his great ape power, but as he fights the powers mix and his full buffed out max power combines both and that's 50x his great ape power, and 500x base.
I think the scaling would go something like
base Goku/Vegeta: 1
ssj Goku/Vegeta: 5
base Broly: 8
SSG Goku/Vegeta: 50
great ape power Broly: 80
SSB Goku/Vegeta: 100
ssj Broly: 400
ssj Gogeta: 500
max ssj Broly: 4,000
SSB Gogeta: 6,000

[ZombieVito]

Why would it not?

Nothing indicates that the Ikari form can't function as a base form for Super Saiyan to evolve from, and in fact we see that stacking forms DOES work. SS Ikari Broly has a green aura and blank eyes, and his eyes turned red and shattered his normal pupils and irises like the classic Great Ape's do. This indicates that the Super Saiyan form is indeed also using Broly's Great Ape power; he's also still out of control and simplistic in fighting style.

It's like SS4, except the two powers don't fully blend until Broly goes Full-Power.

If this is right then it will bloat everything to hell. Damn.

There's also the fact that base Gogeta was dodging and deflecting SS Ikari's Ki blasts just as easily as SSB Goku was, which would make sense if base Gogeta was about as strong as Ikari Broly.

The scale was already bloated when it was suggested that Fusion SSB "potentially" surpassed Beerus back in the Future Trunks Arc.

Base Gogeta dodging the blast doesn't mean anything. Just look at base Goku vs Broly.

The movie bloats everything up even more since now base Vegetto/Gogeta must be stronger than SSB. It wasnt the case before.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

If this is right then it will bloat everything to hell. Damn.

There's also the fact that base Gogeta was dodging and deflecting SS Ikari's Ki blasts just as easily as SSB Goku was, which would make sense if base Gogeta was about as strong as Ikari Broly.

The scale was already bloated when it was suggested that Fusion SSB "potentially" surpassed Beerus back in the Future Trunks Arc.

Base Gogeta dodging the blast doesn't mean anything. Just look at base Goku vs Broly.

The movie bloats everything up even more since now base Vegetto/Gogeta must be stronger than SSB. It wasnt the case before.

I think the signs have been there for awhile.

We have the manga where base Vegito is able to blow off Merged Zamasu's upper body, even if it was a surprise attack. As well, Caulifla and Kale produced Kefla in the anime who was as strong as SSG Goku. Who would've thought that the anime had the more accurate interpretation of Fusion strength?

[dragon boss z]

We have the manga where base Vegito is able to blow off Merged Zamasu's upper body, even if it was a surprise attack. As well, Caulifla and Kale produced Kefla in the anime who was as strong as SSG Goku. Who would've thought that the anime had the more accurate interpretation of Fusion strength?

How was the anime interpretation of fusion strength more accurate?

[Hugo Boss]

We have the manga where base Vegito is able to blow off Merged Zamasu's upper body, even if it was a surprise attack. As well, Caulifla and Kale produced Kefla in the anime who was as strong as SSG Goku. Who would've thought that the anime had the more accurate interpretation of Fusion strength?

How was the anime interpretation of fusion strength more accurate?

Because Toyotaro’s manga and DBS movie replicated the feature in which Fusion gives a boost that rivals or surpasses the god forms. Kefla actually was dominating SSG Goku.

[PFM18]

If this is right then it will bloat everything to hell. Damn.

There's also the fact that base Gogeta was dodging and deflecting SS Ikari's Ki blasts just as easily as SSB Goku was, which would make sense if base Gogeta was about as strong as Ikari Broly.

The scale was already bloated when it was suggested that Fusion SSB "potentially" surpassed Beerus back in the Future Trunks Arc.

Base Gogeta dodging the blast doesn't mean anything. Just look at base Goku vs Broly.

The movie bloats everything up even more since now base Vegetto/Gogeta must be stronger than SSB. It wasnt the case before.

Base Goku vs Broly is a bad example because Goku was also throwing punches with Broly that would trade with him too, it wasn't just a matter of dodging. Base Gogeta was clearly easily dodging Broly's attacks, so that's definitely evidence, but it's so short that it is hard to say exactly.

It never technically showed us the relationship between SSB fusees and Base fusions so it doesn't necessarily change anything from previous cases.

The way I see it, Ikari Broly was pretty much even with SSB Goku, then he got 50 times stronger with Super Saiyan.

Even with Kaioken and Evolution, the 2 of them working together wouldn't have been enough to overcome that 50 times difference, thus necessitating Gogeta.

As we see, SS Gogeta is plenty to match up with SS Ikari Broly.

Why 50 times over Ikari? Transformations don't stack.

Why would it not?

Nothing indicates that the Ikari form can't function as a base form for Super Saiyan to evolve from, and in fact we see that stacking forms DOES work. SS Ikari Broly has a green aura and blank eyes, and his eyes turned red and shattered his normal pupils and irises like the classic Great Ape's do. This indicates that the Super Saiyan form is indeed also using Broly's Great Ape power; he's also still out of control and simplistic in fighting style.

It's like SS4, except the two powers don't fully blend until Broly goes Full-Power.

So then what's the distinction between SSJ Broly and his "SSJ full-power"? Just that he fully blended his Ikari and his SSJ forom? His LSSJ or "Full-power" seemed very different to me rather than a gradual merging amongst his previous forms. Broly goes LSSJ/full-power, and tanks a punch from Gogeta who immediately finds it necessary to go into Blue. Seemed like a gigantic, acute increase in power rather than a gradual merging of power.

But we don't necessarily know what exactly his "full-power" state actually is.

[cantwaitanymore]

The movie is manga continuation as the manga skipped it completely and went to a new arc which means its events are identical to the movie. Perfected SSB Goku and Vegeta vs Broly was the only art we saw in the manga , probably to let us know which form they are using (as they are clearly shown using PSSB). Broly was about equal with PSSB Goku. Base Gogeta was able to deflect like 5 blasts from SSJ Broly while flying and not looking at him, and like 3 more after he turned around with 0 effort. PSSB Goku and Vegeta didnt even attempt to do it. SSJ Broly couldnt even catch up to Base Gogeta until he stopped for a few secs, while Goku and Vegeta couldnt outrun him and barelly got out. PSSB Goku was deflecting Ki blasts from Broly while Broly was powering up and releasing them not targeting them at Goku and Goku was doing it with a lot of effort creating huge effects as he was deflecting. Base Gogeta >>> Ikari Broly ∼ PSSB Goku. Now also the Broly after an aditional 1 hour of fighting is stronger than Broly from before, so
SSJ Broly (vs Gogeta) > SSJ Broly (vs PSSB Goku and Vegeta). Then we have SSJ Broly vs SSJ Gogeta where Gogeta headbuts him in the stomach and then stomps Broly in 2 punches and blasts him continously forcing Broly to power up (not into FPSSJ), so we have SSJ Gogeta >>> SSJ Broly ( initial). Then Broly does a huge power up and Gogeta stomps him even harder. Broly tries to catch him but he cant even see him. At one point he tries grabbing Gogetas head only to realise hes not there and when he turns around hes not there either. Then they clash and Gogeta kicks him straight in the head and Broly pushes him with both legs away from him. As hes trying to hit Gogeta again he cant even see him and Gogeta comes from a different angle and kicks him with both legs. Then they exchange blasts and they break reality. Again Broly cant hit him, while Gogeta hits him in the face and then does a continous spinning attack with both arms similar to Gotenks attack. Gogeta then kicks him in the gut, knocking him away forcing Broly into FPSSJ.
I watched the entire sequence (SSJ Broly vs SSJ Gogeta) in slow mo multiple times. Broly literally doesnt land 1 punch on SSJ Gogeta. The only ones he does are blocked, and thats when Gogeta is powering up, which Gogeta blocks and during one of the exchanges Gogeta blocks Brolys punch with 1 hand. The push away with both legs is also blocked with both hands. So as i have said , Broly literally doesnt land 1 punch on SSJ Gogeta until he goes FPSSJ. Gogeta is literally styling on him during the fight

To sumarise we have SSJ Gogeta >>> SSJ Broly (post power up) >>> SSJ Broly (Inital vs Gogeta) > SSJ Broly ( vs PSSB Goku and Vegeta)

As i have shown people who are saying Base Gogeta isnt stronger than PSSB Goku are ridicoulous.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think people are extrapolating power-ups for Broly where there weren't any really, at least based on what I've been reading.

He got very clear specific ones, rather than incremental ones.

His first was against SS Vegeta, where he gained enough strength in his base form to take on and then surpass Super Saiyan. He then got his first Ikari boost, outstripping SSG Vegeta. He then boosted his Ikari Base further, growing larger and with wilder hair, enough to equal SSB Goku. He then turns Super Saiyan on top of his max Ikari Base, becoming 50 times stronger.

Gogeta shows up and the 2 of them fight equally in terms of raw power as Super Saiyans, though Gogeta does better because he's a smaller opponent with an actual handle on his martial arts and mental stability. In the dimension they break reality into, Broly gains another Ikari boost in his Super Saiyan form, entering Full-Power state and becoming strong enough that Gogeta needs to turn SSB.

From that point on, Gogeta Blue utterly dominates Full-Power Broly, and I don't believe Broly got anymore power-ups after that point.