Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[dragon boss z]

Exactly. Some people have claimed the anime didn’t got right the boost of a fusion, since SSG was supposed to be a realm beyond that. Turned out it was the opposite.

But you said the anime was more accurate, so I asked why. Saying all of them are accurate, or one is more accurate than the other, are two different things.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Spoiler:

And also, its stated that Broly adapted quickly. Vegeta stated that Broly is learning as hes fighting and he also stated that Broly STUDIED how to use his power, so its def not going to waste. Frieza stated and i quote : ``Your son seems adept to brawling himself, and yet Broly has never fought anyone `` to which Paragus responds that he has fought only him in training matches, and to that Frieza responds : ``Fighting someone of your power level is meaningless. Not to worry, hes obviously quick to adapt.`` The skill gap vanished in the beggining of the fight vs Vegeta. Gogeta fight took place hours after. So as i said its your headcannon that Broly was losing due to skill not power.

Except that Broly had JUST turned Super Saiyan a few minutes before AND was flowing with the uncontrollable Oozaru power. He was undergoing MAXIMUM UNCONTROLLABLE RAGE at that point in the fight. Back when he fought Vegeta, he was in his base form and still had control over his faculties. It'd be LESS believable to say he had any handle on martial arts at this point in the fight. He's grieving and angry and already can't control himself.

But Gogeta? He's cool-headed, has the strengths of Goku and Vegeta with none of the usual weaknesses, and the numerical facts of the matter mean that Gogeta couldn't really be much stronger than Broly at all for him to necessitate SSB against Full-Power Broly, an Oozaru-based increase from SS Ikari Broly.

Did you even watch the movie? 3 hours pass before he fights Gogeta, while he was stomping Frieza. They fused 2 times and it failed and 1 hour of waiting time in between. 1h30 + 1h30 = 3h
Also at no point was it stated or hinted that his rage is hindering his fight, in fact it increases along with his power. He was able to go SSJ only because of his rage when Frieza killed Paragus.

I did. I can rewatch the fight right now if I need to.

Freeza isn't as strong as Broly, nor is he as skilled a fighter as Goku, yet he still hung on. Also, again, no shown or stated fighting skill adaptation was hinted at at all during his tenure as a raging Super Saiyan compared to his base form or even his Ikari form.

Gogeta's strength wasn't shown to surpass Broly until SSB Gogeta took to the stage and dominated Full-Power Broly. It's a bigger beatdown in SSB against Full-Power than it was in SS against SS.

[cantwaitanymore]

Spoiler:

Except that Broly had JUST turned Super Saiyan a few minutes before AND was flowing with the uncontrollable Oozaru power. He was undergoing MAXIMUM UNCONTROLLABLE RAGE at that point in the fight. Back when he fought Vegeta, he was in his base form and still had control over his faculties. It'd be LESS believable to say he had any handle on martial arts at this point in the fight. He's grieving and angry and already can't control himself.

But Gogeta? He's cool-headed, has the strengths of Goku and Vegeta with none of the usual weaknesses, and the numerical facts of the matter mean that Gogeta couldn't really be much stronger than Broly at all for him to necessitate SSB against Full-Power Broly, an Oozaru-based increase from SS Ikari Broly.

Did you even watch the movie? 3 hours pass before he fights Gogeta, while he was stomping Frieza. They fused 2 times and it failed and 1 hour of waiting time in between. 1h30 + 1h30 = 3h
Also at no point was it stated or hinted that his rage is hindering his fight, in fact it increases along with his power. He was able to go SSJ only because of his rage when Frieza killed Paragus.

I did. I can rewatch the fight right now if I need to.

Freeza isn't as strong as Broly, nor is he as skilled a fighter as Goku, yet he still hung on. Also, again, no shown or stated fighting skill adaptation was hinted at at all during his tenure as a raging Super Saiyan compared to his base form or even his Ikari form.

Gogeta's strength wasn't shown to surpass Broly until SSB Gogeta took to the stage and dominated Full-Power Broly. It's a bigger beatdown in SSB against Full-Power than it was in SS against SS.

Well since you ignore facts and just keep on rolling with your thing its pointless to debate that further, believe whatever you want.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Spoiler:

Did you even watch the movie? 3 hours pass before he fights Gogeta, while he was stomping Frieza. They fused 2 times and it failed and 1 hour of waiting time in between. 1h30 + 1h30 = 3h
Also at no point was it stated or hinted that his rage is hindering his fight, in fact it increases along with his power. He was able to go SSJ only because of his rage when Frieza killed Paragus.

I did. I can rewatch the fight right now if I need to.

Freeza isn't as strong as Broly, nor is he as skilled a fighter as Goku, yet he still hung on. Also, again, no shown or stated fighting skill adaptation was hinted at at all during his tenure as a raging Super Saiyan compared to his base form or even his Ikari form.

Gogeta's strength wasn't shown to surpass Broly until SSB Gogeta took to the stage and dominated Full-Power Broly. It's a bigger beatdown in SSB against Full-Power than it was in SS against SS.

Well since you ignore facts and just keep on rolling with your thing its pointless to debate that further, believe whatever you want.

Man, chill out. We ALL know that we all believe we're rolling with the facts because things are never crystal clear enough to warrant "THIS IS SET IN STONE FOREVER!".

You think you're prancing around knowing "the truth", just like me, just like everybody else. Yet the fact that we can watch the exact same thing and have entirely different conclusions makes it clear that "the objective truth of the matter" isn't so objective after all. Seriously, I have literally rewatched it right beforehand, and nothing's changed.

[cantwaitanymore]

I did. I can rewatch the fight right now if I need to.

Freeza isn't as strong as Broly, nor is he as skilled a fighter as Goku, yet he still hung on. Also, again, no shown or stated fighting skill adaptation was hinted at at all during his tenure as a raging Super Saiyan compared to his base form or even his Ikari form.

Gogeta's strength wasn't shown to surpass Broly until SSB Gogeta took to the stage and dominated Full-Power Broly. It's a bigger beatdown in SSB against Full-Power than it was in SS against SS.

Well since you ignore facts and just keep on rolling with your thing its pointless to debate that further, believe whatever you want.

Man, chill out. We ALL know that we all believe we're rolling with the facts because things are never crystal clear enough to warrant "THIS IS SET IN STONE FOREVER!".

You think you're prancing around knowing "the truth", just like me, just like everybody else. Yet the fact that we can watch the exact same thing and have entirely different conclusions makes it clear that "the objective truth of the matter" isn't so objective after all. Seriously, I have literally rewatched it right beforehand, and nothing's changed.

Not really, there is an objective truth, you just have ur own opinion and as i have just pointed out your opinion is baseless.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Well since you ignore facts and just keep on rolling with your thing its pointless to debate that further, believe whatever you want.

Man, chill out. We ALL know that we all believe we're rolling with the facts because things are never crystal clear enough to warrant "THIS IS SET IN STONE FOREVER!".

You think you're prancing around knowing "the truth", just like me, just like everybody else. Yet the fact that we can watch the exact same thing and have entirely different conclusions makes it clear that "the objective truth of the matter" isn't so objective after all. Seriously, I have literally rewatched it right beforehand, and nothing's changed.

Not really, there is an objective truth, you just have ur own opinion and as i have just pointed out your opinion is baseless.

Yeah, and how did you do that?

What DEFINITIVE PROOF have you come up with that uses specific dialogue quotes, authoritarian statements from the creators, scene-by-scene breakdowns, etc., to definitely prove me wrong? You just said I'm ignoring facts, even though I brought up specific instances from the movie that I specifically watched beforehand, combined with basic interpretative analysis through contextual reading and narrative breakdown.

[cantwaitanymore]

Man, chill out. We ALL know that we all believe we're rolling with the facts because things are never crystal clear enough to warrant "THIS IS SET IN STONE FOREVER!".

You think you're prancing around knowing "the truth", just like me, just like everybody else. Yet the fact that we can watch the exact same thing and have entirely different conclusions makes it clear that "the objective truth of the matter" isn't so objective after all. Seriously, I have literally rewatched it right beforehand, and nothing's changed.

Not really, there is an objective truth, you just have ur own opinion and as i have just pointed out your opinion is baseless.

Yeah, and how did you do that?

What DEFINITIVE PROOF have you come up with that uses specific dialogue quotes, authoritarian statements from the creators, scene-by-scene breakdowns, etc., to definitely prove me wrong? You just said I'm ignoring facts, even though I brought up specific instances from the movie that I specifically watched beforehand, combined with basic interpretative analysis through contextual reading and narrative breakdown.

What??? Lmao, i literally did all the quotes, i broke the entire fight down 2 pages before. All you did was say that you believe they are equal because Broly isnt as skilled Gogeta. Equal fight was Ikari Broly vs PSSB Goku buddy, that was back and fort, while Broly didnt land a punch on Gogeta. Go back 2 pages before and read my entire breakdown. You LITERALLY didnt bring up ANYTHING.
Look at what you have stated : ``Gogeta does better because he's a smaller opponent with an actual handle on his martial arts and mental stability``
COMPLETELY baseless, nowhere is it stated, hinted or implied. Ur opinion, ur headcanon. As i said Broly DIDNT LAND A SINGLE PUNCH, watch the whole fight in slow mo and read my breakdown from 2 pages before and QUOTE me on the parts you deem are false. HE was the one forced to power up TO FPSSJ after Gogeta literally styled on him doing a spinning backfist attack with both hands, similar to Gotenks` attack with one hand spinning. He was toying with him the whole fight, and once they went Blue and FPSSJ he went for the kill.

[Kenneth La Torre]

If we go by the novel, that is just the movie but detailed even further, then ssj gogeta was slightly edging out ssj broly. Golden Freeza is hinted to possibly be beyond ssb goku and vegeta individually, and SSB Gogeta is an incredible powerhouse.

https://www.narutoforums.org/threads/dr ... s.1158464/

Translations of the figh if anyone wants to see.

[SaiyanGod117]

Because Toyotaro’s manga and DBS movie replicated the feature in which Fusion gives a boost that rivals or surpasses the god forms. Kefla actually was dominating SSG Goku.

I'm not sure what you are saying anymore. You are saying the manga and dbs movie have fusion that rivals or surpasses god forms, and then you say anime Kefla dominated SSG Goku. So basically you just said all 3 versions have fusions at or above god level.

Exactly. Some people have claimed the anime didn’t got right the boost of a fusion, since SSG was supposed to be a realm beyond that. Turned out it was the opposite.

It obviously got retconned due by the writer of that episode, as it wasn't like this from the beginning. I'm not going to say it got retconned by Toriyama since Kefla in the manga was only a match for Gohan, and in the movie, it's quite ambiguous how strong base Goku and Vegeta are.

[PFM18]

I'm not sure what you are saying anymore. You are saying the manga and dbs movie have fusion that rivals or surpasses god forms, and then you say anime Kefla dominated SSG Goku. So basically you just said all 3 versions have fusions at or above god level.

Exactly. Some people have claimed the anime didn’t got right the boost of a fusion, since SSG was supposed to be a realm beyond that. Turned out it was the opposite.

It obviously got retconned due by the writer of that episode, as it wasn't like this from the beginning. I'm not going to say it got retconned by Toriyama since Kefla in the manga was only a match for Gohan, and in the movie, it's quite ambiguous how strong base Goku and Vegeta are.

It's not a retcon, it's just that SSG achieved from the ritual had a higher multiplier than when they were able to tap back into it later.

[SaiyanGod117]

So are you saying the SSG from BOG is stronger than the SSG from the Universal Survival Arc? If you're that's false.

[PFM18]

So are you saying the SSG from BOG is stronger than the SSG from the Universal Survival Arc? If you're that's false.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the multiplier is dramatically higher according to what we've seen. Goku "made the power his own" after he merged with the power of SSG, and ever since that point it has seemingly been a lesser multiplier. And it makes intuitive sense considering that he already, to some extent, "has" that power.

[SaiyanGod117]

So are you saying the SSG from BOG is stronger than the SSG from the Universal Survival Arc? If you're that's false.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the multiplier is dramatically higher according to what we've seen. Goku "made the power his own" after he merged with the power of SSG, and ever since that point it has seemingly been a lesser multiplier. And it makes intuitive sense considering that he already, to some extent, "has" that power.

There's nothing concrete to say that, more else due to Super's sketchy writing Goku's power level changes like the wisp of the wind. We don't know how strong his base is at this point; it goes from being weaker than FF Frieza to stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks to stronger than SSG to stronger than SSB to everything in between. Additionally, fusion must have been retconned, since before Goku implied a fusion wouldn't be a match for heavily suppressed Beerus. Whereas, now we see a fusion of two far weaker characters far exceed the power of SSG in base and approach God of Destruction level in SSJ2.

[ssj3kakarot]

1st, people who keep calling Anime episodes filler, stop. Just stop. They aren't filler. Just because they don't fit your power scale or some other reason, they are valid, and as concrete as any other episode Super has produced. This isn't Dbz manga vs Dbz Anime.

Another interesting part that I think is more my own head cannon than anything really, but please come along on the Magic School bus for a ride.

Let me start out stating I still believe Beerus is stronger than the likes of Broly. Beerus can obviously sense whats going on this whole time, but he has Bra to take care of. But why sideline Beerus? Well, there could be a couple reason. Either the story wants to keep Beerus status a mystery as far as power levels and so no direct comparison is going to be made for the time being. Because there isn't any real tension when Beerus is involved because he will just win, or get mad and destroy the annoyance, and thats lame. We know that Beerus and Whis love the food on Earth and have started to grow fond of the Z-team. They are protective of this planet and people. If Beerus felt his assets were truly in danger, big purple would have settled matters. That doesn't progress the characters though, and makes for a lame movie, so i feel they sidelined him with baby sitting because of those reasons.

[ssj3kakarot]

So are you saying the SSG from BOG is stronger than the SSG from the Universal Survival Arc? If you're that's false.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the multiplier is dramatically higher according to what we've seen. Goku "made the power his own" after he merged with the power of SSG, and ever since that point it has seemingly been a lesser multiplier. And it makes intuitive sense considering that he already, to some extent, "has" that power.

There's nothing concrete to say that, more else due to Super's sketchy writing Goku's power level changes like the wisp of the wind. We don't know how strong his base is at this point; it goes from being weaker than FF Frieza to stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks to stronger than SSG to stronger than SSB to everything in between. Additionally, fusion must have been retconned, since before Goku implied a fusion wouldn't be a match for heavily suppressed Beerus. Whereas, now we see a fusion of two far weaker characters far exceed the power of SSG in base and approach God of Destruction level in SSJ2.

I dont think it was retconned actually.

The way I've come to look at fusion is something like this: BoG= Base Vegitto >> Max ssj3Goku + max ss2 Vegeta ( and some sort of boost)

So Broly movie you have to take into consideration that max level of the 2 people fusing. So Base Gogetta >> Max SSB Goku + Max SSB Vegeta ( and some sort of boost)

If anything Broly is a freak of nature to even be able to stand up against a SS Gogetta, let a lone SSB Gogetta. That and fusion is pretty broken, haha.

[dragon boss z]

1st, people who keep calling Anime episodes filler, stop. Just stop. They aren't filler. Just because they don't fit your power scale or some other reason, they are valid, and as concrete as any other episode Super has produced. This isn't Dbz manga vs Dbz Anime.

It depends on what your definition of filler is. All episodes in super follow one continuity, so when it comes to the anime itself, yes they are "canon".
However they could be considered "filler" as in they are episodes meant to drag out the series and did not come from Toriyama. There are also filler references from Z. That does not make those fillers now "canon", it just means they are apart of the Super anime continuity.
There is really no actual 100% canon, but I agree, the anime original episodes are valid to use for the anime. However you can't use anime original materiel to validate the powerscaling in the original manga or other dragon ball media.

[SaiyanGod117]

It must have been because Goku, Beerus, and general statements heavily implied SSG was stronger than Fusion by a significant amount. If Fusion were as strong as people are suggesting it to be, then there would have been no need for Gotenks to go SSJ3 against Super Buu or Vegito to go SSJ against Buuhan. After all, Kefla is a prime example of that.

The way I've come to look at fusion is something like this: BoG= Base Vegitto >> Max ssj3Goku + max ss2 Vegeta ( and some sort of boost)

I was under the impression fusion fused the fusees base powers, not their strongest forms? I could be wrong.

If anything Broly is a freak of nature to even be able to stand up against a SS Gogetta, let a lone SSB Gogetta. That and fusion is pretty broken, haha.

I ascribe it to DGAF writing, but I agree they're both pretty ridiculous.

[dragon boss z]

It must have been because Goku, Beerus, and general statements heavily implied SSG was stronger than Fusion by a significant amount. If Fusion were as strong as people are suggesting it to be, then there would have been no need for Gotenks to go SSJ3 against Super Buu or Vegito to go SSJ against Buuhan. After all, Kefla is a prime example of that.

I don't remember Beerus saying anything about fusion. Just Goku saying that it probably wouldn't be enough.
AS for why Gotenks needed ssj3, I think it's because Goten and Trunks are way weaker than most people think, as I believe they are below end of namek saga Goku, and as for Vegito going ssj against Buuhan, he did that just to stomp him. He was so much stronger that he retained his powers even after being turned into a candy.

The way I've come to look at fusion is something like this: BoG= Base Vegitto >> Max ssj3Goku + max ss2 Vegeta ( and some sort of boost)

I was under the impression fusion fused the fusees base powers, not their strongest forms? I could be wrong.

It was implied it was based off of max power in the super manga. And that could actually make sense if we look at it this way.
base Vegeito was stronger than ssj3 Goku (stated by daizenshuu), and backed up by the anime
base Kefla was stronger than berserk Kale, who was able to fight SSG Goku, so if base Kefla is stronger than berserk Kale there would be a good chance of her being stronger than SSG Goku as well
base Gogeta seems to be stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta in Broly, and base Vegito seemed stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta in the super manga
So it does seem the strength of the of the final forms of the people fusing may affect the fusion in general.

[SaiyanGod117]

I don't remember Beerus saying anything about fusion.

No, he didn't say anything about Fusion, but he did comment on the power of SSG and said how it made Goku the strongest or second strongest opponent he came up against. And considering Rage Vegeta made him use 1/10th of his power, and Goku thought a Fusion against him would be useless when he was using than 10% of power. Then, I would say it's pretty evident that SSG far exceeds pre-retcon Fusion by a lot, also mind you Toriyama penned both of those statements in the movie and anime. SSG was intended to surpass anything that came before it, if fusion were a viable option, then Toriyama would have made Goku and Vegeta Fuse against Beerus. Above all, to think Z Vegito in 1995 is suppose to be that strong isn't even a stretch, it's unbelievable.

AS for why Gotenks needed ssj3, I think it's because Goten and Trunks are way weaker than most people think, as I as I believe they are below end of namek saga Goku,

Well even if they were that weak, they still should have been able to stomp Buu with no difficulty. After all, the fusion made Kale and Caulifa God of Destruction tie, and the fact that they needed to go all the way up to SSJ3 should debunk the idea Fusion was as strong as it's now.

as I believe they are below end of namek saga Goku, and as for Vegito going ssj against Buuhan, he did that just to stomp him.

He should have been able to stomp him in base.

It was implied it was based off of max power in the super manga.

Anime and manga are two different continuities, and Kefla stalemated with Gohan in the manga.

base was stronger than ssj3 Goku (stated by daizenshuu), and backed up by the anime

It's probable but Toriyama didn't write the Daizenshuu and anime fillers are noncanon.

base Kefla was stronger than berserk Kale, who was able to fight SSG Goku, so if base Kefla is stronger than berserk Kale there would be a good chance of her being stronger than SSG Goku as well

But the thing is SSJ2 Goku was able to fight Kale and Caulifa at the same time, and SSJ3 shook off both of there blast by merely powering up. We also have to take into account Goku was incredibly fatigued, and he took one of Kale's blast directly in the face as an SSG and took no damage. So, it seems she's far below SSG.

base Gogeta seems to be stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta in Broly, and base Vegito seemed stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta in the super manga

We didn't see enough of Vegito to really say that, as all he did was blast an unsuspected Zamasu.

So it does seem the strength of the of the final forms of the people fusing may affect the fusion in general.

Maybe, but there's nothing definitive.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Not really, there is an objective truth, you just have ur own opinion and as i have just pointed out your opinion is baseless.

Yeah, and how did you do that?

What DEFINITIVE PROOF have you come up with that uses specific dialogue quotes, authoritarian statements from the creators, scene-by-scene breakdowns, etc., to definitely prove me wrong? You just said I'm ignoring facts, even though I brought up specific instances from the movie that I specifically watched beforehand, combined with basic interpretative analysis through contextual reading and narrative breakdown.

What??? Lmao, i literally did all the quotes, i broke the entire fight down 2 pages before. All you did was say that you believe they are equal because Broly isnt as skilled Gogeta. Equal fight was Ikari Broly vs PSSB Goku buddy, that was back and fort, while Broly didnt land a punch on Gogeta. Go back 2 pages before and read my entire breakdown. You LITERALLY didnt bring up ANYTHING.
Look at what you have stated : ``Gogeta does better because he's a smaller opponent with an actual handle on his martial arts and mental stability``
COMPLETELY baseless, nowhere is it stated, hinted or implied. Ur opinion, ur headcanon. As i said Broly DIDNT LAND A SINGLE PUNCH, watch the whole fight in slow mo and read my breakdown from 2 pages before and QUOTE me on the parts you deem are false. HE was the one forced to power up TO FPSSJ after Gogeta literally styled on him doing a spinning backfist attack with both hands, similar to Gotenks` attack with one hand spinning. He was toying with him the whole fight, and once they went Blue and FPSSJ he went for the kill.

Try and structure things without as much 133t speak and whatnot, will ya?

When the 2 are exchanging blows in classic DB fashion, the two of them demonstrate equal strength during their flurries. As well, SS Gogeta's attacks weren't doing as much damage to SS Ikari Broly as SSB Gogeta was to Full-Power Broly. During the first part of their fight, Broly was able to blow back that huge barrage of Ki blasts that Gogeta fired upon him after the latter had heavily charged it up easily enough and resisted the blasts better than when Gogeta Blue did the same thing against Full-Power Broly. Additionally, the two of them have equal speed throughout the fight, producing after-images and keeping up with each other at relative levels.

In addition to that, the two of them fire their respective blasts at each other and break the dimensional fabric; neither blast overpowers the other, showing that they're relatively even. Finally, Broly IS berserk and can't control himself. Early on when Broly first uses his Oozaru power, Paragus notes that Broly loses all control. Nothing in the overall fight contradicts this notion, and in fact we see that this uncontrollable berserk is ramped up when Freeza kills Paragus and Broly turns Super Saiyan. We know that when Saiyans rage out into Super Saiyans for the first time, they become extremely rage-fueled and more ferocious when they fight. Combine this with Broly's already uncontrolled Great Ape power, and you have a recipe for disaster. We even see that SS Broly doesn't discriminate, going after Freeza after simply being baited into going after him by Goku and Vegeta despite having not actually done anything that Broly knew of, as well as Whis who was simply in the vicinity that Broly was in.

So, when Broly is fighting Gogeta, he has no sense of self and is effectively mindless, meaning he likely doesn't showcase the kind of combat adaptability that he showed against Vegeta early on and instead relies on raw power and ferocity. A mindless beast is dangerous but easily predicted and countered.