Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

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Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:13 am

This is a strange question that only just occurred to me whilst watching DBZ Kai with a friend today before seeing the Broly movie. Is the audio quality of the Kikuchi replacement score in Kai any better than the original Z anime?

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Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by DHM211 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:02 am

Compared to the Optical Japanese audio and Funimations shitty 5.1 audio mix for the Orange Bricks/Blu-Rays? Yeah, Kai Kikuchi sounds better.

However, when compared to Dragon Box the movies, they sound pretty much identical.

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Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:35 am

The Kikuchi score in Kai does sound great but it's usually the same BGMs throughout an episode.

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Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:17 pm

JohnnyCashKami wrote:The Kikuchi score in Kai does sound great but it's usually the same BGMs throughout an episode.
Haha, I'm not disputing that!

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Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by Metalwario64 » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:02 pm

KBABZ wrote:This is a strange question that only just occurred to me whilst watching DBZ Kai with a friend today before seeing the Broly movie. Is the audio quality of the Kikuchi replacement score in Kai any better than the original Z anime?
Yes, because the series uses the old M&E tapes and the tracks in Kai are either from the music CDs or whatever source (maybe digitally at this point) they had them stored on.
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Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by ManuGem » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:20 pm

One thing I noticed (but I watched Kai only by streaming wabsites + excerpts on youtube) is that these BGMs from Kikuchi in Kai seem pretty low pitched, compared to the original, that sounds often almost half a tone lower.

It's disturbing, because when DBZ was on french television, it was exactly the opposite: the BGM sounded high-pitched, I think it's because of a difference in format (number of images per second) compared to japanese television.
Many of these BGMs are in F minor, so I used to hear them in F sharp minor on TV, then I rediscovered them in F minor with CDs and internet ... And now I hear them almost in E minor in Kai: -)

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Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by gokaiblue » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:22 pm

ManuGem wrote:One thing I noticed (but I watched Kai only by streaming wabsites + excerpts on youtube) is that these BGMs from Kikuchi in Kai seem pretty low pitched, compared to the original, that sounds often almost half a tone lower.

It's disturbing, because when DBZ was on french television, it was exactly the opposite: the BGM sounded high-pitched, I think it's because of a difference in format (number of images per second) compared to japanese television.
Many of these BGMs are in F minor, so I used to hear them in F sharp minor on TV, then I rediscovered them in F minor with CDs and internet ... And now I hear them almost in E minor in Kai: -)
Never noticed that. Will have to take another listen to them.
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Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by Danfun64 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:29 am

Strange. It always seemed to me that the music in Kikuchi Kai was the right pitch. Maybe the sources you watch Kai in have it sped up to 25fps without changing pitch, then reverting to 24fps or 24000/1001 fps with a pitch change.
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Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by ManuGem » Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:54 am

Danfun64 wrote:Strange. It always seemed to me that the music in Kikuchi Kai was the right pitch. Maybe the sources you watch Kai in have it sped up to 25fps without changing pitch, then reverting to 24fps or 24000/1001 fps with a pitch change.
Yes, it's possible. Anyway, with the sources I used, I'm sure of what I observed (although it may not be quite a semitone, but it was really low pitched)

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Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by SqueakyBoots » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:08 pm

ManuGem wrote:One thing I noticed (but I watched Kai only by streaming wabsites + excerpts on youtube) is that these BGMs from Kikuchi in Kai seem pretty low pitched, compared to the original, that sounds often almost half a tone lower.

It's disturbing, because when DBZ was on french television, it was exactly the opposite: the BGM sounded high-pitched, I think it's because of a difference in format (number of images per second) compared to japanese television.
Many of these BGMs are in F minor, so I used to hear them in F sharp minor on TV, then I rediscovered them in F minor with CDs and internet ... And now I hear them almost in E minor in Kai: -)
If you were watching clips on youtube, then it's likely whoever uploaded them adjusted the pitch of the audio as a means of automatic copyright flag prevention.

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Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:33 pm

Danfun64 wrote:Strange. It always seemed to me that the music in Kikuchi Kai was the right pitch. Maybe the sources you watch Kai in have it sped up to 25fps without changing pitch, then reverting to 24fps or 24000/1001 fps with a pitch change.
That's possible. The Catalàn version of Kai TFC was sped up and sounds really weird how the music goes by so fast.

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Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:17 pm

ManuGem wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:20 pm
Many of these BGMs are in F minor, so I used to hear them in F sharp minor on TV, then I rediscovered them in F minor with CDs and internet ... And now I hear them almost in E minor in Kai: -)
Excellent, someone else who noticed it. However I didn't hear much of a difference in pitch, it still sounded the same.

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Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by Valerius Dover » Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:11 pm

There's definitely no difference in pitch with the tracks. Can clarify that I own both Z and Kai DVDs.
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Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:14 pm

ManuGem wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:20 pm
One thing I noticed (but I watched Kai only by streaming wabsites + excerpts on youtube) is that these BGMs from Kikuchi in Kai seem pretty low pitched, compared to the original, that sounds often almost half a tone lower.

It's disturbing, because when DBZ was on french television, it was exactly the opposite: the BGM sounded high-pitched, I think it's because of a difference in format (number of images per second) compared to japanese television.
Many of these BGMs are in F minor, so I used to hear them in F sharp minor on TV, then I rediscovered them in F minor with CDs and internet ... And now I hear them almost in E minor in Kai: -)
That's all a video-reformatting thing.

The standard framerate for NTSC video, which is what North America, South America, and Japan use, is 24 frames per second. On the other hand, the PAL video format, which is what Europe uses, is 25 frames per second. An easy way to convert NTSC footage to PAL footage is to simply speed the footage up by 4.something% (not sure of the exact difference). Speeding up footage results in its accompanying audio sounding higher-pitched, by approximately one semi-tone.

So, all that to say, as a consequence of converting NTSC footage to PAL footage, the footage is sped up and slightly higher pitched in a lot of European dubs as a result--not just dubs of DBZ for that matter, but of all dubs of stuff that was originally in NTSC format and converted to PAL format.

However, during the format conversion process, some companies take the liberty of lowering the pitch by the same amount that the film is sped up by. When that happens, while the footage is still a tad faster than it was in Japan, the original pitch of the music is at least retained. I've also heard there's a more complicated telecine process for converting NTSC to PAL where both the original pitch and the original speed of the film are maintained, but that this is not the preferable option because it results in some quality loss.

So, that leaves us with three conversion methods:

Method 1: Speed the film up while also raising the pitch.
Method 2: Speed the film up, but without raising the pitch.
Method 3: The telecine process.

Now, back to what you mentioned earlier. You said you saw these clips on YouTube, right? Well, for whatever reason, one of the most popularly-shared sources of video for the French dub of Kai is PAL footage that was slowed back down to NTSC speed. The thing is, in the case of the French dub of Kai, the producers did what I mentioned earlier--sped up the framerate, but lowered the pitch so that it would be the same pitch as in the original Japanese version. So, when that PAL footage that kept the original pitch was slowed down to NTSC speed, the pitch was also lowered.

In other words, the French dub of Kai converted the footage from NTSC to PAL using Method 2, but the clips that are commonly posted online are clips that were re-converted to NTSC using the opposite of Method 1--slowing down the footage and lowering the pitch. This created the misconception that the music was "lower" than it was in DBZ.
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