Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheUltimateNinja]

It'd be pretty cool if the anime had UI Goku and Vegeta losing to SS Broly.

[cantwaitanymore]

If this is right then it will bloat everything to hell. Damn.

There's also the fact that base Gogeta was dodging and deflecting SS Ikari's Ki blasts just as easily as SSB Goku was, which would make sense if base Gogeta was about as strong as Ikari Broly.

The scale was already bloated when it was suggested that Fusion SSB "potentially" surpassed Beerus back in the Future Trunks Arc.

Base Gogeta dodging the blast doesn't mean anything. Just look at base Goku vs Broly.

The movie bloats everything up even more since now base Vegetto/Gogeta must be stronger than SSB. It wasnt the case before.

What makes you say that Base Vegito is stronger than SSB? PSSB Goku (FT arc) = Fused Zamasu, they were dead equal, Goku even used Hakai to blow half of his body.
Base Vegito blew a part of Zamasus body apart but that was a surprise attack, and he didnt even attempt to fight instead he ate a sensu bean and went straight into blue.
Also Kefla was equal to Gohan and they both knock each other out of the ring and they fused as LSSJ Kale and SSJ Caulifla . Why are we even taking anime Kefla as a measurment? Omen UI Goku doesnt even have a fight in the manga, it runs out instantly, while in the anime he fight 2 times and it lasts for a long time. In the anime it even says Potara is their parts added together multiplied by tens of times, and then they make Kefla a huge powerhouse. Anime stuff shouldnt be used for measuring when its so conflicting and incosistent ( to itself even, let alone to the manga)

[cantwaitanymore]

From that point on, Gogeta Blue utterly dominates Full-Power Broly, and I don't believe Broly got anymore power-ups after that point.[/quote]

Literally the biggest power up he had was after his first part of the fight vs Blue Gogeta. I mean how do you even miss that, he is screaming and emitting a huge pulsating aura.
FPSSJ Broly(powered up) > FPSSJ Broly(initial)
And the thing is, Blue Gogeta stomped him even harder after the power up, just like he did in his SSJ

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

From that point on, Gogeta Blue utterly dominates Full-Power Broly, and I don't believe Broly got anymore power-ups after that point.

Literally the biggest power up he had was after his first part of the fight vs Blue Gogeta. I mean how do you even miss that, he is screaming and emitting a huge pulsating aura.
FPSSJ Broly(powered up) > FPSSJ Broly(initial)
And the thing is, Blue Gogeta stomped him even harder after the power up, just like he did in his SSJ[/quote]
Unlike the other power-ups I highlighted, this proposed one doesn't have any accompanying signs of a power-up like his previous boosts did.

No change in physical growth, no Oozaru eyes, nothing. He's just powering back up to full after taking the brunt of Gogeta Blue's Soul Punisher attack. Broly's got a lot of endurance, but not much fighting skill when he's flowing with the uncontrollable power of an Oozaru and Super Saiyan.

To me, it looked more like Broly not giving in to the pain and damage and powering back up to full again to have another go at Gogeta Blue.

[dragon boss z]

Because Toyotaro’s manga and DBS movie replicated the feature in which Fusion gives a boost that rivals or surpasses the god forms. Kefla actually was dominating SSG Goku.

I'm not sure what you are saying anymore. You are saying the manga and dbs movie have fusion that rivals or surpasses god forms, and then you say anime Kefla dominated SSG Goku. So basically you just said all 3 versions have fusions at or above god level.

[cantwaitanymore]

From that point on, Gogeta Blue utterly dominates Full-Power Broly, and I don't believe Broly got anymore power-ups after that point.

Literally the biggest power up he had was after his first part of the fight vs Blue Gogeta. I mean how do you even miss that, he is screaming and emitting a huge pulsating aura.
FPSSJ Broly(powered up) > FPSSJ Broly(initial)
And the thing is, Blue Gogeta stomped him even harder after the power up, just like he did in his SSJ

Unlike the other power-ups I highlighted, this proposed one doesn't have any accompanying signs of a power-up like his previous boosts did.

No change in physical growth, no Oozaru eyes, nothing. He's just powering back up to full after taking the brunt of Gogeta Blue's Soul Punisher attack. Broly's got a lot of endurance, but not much fighting skill when he's flowing with the uncontrollable power of an Oozaru and Super Saiyan.

To me, it looked more like Broly not giving in to the pain and damage and powering back up to full again to have another go at Gogeta Blue.[/quote]


Thats completely your opinion which is baseless as it def is a power up. Can i link stuff on here so i can show you? No need for a physical change to be a power up. Also the part about skill is meaningless. Vegeta stated that Broly is learning as he is fighting, and he also stated that Broly studied how to use his power. The skill had nothing to do with it, he was doing fine even when Vegeta or Goku where stronger, so again its baseless assumptions.

We see him getting stronger as he fights, so its really in line with the story.

[ZombieVito]

We have the manga where base Vegito is able to blow off Merged Zamasu's upper body, even if it was a surprise attack. As well, Caulifla and Kale produced Kefla in the anime who was as strong as SSG Goku. Who would've thought that the anime had the more accurate interpretation of Fusion strength?

Zamasu tells to base Vegetto's face flat out that he's trash in the manga.

Regardless, we know have 3 different fusions that yield different powered bases so I don't think fusion has a set multiplier anymore.

[cantwaitanymore]

We have the manga where base Vegito is able to blow off Merged Zamasu's upper body, even if it was a surprise attack. As well, Caulifla and Kale produced Kefla in the anime who was as strong as SSG Goku. Who would've thought that the anime had the more accurate interpretation of Fusion strength?

Zamasu tells to base Vegetto's face flat out that he's trash in the manga.

Regardless, we know have 3 different fusions that yield different powered bases so I don't think fusion has a set multiplier anymore.

Not really manga is consistent, you just dont want to accept that fusion is stronger than potara

[ZombieVito]

Not really manga is consistent, you just dont want to accept that fusion is stronger than potara

We have official info that says Vegetto = Gogeta and Goku never says or implies that Gogeta is inferior or stronger than Vegetto in the movie.

[cantwaitanymore]

Not really manga is consistent, you just dont want to accept that fusion is stronger than potara

We have official info that says Vegetto = Gogeta and Goku never says or implies that Gogeta is inferior or stronger than Vegetto in the movie.

As Ken Xyro stated and confirmed with multiple translators it wasnt reffering to power. Since i dont know if i can link stuff on here, here is the copy pasted part of the quote:
``Again, equally good does NOT mean equal power level.
They're referring to the techniques (Potara and Fusion) being "equally dependable" and the best trump cards.``
and also : ``Think of this sentence as "Fusion is just as dependable as Potara when it comes to being the ultimate trump card".
When they're referring to power they specifically mention power. The word used here simply means dependable / competent / efficient / qualified.``

We have the WSJ stating that Fusion is stronger and Gogeta would win if they fight, while the only way Vegito could win is if Gogeta defused.
In Super we have a quote stating that potara is their parts added together and multiplied by tens of times. We have also seen Fused Zamasu = PSSB Goku (FT arc) and SSJ Kefla = Gohan
We have seen in the movie that Base Gogeta > PSSB Goku (post ToP). So thats pretty conclusive imo.

[AvatarReiko]

I don't think the difference between LSSJ Broly and SSJB Gogeta is as big as people make it out to be. Sure, Gogeta dominated him but he still had to work for it. The two had been going back and forth for a while and Just look how many attacks it took to take Broly out. For me, a one sided fight is "SSJ2 Gohan vs Cell". Two blows and Cell was pretty much done. If SSJB Gogeta is a 10, LSSJ Broly is a 9

What I want to know is how strong Gogeta's base and SSJ forms are. Base was playfully dancing around SSJ Broly's attacks initially and and outright deflected them with his hand before going SSJ. This was the same Broly who previously massacred SSJB Goku. I'd say SSJ Gogeta is definitely stronger than SSJB Goku. Base Gogeta>SSJB Goku is probably debatable

[cantwaitanymore]

I don't think the difference between LSSJ Broly and SSJB Gogeta is as big as people make it out to be. Sure, Gogeta dominated him but he still had to work for it. The two had been going back and forth for a while and Just look how many attacks it took to take Broly out. For me, a one sided fight is "SSJ2 Gohan vs Cell". Two blows and Cell was pretty much done. If SSJB Gogeta is a 10, LSSJ Broly is a 9

What I want to know is how strong Gogeta's base and SSJ forms are. Base was playfully dancing around SSJ Broly's attacks initially and and outright deflected them with his hand before going SSJ. This was the same Broly who previously massacred SSJB Goku. I'd say SSJ Gogeta is definitely stronger than SSJB Goku. Base Gogeta>SSJB Goku is probably debatable

Read my post on the previous page about this subject. As i explained Base Gogeta > Ikari Broly = PSSB Goku

[Hugo Boss]

Because Toyotaro’s manga and DBS movie replicated the feature in which Fusion gives a boost that rivals or surpasses the god forms. Kefla actually was dominating SSG Goku.

I'm not sure what you are saying anymore. You are saying the manga and dbs movie have fusion that rivals or surpasses god forms, and then you say anime Kefla dominated SSG Goku. So basically you just said all 3 versions have fusions at or above god level.

Exactly. Some people have claimed the anime didn’t got right the boost of a fusion, since SSG was supposed to be a realm beyond that. Turned out it was the opposite.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I don't think the difference between LSSJ Broly and SSJB Gogeta is as big as people make it out to be. Sure, Gogeta dominated him but he still had to work for it. The two had been going back and forth for a while and Just look how many attacks it took to take Broly out. For me, a one sided fight is "SSJ2 Gohan vs Cell". Two blows and Cell was pretty much done. If SSJB Gogeta is a 10, LSSJ Broly is a 9

What I want to know is how strong Gogeta's base and SSJ forms are. Base was playfully dancing around SSJ Broly's attacks initially and and outright deflected them with his hand before going SSJ. This was the same Broly who previously massacred SSJB Goku. I'd say SSJ Gogeta is definitely stronger than SSJB Goku. Base Gogeta>SSJB Goku is probably debatable

Generally, I put SSB Goku/Vegeta, Ikari Broly, and base Gogeta all in the same level.

After that, I put SS Ikari Broly and SS Gogeta on the same level. Following that, Broly's Full-Power state is, to me, only about as strong as SSG since he didn't get any noticeable other power-ups after the initial Oozaru boost into Full-Power. The reason why I think this is the case is the fact that I don't believe a huge power difference always means an instant beatdown. SS2 Gohan vs. Cell isn't representative of the current direction, to me.

To me, Full-Power Broly vs. Gogeta Blue is like seeing a desperate SSG vs SSB. The former is undoubtedly weaker than the latter, but can still manage something and hang in there assuming that the former has enough stamina and endurance. Broly is a TANK, and his imposing physical stature means that he can take a lot of damage even from someone overwhelmingly stronger.

[cantwaitanymore]

I don't think the difference between LSSJ Broly and SSJB Gogeta is as big as people make it out to be. Sure, Gogeta dominated him but he still had to work for it. The two had been going back and forth for a while and Just look how many attacks it took to take Broly out. For me, a one sided fight is "SSJ2 Gohan vs Cell". Two blows and Cell was pretty much done. If SSJB Gogeta is a 10, LSSJ Broly is a 9

What I want to know is how strong Gogeta's base and SSJ forms are. Base was playfully dancing around SSJ Broly's attacks initially and and outright deflected them with his hand before going SSJ. This was the same Broly who previously massacred SSJB Goku. I'd say SSJ Gogeta is definitely stronger than SSJB Goku. Base Gogeta>SSJB Goku is probably debatable

Generally, I put SSB Goku/Vegeta, Ikari Broly, and base Gogeta all in the same level.

After that, I put SS Ikari Broly and SS Gogeta on the same level. Following that, Broly's Full-Power state is, to me, only about as strong as SSG since he didn't get any noticeable other power-ups after the initial Oozaru boost into Full-Power. The reason why I think this is the case is the fact that I don't believe a huge power difference always means an instant beatdown. SS2 Gohan vs. Cell isn't representative of the current direction, to me.

To me, Full-Power Broly vs. Gogeta Blue is like seeing a desperate SSG vs SSB. The former is undoubtedly weaker than the latter, but can still manage something and hang in there assuming that the former has enough stamina and endurance. Broly is a TANK, and his imposing physical stature means that he can take a lot of damage even from someone overwhelmingly stronger.

How can you possibly have SSJ Gogeta = SSJ Broly when Gogeta stomped him in 2 punches, then Broly powered up and he still got styled on. He literally didnt land 1 punch on SSJ Gogeta until he went FPSSJ.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I don't think the difference between LSSJ Broly and SSJB Gogeta is as big as people make it out to be. Sure, Gogeta dominated him but he still had to work for it. The two had been going back and forth for a while and Just look how many attacks it took to take Broly out. For me, a one sided fight is "SSJ2 Gohan vs Cell". Two blows and Cell was pretty much done. If SSJB Gogeta is a 10, LSSJ Broly is a 9

What I want to know is how strong Gogeta's base and SSJ forms are. Base was playfully dancing around SSJ Broly's attacks initially and and outright deflected them with his hand before going SSJ. This was the same Broly who previously massacred SSJB Goku. I'd say SSJ Gogeta is definitely stronger than SSJB Goku. Base Gogeta>SSJB Goku is probably debatable

Generally, I put SSB Goku/Vegeta, Ikari Broly, and base Gogeta all in the same level.

After that, I put SS Ikari Broly and SS Gogeta on the same level. Following that, Broly's Full-Power state is, to me, only about as strong as SSG since he didn't get any noticeable other power-ups after the initial Oozaru boost into Full-Power. The reason why I think this is the case is the fact that I don't believe a huge power difference always means an instant beatdown. SS2 Gohan vs. Cell isn't representative of the current direction, to me.

To me, Full-Power Broly vs. Gogeta Blue is like seeing a desperate SSG vs SSB. The former is undoubtedly weaker than the latter, but can still manage something and hang in there assuming that the former has enough stamina and endurance. Broly is a TANK, and his imposing physical stature means that he can take a lot of damage even from someone overwhelmingly stronger.

How can you possibly have SSJ Gogeta = SSJ Broly when Gogeta stomped him in 2 punches, then Broly powered up and he still got styled on. He literally didnt land 1 punch on SSJ Gogeta until he went FPSSJ.

........And?

SS Ikari Broly was matching SS Gogeta blow for blow when his own size and uncontrollable rage wasn't a hindrance to his combat skill. Their raw strength looked equally matched, but unlike Broly, Gogeta actually knew how to fight and was in control of his mental faculties the entire time. So, whilst Broly might've matched him in raw power, he didn't know how to properly fight against an actual martial artist like Gogeta.

His raw power served him well against Vegeta and Goku initially, but his skills faltered as soon as he lost control of himself. Gogeta wasn't stronger to me, just a better fighter.

[cantwaitanymore]

Generally, I put SSB Goku/Vegeta, Ikari Broly, and base Gogeta all in the same level.

After that, I put SS Ikari Broly and SS Gogeta on the same level. Following that, Broly's Full-Power state is, to me, only about as strong as SSG since he didn't get any noticeable other power-ups after the initial Oozaru boost into Full-Power. The reason why I think this is the case is the fact that I don't believe a huge power difference always means an instant beatdown. SS2 Gohan vs. Cell isn't representative of the current direction, to me.

To me, Full-Power Broly vs. Gogeta Blue is like seeing a desperate SSG vs SSB. The former is undoubtedly weaker than the latter, but can still manage something and hang in there assuming that the former has enough stamina and endurance. Broly is a TANK, and his imposing physical stature means that he can take a lot of damage even from someone overwhelmingly stronger.

How can you possibly have SSJ Gogeta = SSJ Broly when Gogeta stomped him in 2 punches, then Broly powered up and he still got styled on. He literally didnt land 1 punch on SSJ Gogeta until he went FPSSJ.

........And?

SS Ikari Broly was matching SS Gogeta blow for blow when his own size and uncontrollable rage wasn't a hindrance to his combat skill. Their raw strength looked equally matched, but unlike Broly, Gogeta actually knew how to fight and was in control of his mental faculties the entire time. So, whilst Broly might've matched him in raw power, he didn't know how to properly fight against an actual martial artist like Gogeta.

His raw power served him well against Vegeta and Goku initially, but his skills faltered as soon as he lost control of himself. Gogeta wasn't stronger to me, just a better fighter.

Well thats your own headcanon. Broly was doing fine even when he was weaker vs Vegeta and then Goku individually. It wasnt even hinted that he was losing the fight due to him being ``less skilled``. How was he going blow for blow when gogeta literally stomped him and Broly didnt land 1 punch? Explain to me excatly how that is blow for blow. Also Broly powered up when Gogeta was blasting him with that scatteshot type attack and even after that he still couldnt do anything.

[cantwaitanymore]

Generally, I put SSB Goku/Vegeta, Ikari Broly, and base Gogeta all in the same level.

After that, I put SS Ikari Broly and SS Gogeta on the same level. Following that, Broly's Full-Power state is, to me, only about as strong as SSG since he didn't get any noticeable other power-ups after the initial Oozaru boost into Full-Power. The reason why I think this is the case is the fact that I don't believe a huge power difference always means an instant beatdown. SS2 Gohan vs. Cell isn't representative of the current direction, to me.

To me, Full-Power Broly vs. Gogeta Blue is like seeing a desperate SSG vs SSB. The former is undoubtedly weaker than the latter, but can still manage something and hang in there assuming that the former has enough stamina and endurance. Broly is a TANK, and his imposing physical stature means that he can take a lot of damage even from someone overwhelmingly stronger.

How can you possibly have SSJ Gogeta = SSJ Broly when Gogeta stomped him in 2 punches, then Broly powered up and he still got styled on. He literally didnt land 1 punch on SSJ Gogeta until he went FPSSJ.

........And?

SS Ikari Broly was matching SS Gogeta blow for blow when his own size and uncontrollable rage wasn't a hindrance to his combat skill. Their raw strength looked equally matched, but unlike Broly, Gogeta actually knew how to fight and was in control of his mental faculties the entire time. So, whilst Broly might've matched him in raw power, he didn't know how to properly fight against an actual martial artist like Gogeta.

His raw power served him well against Vegeta and Goku initially, but his skills faltered as soon as he lost control of himself. Gogeta wasn't stronger to me, just a better fighter.

And also, its stated that Broly adapted quickly. Vegeta stated that Broly is learning as hes fighting and he also stated that Broly STUDIED how to use his power, so its def not going to waste. Frieza stated and i quote : ``Your son seems adept to brawling himself, and yet Broly has never fought anyone `` to which Paragus responds that he has fought only him in training matches, and to that Frieza responds : ``Fighting someone of your power level is meaningless. Not to worry, hes obviously quick to adapt.`` The skill gap vanished in the beggining of the fight vs Vegeta. Gogeta fight took place hours after. So as i said its your headcannon that Broly was losing due to skill not power.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

How can you possibly have SSJ Gogeta = SSJ Broly when Gogeta stomped him in 2 punches, then Broly powered up and he still got styled on. He literally didnt land 1 punch on SSJ Gogeta until he went FPSSJ.

........And?

SS Ikari Broly was matching SS Gogeta blow for blow when his own size and uncontrollable rage wasn't a hindrance to his combat skill. Their raw strength looked equally matched, but unlike Broly, Gogeta actually knew how to fight and was in control of his mental faculties the entire time. So, whilst Broly might've matched him in raw power, he didn't know how to properly fight against an actual martial artist like Gogeta.

His raw power served him well against Vegeta and Goku initially, but his skills faltered as soon as he lost control of himself. Gogeta wasn't stronger to me, just a better fighter.

And also, its stated that Broly adapted quickly. Vegeta stated that Broly is learning as hes fighting and he also stated that Broly STUDIED how to use his power, so its def not going to waste. Frieza stated and i quote : ``Your son seems adept to brawling himself, and yet Broly has never fought anyone `` to which Paragus responds that he has fought only him in training matches, and to that Frieza responds : ``Fighting someone of your power level is meaningless. Not to worry, hes obviously quick to adapt.`` The skill gap vanished in the beggining of the fight vs Vegeta. Gogeta fight took place hours after. So as i said its your headcannon that Broly was losing due to skill not power.

Except that Broly had JUST turned Super Saiyan a few minutes before AND was flowing with the uncontrollable Oozaru power. He was undergoing MAXIMUM UNCONTROLLABLE RAGE at that point in the fight. Back when he fought Vegeta, he was in his base form and still had control over his faculties. It'd be LESS believable to say he had any handle on martial arts at this point in the fight. He's grieving and angry and already can't control himself.

But Gogeta? He's cool-headed, has the strengths of Goku and Vegeta with none of the usual weaknesses, and the numerical facts of the matter mean that Gogeta couldn't really be much stronger than Broly at all for him to necessitate SSB against Full-Power Broly, an Oozaru-based increase from SS Ikari Broly.

[cantwaitanymore]

........And?

SS Ikari Broly was matching SS Gogeta blow for blow when his own size and uncontrollable rage wasn't a hindrance to his combat skill. Their raw strength looked equally matched, but unlike Broly, Gogeta actually knew how to fight and was in control of his mental faculties the entire time. So, whilst Broly might've matched him in raw power, he didn't know how to properly fight against an actual martial artist like Gogeta.

His raw power served him well against Vegeta and Goku initially, but his skills faltered as soon as he lost control of himself. Gogeta wasn't stronger to me, just a better fighter.

And also, its stated that Broly adapted quickly. Vegeta stated that Broly is learning as hes fighting and he also stated that Broly STUDIED how to use his power, so its def not going to waste. Frieza stated and i quote : ``Your son seems adept to brawling himself, and yet Broly has never fought anyone `` to which Paragus responds that he has fought only him in training matches, and to that Frieza responds : ``Fighting someone of your power level is meaningless. Not to worry, hes obviously quick to adapt.`` The skill gap vanished in the beggining of the fight vs Vegeta. Gogeta fight took place hours after. So as i said its your headcannon that Broly was losing due to skill not power.

Except that Broly had JUST turned Super Saiyan a few minutes before AND was flowing with the uncontrollable Oozaru power. He was undergoing MAXIMUM UNCONTROLLABLE RAGE at that point in the fight. Back when he fought Vegeta, he was in his base form and still had control over his faculties. It'd be LESS believable to say he had any handle on martial arts at this point in the fight. He's grieving and angry and already can't control himself.

But Gogeta? He's cool-headed, has the strengths of Goku and Vegeta with none of the usual weaknesses, and the numerical facts of the matter mean that Gogeta couldn't really be much stronger than Broly at all for him to necessitate SSB against Full-Power Broly, an Oozaru-based increase from SS Ikari Broly.

Did you even watch the movie? 3 hours pass before he fights Gogeta, while he was stomping Frieza. They fused 2 times and it failed and 1 hour of waiting time in between. 1h30 + 1h30 = 3h
Also at no point was it stated or hinted that his rage is hindering his fight, in fact it increases along with his power. He was able to go SSJ only because of his rage when Frieza killed Paragus.